724 réponses à ce sujet

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

I support these changes.

I very much support them.

[Grunt_Platform]

Finnegone wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

[...]

Ummm... right. Sorry - I don't think the difference in weight is a particularly strong argument for the significant advantages that the Krysae has - not just over the Scorpion, mind you - but every other weapon in the game. 65% difference in cooldown on powers is not, in fact, that big of deal - particularly since the Krysae precludes the need for a second weapon. It's currently the best weapon for any class in the game, save for the HA and AA. I won't repeat my previous points. If you need proof, see proliferation of said weapon in most public lobbies.

Frankly, I think I'm being generous in saying that the AOE needs to be reduced by 50% and the clip by a third. In all honesty, the weapon should be completely overhauled - single shot, high(er) damage per shot, 75% delivered on initial impact, with 25% following after approximately 1 second, with a similar explosive radius as the Scorpion. This would be more in line with what I would expect of an explosive sniper rifle, meet its description of piercing armor, and reducing many of its way-overpowered traits.

This might be a PC vs. XBox difference, but the only classes I see over-using it are Infiltrators who enjoy the unbalancing interaction between Tactical Cloak and the Krysae. After the damage reduction I haven't seen non-infiltrators using it much, and those that do are hardly overpowering.

If you remove the TC's Evolution 6 multiplicative 40% sniper rifle boost from the equation, the Krysae actually has a lower DPS than the Scorpion (309.28 vs. 314.63—393.29 ). This means Infiltrators are the only class for which the Krysae is better than the Scorpion. The Balance ALL the Things proposed changes address this, and shrinks the gap when used by Infiltrators..

I'm a little disinclined to say the one sniper rifle that actually compares well to its pistol equivelant needs to be nerfed just for that. I'd at least like to see how the krysae performs after the proposed Sniper+TC rebalancing first.

EDIT: Also I think you're overestimating the blast radius on the Krysae. Still, I would endorse reducing its clip size by 1 if that's deemed necessary. 

Modifié par EvanKester, 20 juin 2012 - 04:08 .

[Zjarcal]

EvanKester wrote...

sliverofamoon wrote...

I reallly hope that the Tac. Cloak doesn't get the nerf's you propose. IMO it's too heavy-handed, and Infiltrators are not even my best or favorite class. I would much rather see an increase in damage from Adrenaline Rush, than a decrease in damage in the Tac. Cloak tree in order to make Soldiers more viable with a Sniper Rifle.

Edit: And making the comparison to ME1 or ME2 is unfair, because in ME3 MP, the enemy AI does not ignore you and stop firing at you. You continue to get shot at, and take damage, and with no increase in health or shields. It is my personal opinion that with these changes, we might as well write off the Infil. class entirely.

How so? By reducing the Tac. Cloak sniper rifle damage bonus 15%, and increasing the base damage of all non-Krysae sniper rifles by 15% or better, damage remains roughly the same. Other than that he's only talking about redistributing the damage bonus slightly while keeping its max value the same. Most Infiltrators are overkilling trashmobs really easily, and that wouldn't change with this proposal.

Also, keep in mind that Tactical Cloak isn't broken, the enemy AI is just slightly smarter than ME2. If you cloak and then change position, you can snipe in peace. Enemies only keep shooting you because they tend to spray your last known location when you cloak, and if they hit you they can "see" the flicker. In fact, if you have Hunter Mode on as either geth character, you can watch how enemy behavior is changed any time you break line-of-sight, tactical cloak or no.

Indeed, the damage reduction GodlessPaladin proposes is almost entirely countered with all the sniper rifle damage buffs he lists. Really, there would hardly be any difference in terms of damage output.

Regarding the duration, yeah, now you'd have to sacrifice some damge (30% in total) in order to have a decent cloak duration. It's a good proposal, I like the ME1 comparison. Besides, are we really suggesting a 30% damage BONUS decrease (out of a possible 125% total with these changes), is going to RUIN a class (one that already deals ridiculously high damage)? Come on. (this coming from someone whose favorite class is Infiltrator)

And it's true what you said about the enemy AI. You can also see the behavior change if you arrive at an area while cloaked, and then decloak once settled in it. While you're still cloaked, enemies will keep shooting the location from which you arrived from (or the last location they spotted you), it's only once you decloak that they will start shooting your new position).

Also, it's not so much that they see through your cloak, it's more that they are smart about it. I believe it was GodlessPaladin again who also once made this analogy, when you see a Phantom or  Geth Hunter cloak right in front of you, do you stop shooting at them and just forget they are there? AI enemies work the same way.

