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[GodlessPaladin]

Updated with a new Tactical Cloak tweak suggestion.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 07 juillet 2012 - 03:38 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Updated with a Sticky Grenade Evolution 6 duration buff and an Arc Grenade radius nerf. With this nerf, players can choose between either their old damage with Evolution 1 or almost their old radius (7.8m) with Evolution 2, but not both.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 09 juillet 2012 - 10:56 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Some discussion from the "Balance ALL the things!" group.

Gold Card Weapon Tiers:
The Krysae, Reegar, Claymore, Geth Plasma Shotgun, Carnifex, Hornet, Arc Pistol, Geth Pulse Rifle, Revenant, Falcon, Geth Plasma SMG, Kishok, Striker, Graal Spike Thrower, Disciple, and Widow should be of roughly equal effectiveness.

Amongst these we have a few tiers. Roughly speaking, they are:
Tier 1 gold weapons have outstanding unique qualities and firepower, and are able to accomplish feats unlike any other weapon. This tier includes the Krysae Sniper Rifle and the Reegar Carbine.
Tier 2 gold weapons have a very high potential and remain relevant in the face of high rank black card weapons. This tier includes the Claymore, Geth Plasma Shotgun, Carnifex and Graal Spike Thrower.
Tier 3 gold weapons are solid, but lose some relevance in the face of high rank black card weapons. This tier includes the Arc Pistol, Hornet and Revenant.
Tier 4 gold weapons are easily outclassed by competitors or perform a role that is of comparably limited usefulness. This tier includes the Widow, Kishok, Disciple, Geth Pulse Rifle, Geth Plasma SMG, and Striker.

IMHO, Tier 2 is the ideal position for gold cards.

Black Card Weapon Tiers:
The Harrier, Saber, Eagle, Scorpion, Talon, Paladin, Crusader, Wraith, Valiant, Indra, Javelin, and Black Widow should be of roughly equal effectiveness

Amongst these we have a few tiers. Roughly speaking, they are:
Tier 1 black weapons are top of the line additions to your arsenal with unquestionable utility to many characters. They are relatively lightweight, versatile, and hit very hard. This tier includes the Harrier, Hurricane, and Talon.
Tier 2 black weapons fall a bit behind Tier 1. This tier includes the Saber, Paladin, and Wraith.
Tier 3 black weapons are niche weapons which find relatively little use outside of the hands of Infiltrators (which isn't to say that they're worse than tier 2!). This tier includes the Indra, Black Widow, Valiant, and maybe the Scorpion.
Tier 4 black weapons are of questionable relevance when compared to many gold weapons. This tier includes the Crusader, Eagle, and Javelin.

Tier 1 could be candidates for small nerfs, Tier 4 should be buffed. Tier 3 could stand to be made more accessible to non-Infiltrators. 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 10 juillet 2012 - 02:41 .

[Ben Richards]

Okay, I've read the OP's posts, but I don't really have the time to read all 28 pages of this thread, so I apologise if these suggestions have already been mentioned.

I pretty much agree with everything that has been suggested, except this:

GodlessPaladin wrote...

· Vanguards should be immune to Sync Kills during Biotic Charge and for, say, 0.5 seconds afterwards.

I feel that there are plenty of tactical opportunities for safe use of Biotic Charge against enemies that can Sync Kill you. I feel that making Sync Kills easier to avoid would just encourage mindless spam and make the enemies in question much easier to pick off for you and your teammates due to the fact that you could occupy it indefinitely with (what would be) essentially risk-free Biotic Charges. To elaborate, here is a list of instances where Biotic Charge can be used whilst avoiding the risk of being Sync Killed:

Banshee
- When staggered
- When screaming
- When performing her Nova (AoE) attack
- When performing her Warp-like (biotic projectile) attack
- When "blocking" power projectiles such as Throw, Incinerate etc. (performing a Biotic Charge at this point is ineffective in terms of dealing damage, but it can be useful for regenerating Barriers and distracting the Banshee to help an endangered teammate for instance)
- When Sync Killing other players (I guess that counts, right?)
- When you are not the one being targeted (I think)

