724 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

Hypertion wrote...

if assult rifles were improved so the Avenger had a lvl X DPS of 500 or so, i think that assult rifles would start to shine as what they were intended as. pure DPS weapons.

You have to increase the damage per shot of Avenger X to 60 (~+25%) to get single clip DPS of 500.  And that would still be less than every single pistol (although oddly it weighs less than some pistols, which is silly for a rifle as compared to a sidearm).

[datako12]

Manuel La Bor wrote...

It takes the passives from a turian (weapondamage/headshots/weapondamage), a HCB, berzerker package V, any ammo lvl 3, and at least rail amp 1, plus the multiplicitive headshot bonus from marksman to get 1 shot headshots on every non boss with graal X. Serious damage stacking but can be done. 

you sure it requires that much? the highest health on headshottable enemies are hunters, pyros, and phantoms, all right around 4300 total health/shields/armor/barrier

now a graal X with a HCB and +20% weapon damage from passives, and +20% to headshots from passives, would do 1740 damage without headshot and 4698 with all spike hitting for a headshot

now shield gate, each spike on a headshot would be doing 783 damage, a phantoms barrier is 2362, which is greater than 783 x 3 (2349), so 4 spikes for the barrier, leaving 2 spikes to take out 1687 points of health, cant quite do it, add any sore of boost, rail amp 1, ammo power 1, and it would become 3 spikes for barrier, and 3 for health, easy dead.  hunters, 2278 shields, 3 spikes for that, 2025 health, 3 more spike for that, dead hunter. pyros 2633 shields, so 4 spikes, 1575 health just over 2 spikes, add a rail amp or something

so unless my numbers are wrong, it doesnt take that much damage stacking to 1 headshot with a charged graal
got my enemy health stats from here,  feel free to correct anything if i messed it up

Modifié par datako12, 30 juin 2012 - 04:02 .

[Hypertion]

gotta "start" somewhere right?

but point is for sure that assult rifles should shine best in their DPS abilitys.

[Grunt_Platform]

Pure DPS? Hm. It had always been my read that, like in the real world, the point of assault rifles in ME was flexibility. With controlled bursts you get extreme accuracy, and by holding down the trigger you get tons of damage but basically no accuracy to speak of.

Still, buff them to nearly the "pure DPS" levels and you get the same result. The handling of most every assault rifle is actually perfect, if they just did more damage per bullet. Care does need to be taken that they don't outshine pistols and sniper rifles entirely, mind. The relationship between the Saber and the Paladin is an excellent model case for that (AR slightly only out-damages lighter weight pistol, but also has a better rate of fire and capacity).

[Hypertion]

EvanKester wrote...

Pure DPS? Hm. It had always been my read that, like in the real world, the point of assault rifles in ME was flexibility. With controlled bursts you get extreme accuracy, and by holding down the trigger you get tons of damage but basically no accuracy to speak of.

Still, buff them to nearly the "pure DPS" levels and you get the same result. The handling of most every assault rifle is actually perfect, if they just did more damage per bullet. Care does need to be taken that they don't outshine pistols and sniper rifles entirely, mind. The relationship between the Saber and the Paladin is an excellent model case for that (AR slightly only out-damages lighter weight pistol, but also has a better rate of fire and capacity).

true. but atm where they have their Flexability does seems to work, the only thing they lack is the damage and DPS that they need to be compettive vs the other weapon classes.

the other factors that control how they work are perfectly fine save the damage potential.

right now the fact that assult rifles have some issues in terms of their DPS is the only issue most of them truely have..

not ammo or anything else, just a lack of DPS potential. Which is purely due to lack of Damage on the weapons.

Modifié par Hypertion, 30 juin 2012 - 06:46 .

[GaryMaple]

Something I've seen suggested lately is a new SMG mod that acts like the armor piercing mods, but with shielding and barriers.

[Manuel La Bor]

datako12 wrote...

Manuel La Bor wrote...