P.S.: Forgot to say, this thread is awesome and I support it 100%. 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 20 juin 2012 - 04:02 .

[Atheosis]

Finnegone wrote...

EvanKester wrote...

Finnegone wrote...

WARMACHINE9 wrote...

Finnegone wrote...

Decrease Krysae damage radius by 50%. Decrease Krysae shots per clip from 3 to 2. It has a larger AOE than the Scorpion, does more damage per shot, has one fewer shots per clip, and the explosion is not delayed. And it's not an UR. And it has the most usable scope in the game. It's insane that this weapon hasn't been scaled back significantly since release.

*end rant*

Otherwise, I more or less agree with the changes. Not sure if all of the buffs are warranted, but I won't nit.

Don't really disagree with your post just wanted to point out that the Krysae is a sniper rifle and the scorpion is a pistol so  The Krysae should have a bigger radius and should do more damage. Not saying it shouldn't get tweeked a little more just pointing out the flaw in your argument. 

I can think of a few pistols that out-damage most multi-shot snipers - Paladin is nearly as good, shot for shot, as a BW, and the Talon is even better. They're both URs, of course. That said, I'm not sure your argument gets to the point.

In real life, of course, any sniper rifle would "out damage" any pistol - but this is a far, far cry from real life. The principle thrust of my thoughts on re-balancing the bazooka is that it's OP as hell, even for a rare weapon, and on almost every level (AOE, Damage, Usability - both scope as well as ease of hitting targets - Availability) - it makes the Scorpion obsolete... but then again it basically makes every weapon obsolete, if your objective is to kill lots of things with ease.

Considering the Krysae has a weight of [2.0-1.4], and the Scorpion, with these changes, has a weight of [0.85-0.6], I think letting the Krysae do more damage and have better explosions is pretty fair. Even before the proposed weight range tightening for Ultra Rares, a Scorpion I weighs less than a Krysae X (1.1 vs. 1.4)

Granted, since both are mostly used on Infiltrators, and thus weight doesn't matter much, the Scorpion might need a slight buff... but both guns seem to work pretty well and in different ways.  If the Tactical Cloak + Sniper rebalancing suggested in this thread were applied, the Krysae would be fine as-is on most non-infiltrator classes, and would lose a lot of its damage advantage against the Scorpion.

Ummm... right. Sorry - I don't think the difference in weight is a particularly strong argument for the significant advantages that the Krysae has - not just over the Scorpion, mind you - but every other weapon in the game. 65% difference in cooldown on powers is not, in fact, that big of deal - particularly since the Krysae precludes the need for a second weapon. It's currently the best weapon for any class in the game, save for the HA and AA. I won't repeat my previous points. If you need proof, see proliferation of said weapon in most public lobbies.

Frankly, I think I'm being generous in saying that the AOE needs to be reduced by 50% and the clip by a third. In all honesty, the weapon should be completely overhauled - single shot, high(er) damage per shot, 75% delivered on initial impact, with 25% following after approximately 1 second, with a similar explosive radius as the Scorpion. This would be more in line with what I would expect of an explosive sniper rifle, meet its description of piercing armor, and reducing many of its way-overpowered traits.

I'm sorry, but you are way off regarding the Krysae on non-Infiltrators.  Yes it can be very good on them, but it isn't even remotely overpowered presently.  

[robarcool]

Never mind

Modifié par robarcool, 20 juin 2012 - 05:13 .

[Epique Phael767]

 we are Haunch the VS, Gyre the GE, tQr the SI, Vrael the DA, Valk the TS, and Charon the PV, and we all approve of this thread.

[a ViciousFerret]

fantastic thread Paladin.

[jcamdenlane]

This thread could use an executive summary that specifically describes the proposed changes. It's meant as a proposal, right? And before someone refers me to the FAQ and a vague description of balance and a quote from a developer, I mean an explicit statement of what the assumptions are regarding the need for changes, identification of general imbalances, and how these changes address it. This information is buried in the sub responses, but the goals of changes of the magnitude proposed deserve to be stated upfront to allow consideration by other than just players. Forest's getting lost, etc.

[GodlessPaladin]

ShadedPhoenix wrote...