Brute
- When staggered
- When performing a "gorilla shout"
- When performing a charging attack
- When performing a melee attack
- When Sync Killing other players
- When you are not the one being targeted (I think)

Atlas
- When staggered
- When "hiding behind their shoulder"
- When firing a rocket
- When performing a melee attack
- When Sync Killing other players
- When you are not the one being targeted (I think)

Phantom
- When staggered
- When performing a melee attack
- When performing combat rolls
- When in cover (I think)
- When using ladders, elevating to higher levels, or dropping down to lower levels
- When activating their Barrier Gauntlet (performing a Biotic Charge at this point is ineffective in terms of dealing damage, but it can be useful for regenerating Barriers and distracting the Phantom to help an endangered teammate for instance)
- When her sword is destroyed
- When Sync Killing other players
- When you are not the one being targeted (I think)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Game balance aside, I would like to see the user interface updated so that classes with deployable turrets can see how much damage their turret has taken (or if their turret has been destroyed) so that they know when to deploy another one. I find myself continually checking the location where I deployed my turret just to see if it is still active. It would be much more convenient if the game gave you a visual and audible cue to let you know that a turret is damaged or destroyed.

Modifié par Ben Richards, 16 juillet 2012 - 02:13 .

[A Wild Snorlax]

No nerfs to arc grenades pl0x, they'll need their radius on platinum.

I'm pre-emptively calling that the piranha is going to need a buff >

[GGW KillerTiger]

Wait we got platinum difficulty coming! Now we have to balance everything based on platinum! Scrub everything and start from scratch!

[Ben Richards]

Two other things I forgot to mention:

Geth Pyros

Buff them so that they cannot be killed using grab. They are extremely slow and completely harmless unless they get right next to you. They also cannot close the distance as safely as a Geth Hunter (due to Tactical Cloak). Allowing players to kill them using grab hard counters them too much as they are exclusively close combatants. Being an Armoured enemy, it would also be consistent with other Armoured enemies that can't be killed using grab.

About Staggering Players

In my opinion the player should never ever be staggered by weapons fire. The reason why I think this is because it is just frustrating more than anything. You can't take cover, use powers, melee, return fire, or even move. It reduces the effectiveness of certain melee classes too severely (such as Krogans and Batarians), particularly against Geth where:

- Geth Primes stagger and deal a lot of damage
- Geth Rocket Troopers stagger and deal a lot of damage
- Geth Hunters stagger and deal a lot of damage
- Geth Pyros deal insane damage (they don't stagger, but it is very dangerous to engage them in close combat)

I'd say just remove the stagger effect and have the weapons deal more damage. This way players at least have the chance to do something to avoid dying instead of just standing there waiting for the stagger to wear off. The only case where I think weapons fire should still stagger is in the case of the Atlas' rocket launcher because there is plenty of time to try and avoid it, as well as the Atlas being vulnerable to attack as it is firing the rocket.

Staggering the player after a melee attack is fine because the enemy performing the melee attack cannot inflict damage as they are doing so, and is vulnerable to being attacked by other players. It is usually also the case of the player being careless by not being aware of their surroundings, so it acts as a nice motivational factor to do so.

[Amano Kazumi]

Paladin, what do you feel are the most urgent balance changes? The ones that should happen ASAP? Is it nerfing the top tier, buffing the bottom tier, making lackluster skills shine? Personally I think the characters are at the core of playing the game, and thus I'd like to see the Drell Vanguard and Batarian Sentinel beefed up before any other change.

[Jezter666]

Hi, thanks for this excellent post! Shame I only got to see them now. I agree with most changes you have outlined.

My suggestion for SMGS:
A rate of fire mod. It seems Bioware has intended SMGs to be anti-shield, anti-barrier weapons due to their higher rate of fire and high capacity. I believe an ROF mod would indicrectly give SMGs a damage boost without making them effective for armor. I think this would work well with the current SMGs high capacity, high ROF stats.

Thanks!

[Manuel La Bor]

Jezter666 wrote...

Hi, thanks for this excellent post! Shame I only got to see them now. I agree with most changes you have outlined.

