724 réponses à ce sujet

[Soja57]

I was thinking if the primary function of the Tech Armor explosion was staggering enemies, it could use a range buff. Staggering lots of enemies within the vicinity so as to grant you time to escape. It also has a "Force" variable. Perhaps by upping this value to similarity to Throw, it can knock down unshielded enemies? Will require testing...

[ryoldschool]

ryoldschool wrote...

Just a clarification - where did you find the documentation that the sixth evolution of sniper rifle damage on cloak is a multiplier? Maybe its in ths last six pages, if so, please update OP. If you google it all the references are bsn by non-bioware folk.


cricket, cricket, cricket.   I have posted the question about where this reverence is in about four threads about tactical cloak, nobody has ever responded......

[GodlessPaladin]

@ryoldschool: Empirical testing in-game for me. Not sure where everyone else got it from. Same for how I verified the claim that the melee attachment mod is a multiplier.

If it wasn't a multiplier, then I don't know how I'd be one-shotting shielded mobs with the Krysae...

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 20 juin 2012 - 12:40 .

[Fortack]

Chealec wrote...

I hope someone at BioWare actually rolls all these changes into a custom coalesced.ini file to try them out - it all looks pretty good on paper but the real test would be how it plays.

You can test these changes yourself in SP (on PC) and a lot of these changes have been tested already.

It would be cool though when Eric / BW allow (some of) us to setup private matches to test these things in MP (without risking bans)

[PluralAces]

From the looks of all the suggestions, this thread should be titled INCREASE all the things! LOL

Modifié par PluralAces, 20 juin 2012 - 01:31 .

[Atheosis]

PluralAces wrote...

From the looks of all the suggestions, this thread should be titled INCREASE all the things! LOL

We are still discussing nerfs to some things, but buffing obviously underpowered stuff is much more of a no brainer than figuring out how to nerf slightly overpowered elements.  

[PluralAces]

Atheosis wrote...

PluralAces wrote...

From the looks of all the suggestions, this thread should be titled INCREASE all the things! LOL

We are still discussing nerfs to some things, but buffing obviously underpowered stuff is much more of a no brainer than figuring out how to nerf slightly overpowered elements.  

But wouldnt buffing everything just make the game easier? Would that still be fun?

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

PluralAces wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

PluralAces wrote...

From the looks of all the suggestions, this thread should be titled INCREASE all the things! LOL

We are still discussing nerfs to some things, but buffing obviously underpowered stuff is much more of a no brainer than figuring out how to nerf slightly overpowered elements.  

But wouldnt buffing everything just make the game easier? Would that still be fun?

For a select few the slightest buffs might cause the game to become easier than they need it to be. but it's not like most of these buffs are absolutley huge. Just weight reductions and dps buffs to things that basically no one was using like asari heavy melee. 


But for the majiority of gold suitable players i think they handle a buff without the game becoming too easy so long as those buffs are reasonable which i think pretty much everything on this list is. Is a carnage damage increase really going to make the geth any less challenging as a Kroldier? 

[GodlessPaladin]

PluralAces wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

PluralAces wrote...

From the looks of all the suggestions, this thread should be titled INCREASE all the things! LOL

We are still discussing nerfs to some things, but buffing obviously underpowered stuff is much more of a no brainer than figuring out how to nerf slightly overpowered elements.  

But wouldnt buffing everything just make the game easier? Would that still be fun?

First off, saying that everything is being buffed is widly inaccurate hyperbole.  In fact, we've suggested less buffs than Bioware has already made since the game's release.

Second, this concern is answered in the FAQ on the first page of this thread.  It also has been answered a couple of times throughout this thread by a number of other posters.  We do not feel buffing underpowered elements makes the game notably easier, because the difficulty of the game is largely determined by the effectiveness of the options that dominate the metagame relative to the challenges players face.  By stark contrast, changes like the addition of grenade capacity gear, the improvements to thermal clips, or the radius buff to Proximity Mine are power creep and have made the game easier, because it makes some of the stronger strategies in the game that much more effective.  We do not feel we have suggested any changes like that, however.  Indeed, we have nerfed a number of powerful options, including the Krysae.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 20 juin 2012 - 02:21 .