After taking the time to read this i have one point i have to disagree imediately with

The Revenant

The damage on it is already quite nice

Instead buffing its accuracy by a bit, so far the only 2 characters where this gun becomes truly of use past short and "almost medium" are the geth and the turian soldier, all other classes have to get into shotgun ranges to make most use of this baby

Maxaimerror=(X=4.8,Y=4.8) instead of (X=5.5,Y=5.5)
Maxzoomaimerror=(X=2.1,Y=2.1) instead of (X=2.5,Y=2.5)
Minaimerror=(X=1.7,Y=1.7) instead of (X=2.0,Y=2.0)
Minzoomaimerror=(X=1.0f,Y=1.0f) instead of (X=1.2f,Y=1.2f)

I personally would also increase its rof to 700 but put the recoil at 0.45 with a zoomrecoil of 0.64

I got some more thoughts and did some extensive sp rebalance for myself on the weapons.... and a few complete overhauls

LOL, it's funny you say that.  I actually was totally behind making it a bit more accurate instead of more damaging, others argued that it shouldn't get a "feel change" though. 

Anyways, I'll invite you to the discussion group.  I figure you know the Revenant better than most.

jcamdenlane wrote...

This thread could use an executive
summary that specifically describes the proposed changes. It's meant as a
proposal, right? And before someone refers me to the FAQ and a vague
description of balance and a quote from a developer, I mean an explicit
statement of what the assumptions are regarding the need for changes,
identification of general imbalances, and how these changes address it.
This information is buried in the sub responses, but the goals of
changes of the magnitude proposed deserve to be stated upfront to allow
consideration by other than just players. Forest's getting lost, etc.

If you have suggestions on specific things I should cover in the second post, please tell me and I'll write up more of our reasoning for these changes there if/when I have time.

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Is there anything to be done to
Singularity to make it in any way useful against Shielded/Armored
enemies, or is that something that requires more effort than what these
changes would take/not something people want looked at?

Singularity can stagger shielded enemies.

Lord Chun wrote...

@ balance all things members
The
numbers for the duration of TC is shorter then it is right now even with
150% if you start at 4 sec for a base as it makes it .5 sec shorter so
I'm still not going to take the duration upgrade. You would have to give
the first duration upgrade a boost as well. I have read it several
times over and still don't see how you made it a viable option or am I
missing something

Right, it works out to be about the same.  However, the cooldown for staying in cloak for a long time is shorter.

Metal Vile wrote...
I know you stated in you "mission
statement" of sorts that you restricted yourselves to "Fagnan-esque"
changes in order to layout a vision that would be more easily achievable
outside the purview of patches. BUT, for the sake of mental exercise,
what would you say to a change for Tactical Cloak implemented through a
game mechanics change, such as returning Head-shot damage to
bosses?

  I support granting a headshot damage bonus to bosses at a greatly reduced bonus.  Even if that bonus is very small, so that targeting VIs and +headshot damage spec and such can work.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 20 juin 2012 - 10:30 .

[ShadowRanger88]

 Now, since I actually want to be constructive because I agree with alot of the things in this post and gave it a thorough read, I'll start with a few things. 

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Tactical Cloak Power
- Base duration reduced to from 8 seconds to 4 seconds
- Evolution 1 duration bonus increased from 40% to 150%

I agree with this but instead of a 150% increase, bring it up to 200% for a 12 second cloak to allow the infiltrators who actually want to cap objectives a little leeway to get in and out of danger safely. 10 seconds is right on the dot of how long it takes to cap one and if you cloak that bit too early, you are left with a small amount of time where you could be killed so close to almost getting it.

GodlessPaladin wrote... 

Turian
-Base heavy melee damage increased from 675 to 756
-Base light melee damage increased from 200 to 220

Krogan
-Base heavy melee damage increased from 700 to 735
-Base light melee damage increased from 300 to 330

Batarian
-Base melee damage increased from 1000 to 1050
-Base light melee damage increased from 190 to 210

I have no idea why you increased turian melee so much whilst giving a slight increase of heavy melee to the krogan so now their heavy melee does LESS damage than the turian one. Just doesn't seem right. Bring it up to around 780ish.

Also a question on batarian melee. Why is it's value so high? I understand their melee has the longest animation, but I always though krogan to be the melee gods, was there something I missed?

[Soja57]

GodlessPaladin wrote...
 I support granting a headshot damage bonus to bosses at a greatly reduced bonus.  Even if that bonus is very small, so that targeting VIs and +headshot damage spec and such can work.

I would also love this. Right now Headshot Damage + bonuses are lacking in utility. Perhaps without any upgrades, headshots deal the same damage as shooting in the body, but speccing will add on more damage.