My suggestion for SMGS:
A rate of fire mod. It seems Bioware has intended SMGs to be anti-shield, anti-barrier weapons due to their higher rate of fire and high capacity. I believe an ROF mod would indicrectly give SMGs a damage boost without making them effective for armor. I think this would work well with the current SMGs high capacity, high ROF stats.

Thanks!

I love the idea, but it would make the hurricane even better than it is now. Which is borderline insane as it is. 

But, otoh - the tempest and gpsmg would benefit from it quite a bit. The hornet/shuriken not so much due to refire time, and the locust not at all due to having at best a 36 round clip and abysmal damage. The gpsmg might also benefit, but not much since it already does pretty terrible dps even with marksman. 

[GodlessPaladin]

Amano Kazumi wrote...

Paladin, what do you feel are the most urgent balance changes? The ones that should happen ASAP? Is it nerfing the top tier, buffing the bottom tier, making lackluster skills shine? Personally I think the characters are at the core of playing the game, and thus I'd like to see the Drell Vanguard and Batarian Sentinel beefed up before any other change.

Well, I'm not sure where I stand on a lot of balance issues yet now that Platinum has just been released and fundamentally changed the balance dynamic (not to mention the addition of new gears, weapons, and characters).  Before that though, I'd have said the most important change would have been buffing melee.  It's a tree everyone has and yet it's underpowered for almost everyone.  Melee has really needed an improvement for a long time.   For many characters, melee requires a great deal of build resource investment to maximize, along with high risk, and yet the reward is next to nothing.

Anyways, right now the thing on the agenda is to go over the new content and go through the new difficulty with various teams and characters, and then update the thread based on that.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 18 juillet 2012 - 08:09 .

[Elias_007]

Has BW even implemented the balances? Because this seems like too much work for you guys without even a notice.

[Elias_007]

BTW these are great balances I hope BW really does use it!

[UB3RD4NG]

N7 Slayer and Turian Soldier need some major changes; they just have no synergy right now, especially when directly superior options such as smashguard and N7 Destroyer are available. That's not even for Platinum, but for all levels of the game.

[Hypertion]

Elias_007 wrote...

Has BW even implemented the balances? Because this seems like too much work for you guys without even a notice.

the TC changes and many others were here long before they were implemented.

its very likley that they were implemented because of this topic.

[Khuutra]

UB3RD4NG wrote...

N7 Slayer and Turian Soldier need some major changes; they just have no synergy right now, especially when directly superior options such as smashguard and N7 Destroyer are available. That's not even for Platinum, but for all levels of the game.

I don't have the Slayer yet but I'd argue that this isn't the case for the Turian Soldier; it's not fantastic, but it's a class that directly benefits every time they introduce a new gun. The TS with Marksman specc'd for Accuracy can carry a Piranha with a Smart Choke into battle and top score lists on Gold in the hands of a competent player; that one weapon alone made it one of the highest DPS classes in the game.

What would you improve about the Turian Soldier that hasn't been outlined already?

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Some ideas for improving the paladin's shield:

1) Make the shield regenerate a certain number of hit points per second. Maybe based on the paladin's number of shields. Or even based on the difficulty level, to keep the shield viable in each difficulty level.

2) Allow the paladin to move slowly with the shield deployed. He should be a tank, not a stationary wall.

3) Give the paladin some damage reduction when the shield is deployed. He is easily flanked or gibbed from behind.

4) Allow the paladin to use his powers when the shield is deployed, but at a higher cooldown rate.

5) Allow use of one handed weapons when the shield is deployed.

6) A small AOE explosion (type based on the level 6 evolution chosen) when the shield is destroyed.

[UB3RD4NG]

The Turian soldier is very capable of carrying a gold game as you said, but it's the fact that Devastator mode has been introduced, which is a direct analog of marksman, but can be TOGGLED. All of the soldier's powers are great by themselves, but have no synergy. That was a recognized issue before, but now it is made all the more glaring by the direct comparison to Devastator mode. Add in the fact that shoulder missiles and multi-frags require no cooldown, and The destroyer's presence now makes the Turian soldier obsolete in just about every way.