[Atheosis]

PluralAces wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

PluralAces wrote...

From the looks of all the suggestions, this thread should be titled INCREASE all the things! LOL

We are still discussing nerfs to some things, but buffing obviously underpowered stuff is much more of a no brainer than figuring out how to nerf slightly overpowered elements.  

But wouldnt buffing everything just make the game easier? Would that still be fun?

Using the FQE with a Raptor would certainly become easier, but playing with the established top tier classes and loadouts?  Yeah not so much.  

Modifié par Atheosis, 20 juin 2012 - 01:53 .

[PluralAces]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

First off, saying that everything is being buffed is widly inaccurate hyperbole.  In fact, we've suggested less buffs than Bioware has already made since the game's release.

Second, this concern is answered in the FAQ on the first page of this thread.  It also has been answered a couple of times throughout this thread by a number of other posters.  We do not feel buffing underpowered elementsoptions makes the game notably easier, because the difficulty of the game is largely determined by the effectiveness of the options that dominate the metagame relative to the challenges players face.  By stark contrast, changes like the addition of grenade capacity gear, the improvements to thermal clips, or the radius buff to Proximity Mine are power creep and have made the game easier, because it makes some of the stronger strategies in the game that much more effective.  We do not feel we have suggested any changes like that, however.  Indeed, we have nerfed a number of powerful options, including the Krysae.

No need to get defensive, I thought these balance changes were independent of what Bioware has already done, not on top of them. I'm just expressing my opinion, and obviously it wasnt meant to be taken seriously (as the LOL shoud indicate) I just saw the word increase more than the word decrease thats all, forget I said anything, geez...

[GGW KillerTiger]

Hmmm your gravatar is a krogan yet you no mention balance changes for melee charachters. You're a fool and I should eat you!

[greghorvath]

Kudos to you guys for all the work you have done. I have great respect for your skills and the amount of work and thought you have put into this thing.

However, I’ve had a mild bout earlier with Godless on the issue of balancing and I know I am in the minority when I say this entire thing is an utter and complete waste of your valuable time. Balance in ME3 MP is impossible to achieve. Especially with the buffs (because whatever you wrote in the FAQ, the majority of suggestions in the OP is buffing) that will only cause people to cry for nerfing, and rebalancing and whatnot. I sincerely believe it would be much better if this would stop.

The underlying problem with the issue of balance regarding ME3 MP has game structural and conceptual aspects. You have 6 classes with a(n increasing) number of races, with a very large number of build combinations. You also have 5 weapon classes with an already large and growing number of weapons in each. You already have thousands of variables, even without the issue of levelling those weapons up. If you introduce the different levels of skill and preferences, and weapon availability of hundreds of thousands of gamers into the equation, the term „balance” becomes meaningless. Without the same sets of attributes for EVERYTHING (in other words having exactly the same weapon and character features), „balancing” will never stop, simply because it can’t. And even if everything was the same, the lesser skilled players would be asking for something that gives them an edge over the better ones and the more skilled would be asking for elite lobbies and higher difficulties. Unless you guys are doing this only to kill time this attempt makes absolutely no sense in the long run.

I am not going to be popular for what I am about to say, but here I go:
Approach balance this way:
- decrease weapon choices
- decrease weapon levels
- make character/class dependant weapons more prominent (e.g. weight reduction for certain characters, weapon type specific damage bonuses etc.)
- if someone chooses to use something „unsuitable” for a character, let them compensate for it with skill, not a change in paraphernalia parameters

These seem like content cuts and they are. But cosmetic differences that in the end call out for so called balancing are pointless. The content that MP is now lacking is not more weapons and classes but scenarios (maps, game modes, etc), MP achievements, a decent unlock and upgrade system (with income potential for EA/BW), a decent rank system with information value about a player, more difficulty options. And another thing this game is seriously in need of is a proper project manager that will ensure there are no epic fails like patch 1.03, or such absolutely untested idiotic content introduced as for example the Krysae and who will ensure bugs and glitches get fixed in less than 3 months (and counting) without actually introducing new ones…

[WaffleCrab]

tl;dr

but honestly, BW is already doing an awesome job micro managing "the balance in a Coop game" i am sorry i cant say that sentence without laughing out loud.