It takes the passives from a turian (weapondamage/headshots/weapondamage), a HCB, berzerker package V, any ammo lvl 3, and at least rail amp 1, plus the multiplicitive headshot bonus from marksman to get 1 shot headshots on every non boss with graal X. Serious damage stacking but can be done. 

you sure it requires that much? the highest health on headshottable enemies are hunters, pyros, and phantoms, all right around 4300 total health/shields/armor/barrier

now a graal X with a HCB and +20% weapon damage from passives, and +20% to headshots from passives, would do 1740 damage without headshot and 4698 with all spike hitting for a headshot

now shield gate, each spike on a headshot would be doing 783 damage, a phantoms barrier is 2362, which is greater than 783 x 3 (2349), so 4 spikes for the barrier, leaving 2 spikes to take out 1687 points of health, cant quite do it, add any sore of boost, rail amp 1, ammo power 1, and it would become 3 spikes for barrier, and 3 for health, easy dead.  hunters, 2278 shields, 3 spikes for that, 2025 health, 3 more spike for that, dead hunter. pyros 2633 shields, so 4 spikes, 1575 health just over 2 spikes, add a rail amp or something

so unless my numbers are wrong, it doesnt take that much damage stacking to 1 headshot with a charged graal
got my enemy health stats from here,  feel free to correct anything if i messed it up

I used grimy bunyips me3 calc, it might be wrong though. Either way, the graal is a great gun if you're hosting. 

[datako12]

Manuel La Bor wrote...

datako12 wrote...

Manuel La Bor wrote...

It takes the passives from a turian (weapondamage/headshots/weapondamage), a HCB, berzerker package V, any ammo lvl 3, and at least rail amp 1, plus the multiplicitive headshot bonus from marksman to get 1 shot headshots on every non boss with graal X. Serious damage stacking but can be done. 

you sure it requires that much? the highest health on headshottable enemies are hunters, pyros, and phantoms, all right around 4300 total health/shields/armor/barrier

now a graal X with a HCB and +20% weapon damage from passives, and +20% to headshots from passives, would do 1740 damage without headshot and 4698 with all spike hitting for a headshot

now shield gate, each spike on a headshot would be doing 783 damage, a phantoms barrier is 2362, which is greater than 783 x 3 (2349), so 4 spikes for the barrier, leaving 2 spikes to take out 1687 points of health, cant quite do it, add any sore of boost, rail amp 1, ammo power 1, and it would become 3 spikes for barrier, and 3 for health, easy dead.  hunters, 2278 shields, 3 spikes for that, 2025 health, 3 more spike for that, dead hunter. pyros 2633 shields, so 4 spikes, 1575 health just over 2 spikes, add a rail amp or something

so unless my numbers are wrong, it doesnt take that much damage stacking to 1 headshot with a charged graal
got my enemy health stats from here,  feel free to correct anything if i messed it up

I used grimy bunyips me3 calc, it might be wrong though. Either way, the graal is a great gun if you're hosting. 

i just looked at grimy's calc, its both right and wrong, he doesnt factor charging in at all for the graal, so if you're looking for 1 shot headshots without charging, you need a lot of stacking, much less so if you actually charge the gun

[Manuel La Bor]

datako12 wrote...

Manuel La Bor wrote...

datako12 wrote...

Manuel La Bor wrote...

It takes the passives from a turian (weapondamage/headshots/weapondamage), a HCB, berzerker package V, any ammo lvl 3, and at least rail amp 1, plus the multiplicitive headshot bonus from marksman to get 1 shot headshots on every non boss with graal X. Serious damage stacking but can be done. 

you sure it requires that much? the highest health on headshottable enemies are hunters, pyros, and phantoms, all right around 4300 total health/shields/armor/barrier

now a graal X with a HCB and +20% weapon damage from passives, and +20% to headshots from passives, would do 1740 damage without headshot and 4698 with all spike hitting for a headshot

now shield gate, each spike on a headshot would be doing 783 damage, a phantoms barrier is 2362, which is greater than 783 x 3 (2349), so 4 spikes for the barrier, leaving 2 spikes to take out 1687 points of health, cant quite do it, add any sore of boost, rail amp 1, ammo power 1, and it would become 3 spikes for barrier, and 3 for health, easy dead.  hunters, 2278 shields, 3 spikes for that, 2025 health, 3 more spike for that, dead hunter. pyros 2633 shields, so 4 spikes, 1575 health just over 2 spikes, add a rail amp or something

so unless my numbers are wrong, it doesnt take that much damage stacking to 1 headshot with a charged graal
got my enemy health stats from here,  feel free to correct anything if i messed it up

I used grimy bunyips me3 calc, it might be wrong though. Either way, the graal is a great gun if you're hosting. 

i just looked at grimy's calc, its both right and wrong, he doesnt factor charging in at all for the graal, so if you're looking for 1 shot headshots without charging, you need a lot of stacking, much less so if you actually charge the gun

Well, he does have one of the variables set to charge shot or not. I did the calculations without charging. With charging you probably only need passives to one shot headshot everything. 