Example:

Body shots = 100% weapon damage

Headshots = 100% weapon damage + headshot damage bonuses (default is 0% bonus)

[GodlessPaladin]

ShadowRanger88 wrote...
I have no idea why you increased
turian melee so much whilst giving a slight increase of heavy melee to
the krogan so now their heavy melee does LESS damage than the turian
one. Just doesn't seem right. Bring it up to around 780ish.

Turians got a lower % melee damage increase than Humans, Asari, Drell, Quarians, and Salarians did. Also, the "Krogans have a lower base heavy melee damage" thing is purely academic. Previous to the change, they had almost the same base melee damage as Turians (675 vs 700), now Turians have slightly more, but Krogan still do much more damage when you take into account all the other melee bonuses they get.

The reason Krogans only got a small increase was because their melee is already quite good, and we made Rage a bit more maintainable.

Krogan Soldier melee damage with bonuses = 5145  (Original 4812.5)
Turian Soldier melee damage with bonuses = 3591 (Original 3121.9)

Soja57 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...
 I
support granting a headshot damage bonus to bosses at a greatly reduced
bonus.  Even if that bonus is very small, so that targeting VIs and
+headshot damage spec and such can work.

I would also
love this. Right now Headshot Damage + bonuses are lacking in utility.
Perhaps without any upgrades, headshots deal the same damage as shooting
in the body, but speccing will add on more damage.

Example:

Body shots = 100% weapon damage

Headshots = 100% weapon damage + headshot damage bonuses (default is 0% bonus)

Right.  So if you took a targeting VI instead of a rail amp, you'd get 3x the damage bonus... if you can always hit the head.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 20 juin 2012 - 11:16 .

[Lord Chun]

@ godless
But I'd take the longer cooldown because as it is now it will reset when you are at the next point to
make it a better option your going to have to give the duration more time that's why 4 sec isn't enough go with 5 or 6 if you won't budge on this. It's not like I'm fighting for the damage boost here I'm the rez and hack guy im always support even when infiltrator I want money not score

[ShadowRanger88]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ShadowRanger88 wrote...
I have no idea why you increased
turian melee so much whilst giving a slight increase of heavy melee to
the krogan so now their heavy melee does LESS damage than the turian
one. Just doesn't seem right. Bring it up to around 780ish.

Turians got a lower % melee damage increase than Humans, Asari, Drell, Quarians, and Salarians did. Also, the "Krogans have a lower base heavy melee damage" thing is purely academic. Previous to the change, they had almost the same base melee damage as Turians (675 vs 700), now Turians have slightly more, but Krogan still do much more damage when you take into account all the other melee bonuses they get.

The reason Krogans only got a small increase was because their melee is already quite good, and we made Rage a bit more maintainable.

Krogan Soldier melee damage with bonuses = 5145  (Original 4812.5)
Turian Soldier melee damage with bonuses = 3591 (Original 3121.9)

Thanks for the numbers, usually I'd take things at face value which is why I got confused.

[Soja57]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Right.  So if you took a targeting VI instead of a rail amp, you'd get 3x the damage bonus... if you can always hit the head.

3x? I thought Targeting VI (III) adds 100%? Wouldn't that be 2x base damage?

And I figured making base headshots deal no extra damage creates higher incentives to go for headshot bonus. It also helps retain the boss toughness unless you spec for it, as granting full blown default headshot damage (2.5x weapon damage) would make it too easy.

Modifié par Soja57, 20 juin 2012 - 11:19 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Lord Chun wrote...

@ godless
But I'd take the longer cooldown because as it is now it will reset when you are at the next point to
make it a better option your going to have to give the duration more time that's why 4 sec isn't enough go with 5 or 6 if you won't budge on this. It's not like I'm fighting for the damage boost here I'm the rez and hack guy im always support even when infiltrator I want money not score

Never said I wouldn't budge, I just don't make changes immediately.  I have to go and critically consider and argue and analyze the math and all that first .  In fact I had originally set the duration nerf to 5 sec, not 4, but others in the discussion group argued it should be lowered to 4 and they were the ones who had access to the ability to test it in game and try out the "feel" of it.   I do value your feedback on the tactical cloak change, and I am quite interested in hearing what would be necessary to make people want to actually consider the Duration upgrade of Tactical Cloak. 

That applies in general by the way.  I'm interested in hearing people talk about what it would take for them to consider a power / evolution / weapon option that they previously would not consider. 