[LiquidFooFoo]

Since the latest patch killing a Warped enemy with Throw does not produce a BE, only a thrown enemy (loss of crowd control). Landing a Warp on a rolling/dodging enemy will cause it not to stick (because of their damage reduction). Add to that all of the usual "not sticking" of Warps...playing biotics can be very, very frustrating sometimes.

I would like to see either the radius for Warp increased, or it's CD reduced from 8s to 5s (as was done to Smash). If the latter is done they could reduce Warp's base damage to attempt to keep some semblance of balance.

For me the difference in playing AA as host and off-host is huge. I would even say that playing off-host, Warp is for the most part broken.

[GodlessPaladin]

greghorvath wrote...
I am not going to be popular for what I am about to say, but here I go:
Approach balance this way:
- decrease weapon choices
- decrease weapon levels
- make character/class dependant weapons more prominent (e.g. weight reduction for certain characters, weapon type specific damage bonuses etc.)
- if someone chooses to use something „unsuitable” for a character, let them compensate for it with skill, not a change in paraphernalia parameters

These seem like content cuts and they are.

This is just not at all compatible with our views about what balance should achieve, sorry.  But then, I suppose you already know that.

GGW KillerTiger wrote...

Hmmm your gravatar is a krogan yet you no mention balance changes for melee charachters. You're a fool and I should eat you!

Are you talking to me?  Because if you are this makes no sense... one of the biggest things we did was carefully rebalance melee Fitness for every character to be a more competitive option.  We spent a good 12 pages of discussion on the matter, not including Skype chatter and PMs.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 20 juin 2012 - 02:24 .

[Atheosis]

greghorvath wrote...

Kudos to you guys for all the work you have done. I have great respect for your skills and the amount of work and thought you have put into this thing.

However, I’ve had a mild bout earlier with Godless on the issue of balancing and I know I am in the minority when I say this entire thing is an utter and complete waste of your valuable time. Balance in ME3 MP is impossible to achieve. Especially with the buffs (because whatever you wrote in the FAQ, the majority of suggestions in the OP is buffing) that will only cause people to cry for nerfing, and rebalancing and whatnot. I sincerely believe it would be much better if this would stop.

The underlying problem with the issue of balance regarding ME3 MP has game structural and conceptual aspects. You have 6 classes with a(n increasing) number of races, with a very large number of build combinations. You also have 5 weapon classes with an already large and growing number of weapons in each. You already have thousands of variables, even without the issue of levelling those weapons up. If you introduce the different levels of skill and preferences, and weapon availability of hundreds of thousands of gamers into the equation, the term „balance” becomes meaningless. Without the same sets of attributes for EVERYTHING (in other words having exactly the same weapon and character features), „balancing” will never stop, simply because it can’t. And even if everything was the same, the lesser skilled players would be asking for something that gives them an edge over the better ones and the more skilled would be asking for elite lobbies and higher difficulties. Unless you guys are doing this only to kill time this attempt makes absolutely no sense in the long run.

I am not going to be popular for what I am about to say, but here I go:
Approach balance this way:
- decrease weapon choices
- decrease weapon levels
- make character/class dependant weapons more prominent (e.g. weight reduction for certain characters, weapon type specific damage bonuses etc.)
- if someone chooses to use something „unsuitable” for a character, let them compensate for it with skill, not a change in paraphernalia parameters

These seem like content cuts and they are. But cosmetic differences that in the end call out for so called balancing are pointless. The content that MP is now lacking is not more weapons and classes but scenarios (maps, game modes, etc), MP achievements, a decent unlock and upgrade system (with income potential for EA/BW), a decent rank system with information value about a player, more difficulty options. And another thing this game is seriously in need of is a proper project manager that will ensure there are no epic fails like patch 1.03, or such absolutely untested idiotic content introduced as for example the Krysae and who will ensure bugs and glitches get fixed in less than 3 months (and counting) without actually introducing new ones…

Because a lack of choices is always good for game longevity right? 

[Tankcommander]

Good job OP. I like the approach to most of the changes, and I agree with the vast majority of them.