[Hypertion]

i will say this.. the fact that there are guns that are effective only for "hosts" is a issue. but not one of balancing so much why is why i am letting the Grall drop for now.

[joker_jack]

Hypertion wrote...

i will say this.. the fact that there are guns that are effective only for "hosts" is a issue. but not one of balancing so much why is why i am letting the Grall drop for now.

I think that is representative of the bigger issue at hand. With many of the guns, powers and classes, they need to have this off host issue fixed before anything. Many of us for and against the nerfs and buffs I think will find middle ground at least in the fact of that bug needs to be fixed. 

One thing I've been animate about is a simple ping meter. This would be a way of seeing the best/worst connections and from there players can try get the best connection. A ping meter wouldn't be ment to be a permant fix, so much as a start to improving netcode and hopefully better hardware on the server end. For now at least if players can see connection type we can try and get a lobby with the best possible connections on all player ends until the server end is fixed.

[Hypertion]

Lag Caused Issues are not simple fixes like what can be done in the weekly balance changes.

while having that listed as a change would help bring attention to them im not really sure it fits this topic..

its not my topic so i cant make any assumptions.

Modifié par Hypertion, 01 juillet 2012 - 12:43 .

[ShadowRanger88]

It's probably been said before, But something to implement into the patches would definitely be a latency/ping meter. Something simple like a ms number or CoD style 4 bars. This would allow everyone to have less issue with latency problems, less hosting glitches.

Edit: There's also one minor change I was thinking about. I think the falcon's fire rate should be increased ever so slightly, from 50 to around 60-75. It's honestly a little too slow at the moment.

Modifié par ShadowRanger88, 01 juillet 2012 - 09:27 .

[capn233]

EvanKester wrote...

Pure DPS? Hm. It had always been my read that, like in the real world, the point of assault rifles in ME was flexibility. With controlled bursts you get extreme accuracy, and by holding down the trigger you get tons of damage but basically no accuracy to speak of.

Still, buff them to nearly the "pure DPS" levels and you get the same result. The handling of most every assault rifle is actually perfect, if they just did more damage per bullet. Care does need to be taken that they don't outshine pistols and sniper rifles entirely, mind. The relationship between the Saber and the Paladin is an excellent model case for that (AR slightly only out-damages lighter weight pistol, but also has a better rate of fire and capacity).

I think I agree here, but only if I am interpreting correctly.

The way they should have been implemented is that the accuracy linearly degrades with the length of the burst over a reasonable burst length.  Practically it doesn't work like that.  You have something like GPS is that is practically a laser to Revenant which sprays wildly regardless of burst length.  Then some in the middle.  I am not familiar enough with the workings of the accuracy and recoil variables to propose specific changes there, unfortunately.  Suffice it to say I think that if you fired a Revenant in 5rd bursts, I think that you should be able to land nearly all shots on target at reasonable range, whereas if you tried to "clip dump" it you would end up spraying around the target before you reached the end of the clip.

I don't disagree that you could balance them by simply increasing damage per shot (although in some cases weight increase to go along with that may indeed be warranted from a balance and philosophical standpoint).  Most have a real long way to go before they make pistols obsolete though.

From a design perspective, I think SMG's should have much faster reticle bloom and lower max accuracy than AR's near accross the board save the Locust and Geth SMG... but of course the weight and rate of fire advantage as compared to an AR.  It would help if ULM worked as that would make the weight difference even more substantial from a total build perspective.

[Grunt_Platform]

capn233 wrote...
I think I agree here, but only if I am interpreting correctly.