In my OP I didn't state that slayer and Turian soldier were useless, only that they are directly inferior to already existing classes that play the same. In this case, I have no reason to play a turricane or biotic ninja unless I want the lulz.

[Koenig888]

When using the Turian soldier, the only power I use is Marksman. The other two are nice but have no synergy with Marksman and in fact interfere with Marksman spamming. It would be much better if the Turian soldier has a grenade and/or barrier/fortification in addition to Marksman. Perhaps it is time for a new Turian character in the next DLC .....

[Grunt_Platform]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Some ideas for improving the paladin's shield:

1) Make the shield regenerate a certain number of hit points per second. Maybe based on the paladin's number of shields. Or even based on the difficulty level, to keep the shield viable in each difficulty level.

2) Allow the paladin to move slowly with the shield deployed. He should be a tank, not a stationary wall.

3) Give the paladin some damage reduction when the shield is deployed. He is easily flanked or gibbed from behind.

4) Allow the paladin to use his powers when the shield is deployed, but at a higher cooldown rate.

5) Allow use of one handed weapons when the shield is deployed.

6) A small AOE explosion (type based on the level 6 evolution chosen) when the shield is destroyed.

Not bad ideas, but definitely patch material. You can already use powers when the shield is deployed though, it just cancels the shield. Which is what you want sometimes.

[Blaine Kodos]

Missile Launcher desperately needs a buff. For the hit you take to your shields you get a poorly tracking, slow firing, less useful Concussive Shot. Just take a look at this:

Concussive Shot
-200 base damage, evolutions can take it to 300
-300N base force, evolutions can take it to 600N
-5 sec base recharge speed, evolutions can take it to 3.13 without interfering with damage or force, affected by weapon weight for a dramatic decrease
-added bonus of DOT on organic targets, usually enough to easily dispatch grunts and conserve ammunition.

Missile Launcher:
-150 base damage, evolutions can take it to 375
-150N base force, evolutions can take it to 375N
-4 sec base refire time, evolutions can take it to 2.9 sec by interfering with armor effectiveness, is not affected by weapon weight so you cannot increase this speed
-takes off a large portion of shields unless shield penalty evolution is taken, which interferes with damage

Several people already see Concussive Shot as a waste, though it can be built for spamming and used as an effective anti-soft target power for how fast you can get them out. By comparison Missile Launcher has barely comprable effect at a significant drawback. A character with Concussive Shot still has good lightweight weapon options if they wish to spam the power at the greatest effect, while a Destroyer cannot make it fire nearly as fast. The shield penalty is also much too large for what the power can do for you.

Thus I would love to see at LEAST a large increase in force, and either a decrease to the shield penalty and increase to the refire time, or a large damage increase to compensate for the penalty. I like Missile Launcher, I think having an auto-fire power is great for a class as focused on putting rounds down range as the Destroyer. Currently though it is just completely inferior to the Multi-Frag Grenade option and is an active detriment to your survivability for little return on investment.

[Hypertion]

i wouold like to see

Missile Launcher
Base Damage Increased from 150 to 200
Base Force Increased from 150 to 200
Base Radius Increased from .5m to 1m
Base Refire Rate Changed from 4s to 3.5s

Evolution 1 changed from 15% to 20% reduced shield Penalty.

could boost the damage more but this is starting points after all.

[Grunt_Platform]

Seems to me the point of the missile launcher is to add a small amount of damage, and stagger enemies. Making it fire more often, even with the same low damage, would make it better for that.

[Wordlywisewiz]

Godless revive this thread please they need to do something about these ultra rares and the incinerate power..

My wraith X is worse than the new pirrana shotgun that is RARE

[Geek]

I've always thought biotic explosions were great, but I think both BE and tech bursts could use a minor buff.

I noticed in Spec7res platinum solo he could take down an atlas with the typhoon in under 6 seconds, about the time it takes for 2 biotic combos. The fury for example will only have about a quarter of the shields gone in the same amount of time. I'm not sure how much to add though, it is only really platinum I see this kind of imbalance.