Soja57 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Right.  So if you took a targeting VI instead of a rail amp, you'd get 3x the damage bonus... if you can always hit the head.

3x? I thought Targeting VI (III) adds 100%? Wouldn't that be 2x base damage?

  No, I was saying that it would be roughly 3x the bonus of a rail amp (which is 30%).  Sorry if that was unclear.

And again, I'm on board with the "0% (or otherwise low) base headshot bonus on bosses" idea.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 20 juin 2012 - 11:28 .

[Lord Chun]

@ godless ( sorry on iPhone quote gets to big I can't type lol )
Could you get them to try this to me it seems like too much of a nerf to infiltrators to lower everything in their one specialty power. I understand the drop in the damage boost I really do. I just feel as ur companions went a little too far with the duration nerf sorry I've been nagging you about this.

[Soja57]

Hmm, it seems many skimmed over my post on page 6 and 7. I had proposed in-depth changes for both the Sentry Turret and Combat Drone. Would you mind reading them over and share what you think of them, GodlessPaladin?

Modifié par Soja57, 20 juin 2012 - 11:33 .

[LadyAlekto]

@Godless Paladin i would be interested in that group solely to see what other think about some of the balances (i got a lot of thoughts about common weapons mostly, basically i would love to see guns like incisor and vindicator made gold worthy)

On another note, i like the thought of granting a very very small hs bonus against bosses that can be boosted, this would make turian soldiers quite viable as a choice to get rid of them

[GodlessPaladin]

Soja57 wrote...

Hmm, it seems many skimmed over my post on page 6 and 7. I had proposed in-depth changes for both the Sentry Turret and Combat Drone. Would you mind reading them over and share what you think of them, GodlessPaladin?

I read it.   Be patient, I will post up stuff on Sentry Turret and Combat Drone.  

I can say right off though that I'm all over increasing the fire rate of those things.  At the very least people should be able to look over at their summons and not wonder "why isn't it doing anything?"

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 20 juin 2012 - 11:41 .

[Bleachrude]

GodlessPaladin wrote...


Right.  So if you took a targeting VI instead of a rail amp, you'd get 3x the damage bonus... if you can always hit the head.

Except for Phantoms, this isn't hard AT ALL for any of the bosses.

Primes move at a steady walking pace that even javelin users can easily predict their movement....
Atlases have a canopy that is literally bigger in area than a Nemesis ENTIRE body
Banshees, unless they are teleporting, their walking speed is the slowest of any mob in the game.
Brutes until they charge, are no faster than primes and while admittedly, they WILL protect their face, the fact that if you hit them from begind, you don't suffer the armour penalty, they already have a major weakness...

[GodlessPaladin]

Atlas "head" wouldn't have to be the canopy. You could simply get the bonus from VI / passive when attacking the weak points they already have (kneecaps, groin plate, shoulder flanges).

Anyways, it's really a moot point that's outside the purview of what this thread addresses.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 20 juin 2012 - 12:10 .

[Chealec]

I hope someone at BioWare actually rolls all these changes into a custom coalesced.ini file to try them out - it all looks pretty good on paper but the real test would be how it plays.

I'd love to try out the proposed TC changes on my QMI as he's already "scout-specced" (duration increases rather than damage) so he can scout behind enemy lines and flag stuff up with Tactical Scan...

... actually, speaking of Tactical Scan - I'm not sure whether the "pulse" duration on the Area Scan evolution is in the coalesced.ini file - but it would be more useful if it lasted just a second or two longer to kind of get a feel as to where the mobs are heading.

Modifié par Chealec, 20 juin 2012 - 12:12 .

[Soja57]

Just wondering, how good (or bad) is the Tech Armor explosion on Gold? In my (short, if any, I barely play Sentinel) experience, the damage is lackluster and the lengthy animation is somewhat of a hindrance. In what situations would Tech Armor explosion shine?

Modifié par Soja57, 20 juin 2012 - 12:18 .

[Chealec]

Soja57 wrote...

Just wondering, how good (or bad) is the Tech Armor explosion on Gold? In my (short, if any, I barely play Sentinel) experience, the damage is lackluster and the lengthy animation is somewhat of a hindrance. In what situations would Tech Armor explosion shine?

You can stagger things with it - I've seen one or two people get the timing down absolutely bang on so that they stagger the Banshee as it begins the synch-kill animation and escape... not for a while now though, so maybe they've made Banshees more stagger-resistant or something?