The way they should have been implemented is that the accuracy linearly degrades with the length of the burst over a reasonable burst length.  Practically it doesn't work like that.  You have something like GPS is that is practically a laser to Revenant which sprays wildly regardless of burst length.  Then some in the middle.  I am not familiar enough with the workings of the accuracy and recoil variables to propose specific changes there, unfortunately.  Suffice it to say I think that if you fired a Revenant in 5rd bursts, I think that you should be able to land nearly all shots on target at reasonable range, whereas if you tried to "clip dump" it you would end up spraying around the target before you reached the end of the clip.

I don't disagree that you could balance them by simply increasing damage per shot (although in some cases weight increase to go along with that may indeed be warranted from a balance and philosophical standpoint).  Most have a real long way to go before they make pistols obsolete though.

From a design perspective, I think SMG's should have much faster reticle bloom and lower max accuracy than AR's near accross the board save the Locust and Geth SMG... but of course the weight and rate of fire advantage as compared to an AR.  It would help if ULM worked as that would make the weight difference even more substantial from a total build perspective.

Yeah, I think we agree.

I don't think the handling of ARs is a problem though. The Avenger actually has some pretty nice handling, if only it did decent enough damage to not be solidly outclassed by every other light weight weapon.. though I think improving the other ARs is a higher priority.

Modifié par EvanKester, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:06 .

[Deathshroud09]

Hmm, like the increased lift number on barrier, but i think it may need a little more.....whats the force amount on it?

Maybe add a little more force and/or damage to make barrier detonating more of a viable playstyle?

Also, can it detonate biotic explosions, it should.....just as tech armour should detonate tech bursts (if it dosent already).

[Hypertion]

Cap hit it on the Head for sure.

Assults can deal burst DPS for accuracy or Sustained DPS at lower Accuracy... the problem is that most ARs are too static in how they play, as well as having a base Damage and Resulting DPS to really live true to that.

i think the Harrier might be the only True AR we have.. so lets use that as a baseline...

i also agree on the note about SMGs

Modifié par Hypertion, 02 juillet 2012 - 11:34 .

[Metal Vile]

The real issue is that this game doesn't use gradual Cone of Fire bloom to represent accuracy. Thus, balancing a gun thats normally full auto around varying levels of accuracy based on burst length doesn't work. If I fire only 3-4 rounds from my Revenant, it's not significantly more accurate than if I just hold the trigger. And even if it DID improve accuracy significantly, the gun's DPS would suffer terribly, as all of those weapon are assuming full-auto fire for their per clip DPS atm.

I'd agree the the Harrier feels like a "true assault rifle" and that its a good model to work from, but most of the other weapons are just so different in style that in order to make them as good, they'd just end up being slightly different Harrier clones. Especially anything Full Auto.

An option that, as far as I know, hasn't really been talked about yet is to give Assault Rifles something to differ them from SMGs besides being heavier. Right now, the only thing they really get is a Stability mod and a Piercing mod, but evidence has surfaced that BW might be thinking about adding new, rare weapon mods, including an SMG piercing mod.

If true, it would essentially render half of the current Assault Rifles pointless; a Tempest with piercing and ammo mods would defeat nearly every full-auto rifle that isn't the Harrier.

How are Assault Rifles supposed to be different from SMGs? Well, it was mentioned that they're supposed to be versatile; which is how the discussion about accuracy through burst fire started in the first place. But, as I already mentioned, I find that unfeasible as a balancing factor, because the game doesn't do CoF bloom well. I would, instead, propose that we give ALL Assault Rifles something that most of them desperately need to be damage viable anyways; reduced damage reduction from Armor.

If ALL Assault Rifle treated Armor Reduction as only half of it's normal value (7.5 on Bronze, 15 on Silver, 25 on Gold, which could then be even FURTHER augmented with the piercing mod to essentially negate Armor entirely) Assault Rifles would once again return to their place as the "All rounder" weapon category without having to give them outsized damage buffs and making them directly competitive against SMGs.

SMGs (with perhaps a small damage buff for the weaker members) would then serve at the "pure DPS" weapon category. High DPS weapons designed for mowing through mook packs, but they continue to struggle against Armored bosses because of armor. Assault Rifles will then serve as the "one weapon is enough" category; sufficient ammunition and rapid-fire capability to defeat mooks, while having the ability to easily circumvent Armor to deal reasonable damage to bosses.