[capn233]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

LOL, it's funny you say that.  I actually was totally behind making it a bit more accurate instead of more damaging, others argued that it shouldn't get a "feel change" though.

Most people are unwilling to run the AR Scope, but it does make a noticeable difference.  Most of the automatic weapons have cartoony accuracy at present, Revenant just being one example.  It would still "feel" the same if you left in the muzzle climb.

[GodlessPaladin]

Added a section in the fourth post for patch suggestions. It's not really something I want to focus on, but it's there. Anyways, if you have suggestions for this section please try to keep them conservative... no writing a new game or fundamentally overhauling the gameplay or adding entirely new modes or anything.

[YuenglingDragon]

I harp on this a lot but I'm going to do it again. These balance changes are, for the most part, going about it the wrong way. I think it can be generally agreed that TB's and BE's are one of, if not the, most effective tactics in the game. In large part, they are so effective because they scale with difficulty. Increases to base damage for weapons, melee, and powers has an outsized effect on Bronze and little substantive effect on Gold compared to the already great combo 'splosions.

In order to truly balance classes like the Soldier or races like Krogans and Batarians, there needs to be some option which allows for scaling damage. For Krogans, evo 5 (rank six top) should include a scaling damage bonus proportionate to enemy health/shields (high health=bigger bonus=rewarding aggressive melee). The Batarians could get a similar but smaller bonus and additional scaling bonuses for their signature powers, Net and BB.

Also, I petitioned to join the group. Hope you'll accept.

[GodlessPaladin]

YuenglingDragon wrote...

I harp on this a lot but I'm going to do it again. These balance changes are, for the most part, going about it the wrong way. I think it can be generally agreed that TB's and BE's are one of, if not the, most effective tactics in the game. In large part, they are so effective because they scale with difficulty. Increases to base damage for weapons, melee, and powers has an outsized effect on Bronze and little substantive effect on Gold compared to the already great combo 'splosions.

In order to truly balance classes like the Soldier or races like Krogans and Batarians, there needs to be some option which allows for scaling damage. For Krogans, evo 5 (rank six top) should include a scaling damage bonus proportionate to enemy health/shields (high health=bigger bonus=rewarding aggressive melee). The Batarians could get a similar but smaller bonus and additional scaling bonuses for their signature powers, Net and BB.

Also, I petitioned to join the group. Hope you'll accept.

The scaling changes you suggest are outside the scope of simple .ini file edits and represent a large and fundamental change to the game. 

That said, we don't think that Soldiers are weak classes.  Bioware has given them a lot of love and they are quite effective now.

[Atheosis]

YuenglingDragon wrote...

I harp on this a lot but I'm going to do it again. These balance changes are, for the most part, going about it the wrong way. I think it can be generally agreed that TB's and BE's are one of, if not the, most effective tactics in the game. In large part, they are so effective because they scale with difficulty. Increases to base damage for weapons, melee, and powers has an outsized effect on Bronze and little substantive effect on Gold compared to the already great combo 'splosions.

In order to truly balance classes like the Soldier or races like Krogans and Batarians, there needs to be some option which allows for scaling damage. For Krogans, evo 5 (rank six top) should include a scaling damage bonus proportionate to enemy health/shields (high health=bigger bonus=rewarding aggressive melee). The Batarians could get a similar but smaller bonus and additional scaling bonuses for their signature powers, Net and BB.

Also, I petitioned to join the group. Hope you'll accept.

You are getting into the realm of actual redesign rather than rebalance, which not really the purview of what the group is doing.  We are limiting ourselves to things that can be done in weekly balance changes, rather than fundamental changes to the way the game works.

[greghorvath]

Atheosis wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

*snip*

Because a lack of choices is always good for game longevity right? 

I may be wrong here, but choices with cosmetic differences (although in these BW is a true master...*) vs. actual content (as suggested) is not a very fair fight. Choosing between custom colour lights or equally versatile pieces of weaponry is not my idea of a fulfilling game experience.
@Godless: I had a feeling I would not be able to convince you...

Well, I do not want to interrupt the discussion any longer. Keep up the good work.

*sorry, I could not resist

Modifié par greghorvath, 20 juin 2012 - 04:19 .