It stands to reason that, with this change, Assault Rifles would have to be re-evaluted for their over-all damage potential. But I firmly believe a mechanic like this would serve to differentiate Assault Rifles from SMGs without having to give them inflated DPS value to pad their low per-bullet damage.

EDIT:  There are, of course, some Assault Rifles that wouldn't benefit much, or at all from this change.  These include the Falcon and the Striker (no effect) as well as the Saber (minimal effect). 

The Saber's damage is already quite impressive; I don't think anything really needs to be done here, as it does TECHNICALLY benefit from the change, albeit minimally.

As for the Falcon and the Striker, who already ignored armor, I would say some buff is in order to compensate, some like 5-6% and 10-12% respectively.

Modifié par Metal Vile, 02 juillet 2012 - 11:57 .

[Grunt_Platform]

That's not a bad idea, but it would call for a patch to add the innate AP. By the way, assault rifles do have cone of fire bloom, it's really apparent on the Avenger.

So I'm looking at the DPS values, and a 20% damage boost for the Avenger, Phaeston and Revenant would put them in line with the Harrier. So for the round of ARs we could get:

Geth Pulse Rifle (25%, from earlier in the thread)
- Damage increased from [24.1-30.1] to [30.1-37.6]
- Weight increased from [1.0-0.5] to [1.1-0.6]

Avenger Assault Rifle
- Damage increased from [38.6-38.2] to [46.3-57.8] (Very slightly better DPS than the Carnifex, not accounting for accuracy.)

Phaeston Assault Rifle
- Damage increased from [38.1-47.6] to [45.7-57.1]

For the Revenant.. I'd look at:
- Zoom aim error reduced from [1.2-2.5] to [0.35-2.5]
or
- Damage increased from [63.6-79.5] to [76.3-95.4]

With the Revenant's recoil and rate of fire, it should still veer wildly off target when fired on full auto, but by reducing it's minimum zoomed aim error it could actually hit the broad side of the barn with a little trigger discipline. It would still do less damage per bullet than the Mattock, and so you would have to get close on full-auto to do decent damage. It's a feel change, but it would put it closer to its behavior in Mass Effect 2.

[EDIT:] It's also possible to improve the Revenant's close range DPS without improving its long range power too much, just restore its 700 RPM from ME2, and reduce recoil to 0.38 to keep its recoil rate at ~266. This ups its theoretical DPS to 827.54 (with reload cancelling) and 1,066.33  (Simple), from its current values: R-DPS 679.25, simple DPS: 861.25. 

Depending on how it handles with these changes, a weight increase back up to 2.0-1.4 or more might be appropriate.

Modifié par EvanKester, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:14 .

[capn233]

You should be able to surpass all pistol DPS with even basic AR's. Especially something like Carnifex which doesn't actually have the greatest paper DPS. Single shot damage is drastically higher on Carnifex than what you get in any of the AR's, which is an advantage even if paper DPS is lower... less out of cover time. Also given that enemy health is (usually) a fixed number, shots to kill matter and are not as simple as a DPS number suggests, at least for slower ROF weapons. This is why Viper can remain pseudo-useful despite it's woeful stats... it has enough damage to be decent in killing basics with headshots.

I do not think it would be absurd to move Avenger closer to 700 d/s calculated given the relative weight compared to a pistol, accuracy and role. This would move the level X damage more in the neighborhood of 84 ([68.7-84]) per shot... Predator and Phalanx are still notably lighter, and most of the heavy pistols do substantially more damage per shot.

If you think that sounds a little crazy, then I would argue that it is crazier that Predator has the same ROF as the Avenger, and yet does better damage per shot with less than half the weight. If any class should have been about versatility and been the closest to "having your cake and eating it too" it should have been the AR's, not the pistols.

If you are dead set against that much damage per shot, then give the Avenger more ROF than the Predator. Really the lowest automatic ROF in the AR category should have been 600. So perhaps adjust to [55.9-70] and 600rpm.

edit:  yes this also means that Phaeston, GPR and Vindicator need to go up a bit too.

GPR: [40.1-50.1]

Phaeston: [49.7-62.1] and 700rpm

Vindicator: [74.2-92.7]

Modifié par capn233, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:12 .

[Grunt_Platform]

Honestly, I think the Revenant and the GPR should have thee market cornered on high-ROF assault rifles. For really high rates of fire, SMGs are the way to go. [EDIT: The handling on most ARs is already good, they don't generally need an ROF boost. The Predator and Arc Pistol are the mutants of the pistol family. The Avenger, GPR and Phaeston are way more accurate than they're usually given credit for, and have far better rates of fire than the vast majority of weapons. Only reason I proposed a small boost to the Revenant is since its niche is to be a short-range monster, and there were concerns about making it too good at longer ranges.]

And yeah, shots to kill/time to kill are an important factor, as is exposure time. Every weapon that depends on sustained fire to get its kills is innately weaker than the Carnifex and Paladin, which can duck behind cover between shots without losing much of their DPS.

[EDIT:] Also keep in mind that the Predator has worse accuracy and stronger recoil than the Avenger, and is semi-auto. Most players won't be firing it at nearly 500 rounds per minute. 

Modifié par EvanKester, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:38 .

[capn233]

EvanKester wrote...

Honestly, I think the Revenant and the GPR should have thee market cornered on high-ROF assault rifles. For really high rates of fire, SMGs are the way to go.

And yeah, shots to kill/time to kill are an important factor, as is exposure time. Every weapon that depends on sustained fire to get its kills is innately weaker than the Carnifex and Paladin, which can duck behind cover between shots without losing much of their DPS.

EDIT: Also keep in mind that the Predator has worse accuracy and stronger recoil than the Avenger, and is semi-auto. Most players won't be firing it at nearly 500 rounds per minute. 

I don't find the Predator useful whatsoever if you aren't firing it near max ROF.  But it still is nearly weightless.

As for cornering the market, maybe.  But of course SMG's also weigh less than AR's, and would in theory be able to be made substantially lighter with ULM.  The weight has to be a factor here, not just ROF.  But if anything I think this again hiighlights a design problem with the transition of the weapons from ME2 to ME3.  Why doesn't Tempest have an ROF of 925rpm?  Why did basically all the autos take a rate of fire cut?

Modifié par capn233, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:38 .

[samb]

Is this still being updated?  I don't see anything about the combat drone in the OP yet the TC changes were put up.

GodlessPalidin wrote extensivily on the vanguard and yet no real disscussion has taken place.  Is this because it is basically unplayable with the glitch or is everyone happy with them as is?  I personally don't see them in games at all anymore, and figured it was a symtoms of them just being ineffective and/or having a really high learning curve.  Either way it needs an adjustment.

[Grunt_Platform]

Just tried it out to confirm and... the Phaeston's already a pretty good gun. I'd say it's actually better than the Revenant at staggering enemies. Giving it both a 25% damage boost and 100 more rounds per minute is a tad overkill. Remember that the thing is accurate enough that even at full auto it tends to score a lot of headshots. I think a damage boost is plenty. I don't think it would break the game at those levels, but the gun's got enough punch, and staggers enough to get away with firing on full auto pretty consistently.

[GodlessPaladin]

samb wrote...
Is this still being updated?  I don't see anything about the combat drone in the OP yet the TC changes were put up.

I will keep updating it, just not terribly quickly.   Moreover, there's a lot of discussion threads going on in the Balance All The Things discussion group and I have to sift through hundreds of posts at a time there.  As for the combat drone and sentry turret I'd like more feedback on what people think of their latest, newly buffed iterations.  Has anyone come up with any particularly successful builds or strategies using the Drone or Turret?  Any videos or anything?  I tried out a coupla options so far and they still seemed rather underwhelming (especially the sentry turret).

GodlessPalidin wrote extensivily on the vanguard and yet no real disscussion has taken place.  Is this because it is basically unplayable with the glitch or is everyone happy with them as is?  I personally don't see them in games at all anymore, and figured it was a symtoms of them just being ineffective and/or having a really high learning curve.  Either way it needs an adjustment.

There was a lot of Vanguard debate and discussion in a coupla other threads before this got put up.  Anyways, so far the feedback I've gotten is that most seem to agree on the Vanguard suggestions that are posted in the OP.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:04 .