358 réponses à ce sujet

[defleshing]

@arelex any room on your friendslist I've played with some of the best on xbox. havnt been lucky enough to run into your guys group yet.

[defleshing]

Lexa_D wrote...

AreleX wrote...

Lexa_D wrote...

Kronner wrote...
I would not say Krysae is flat out the best choice at all. There is a number of weapons that are just as effective, even though they may require a more precise aim. As for GI, QMI with Grenade Capacity V is better for speedruns on such a small map as well. So really, anyone who complains about the setup used does not understand the game.

AreleX wrote...
the krysae will give you the FASTEST times. we are going for the FASTEST times. other guns will provide FAST times, but not as fast as the krysae.

hmm...

what is the point you are trying to make here?

bolded

the triple shot crap you guys on pc do with the claymore is just as bad as the kryse

[Mandalore313]

You can only do a triple shot with a human soldier.

Unless you think that firing 3 times with reload cancel = 3ple shot in which case we're all doing infiniteshot.

[RecoonHoodie]

They have Krysae, is not about the infiltrator. Try human solider with Krysae, its the same thing, everything dies. The krysae is the problem. Please dont nerf TC!

[Rodia Driftwood]

I just watched the video. It's very impressive, I don't deny it, but in all fairness, you guys were manipulating enemy spawn points.

Nevertheless, that was the point. And the teamwork.

[Kronner]

defleshing wrote...

the triple shot crap you guys on pc do with the claymore is just as bad as the kryse

You've never played on PC. I feel sad for you man.

[defleshing]

Kronner wrote...

defleshing wrote...

the triple shot crap you guys on pc do with the claymore is just as bad as the kryse

You've never played on PC. I feel sad for you man.

i have controls make the game easier than it is on xbox.

[AreleX]

Rodia Driftwood wrote...

I just watched the video. It's very impressive, I don't deny it, but in all fairness, you guys were manipulating enemy spawn points.

Nevertheless, that was the point. And the teamwork.

i don't understand how you can see smart play as a negative...?

[Kronner]

defleshing wrote...
i have controls make the game easier than it is on xbox.

Mouse and keyboard combo is better than a controller?

Preliminary news reports indicate that there is a possibiltiy for creating mods on PC. 
More at 11.

Modifié par Kronner, 22 juin 2012 - 09:58 .

[AreleX]

check your pm's kronner

[Rodia Driftwood]

AreleX wrote...

Rodia Driftwood wrote...

I just watched the video. It's very impressive, I don't deny it, but in all fairness, you guys were manipulating enemy spawn points.

Nevertheless, that was the point. And the teamwork.

i don't understand how you can see smart play as a negative...?

 I didn't mean it that way. This was meant to be a speed-run and manipulating spawn points is what made it so, but all in all, they WERE manipulating spawn points with a team full of GIs and a MQI using Krysae. It's smart, but any team competent enough could do this.

[Kronner]

Rodia Driftwood wrote...

It's smart, but any team competent enough could do this.

Only one team ever got under 10 minutes, but any team can do it, apparently. 

[SeaJayX]

Rodia Driftwood wrote...

AreleX wrote...

Rodia Driftwood wrote...

I just watched the video. It's very impressive, I don't deny it, but in all fairness, you guys were manipulating enemy spawn points.

Nevertheless, that was the point. And the teamwork.

i don't understand how you can see smart play as a negative...?

 I didn't mean it that way. This was meant to be a speed-run and manipulating spawn points is what made it so, but all in all, they WERE manipulating spawn points with a team full of GIs and a MQI using Krysae. It's smart, but any team competent enough could do this.

You should be "manipulating" spawns in every match you play on gold...if not, you're doing it wrong.

Also, a competent team comes in at around 12 minutes doing this method, it's that extra skill that shaves 2 minutes off and makes a world record.

[Nicla Karsavina]

AreleX wrote...
can you do it at this speed? have you done it this quickly? do you know the spawns and how to control them to this level?

no?

then you don't get to make such a judgment on it. you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you can't make a dismissal based on a statement that essentially equates to 'this isn't that hard' when you can't do it. same goes for the rest of you. if it's so easy, do it.

Among all rethorical strategies to dismiss the disputant's argumentations, the argumentum ad hominem is one of the most popular, as it doesn't require any intellectual ability to end a dispute even with a more intelligent interlocutor, therefore is used very frequently on the internet.
It's being a decent player that makes me competent in this debate on speed runs, as, on much more higher level, it's extensive knowledge and deep insight as a reader that allows Harold Bloom to speak competently about literature without being a fiction writer himself.
But I'm not replying any longer to your post, because it requires some interlocutor intelligent enough to appeal to reason and not to authority to start a discussion and not someone who throw absurdities against the opponent like "Harold Bloom's writings on Shakespeare are worthless because he never wrote a play himself" in order to cut it short.

*Edit*, ok, I changed my mind and I'm replying to you. My purpose was far from saying "speed runs are easy", all I wanted to do is discuss their lack of that kind of behaviour (taking risks, facing difficult situation, playing with dinamysm) that the community seems to value - and these values are expressly named in topics about gold farming, but let's drop this argument. So my question about what is commendable in a speed run was not in relation with its difficulty, but with valuable styles of play.

Ashen Earth wrote...

The difference between a speed run, and FBWGG is that in order to do a successful speed run, you need to know how to control spawns, which enemies spawn where, when to use cobra missiles and which rounds spawn two or more bosses. In FBWGG lobbies, players don't "clear enemies in large groups", they sit behind a counter and spam one button for 30 minutes. You really don't need to know anything except to keep the SE decoy up, and press the grab button when something gets close. The strategies themselves are not even remotely similar.

They are both similar in that they are stupidly easy, but an unskilled player can complete a FBWGG game. However when I get stuck with unskilled players in Glacier/Gold lobbies they're the ones who block spawns, and drag the game out 5-6 minutes longer than it should have been.

 
I agree with you, but my purpose was far from suggesting that FBW "farming" is the same thing that a speed run. To avoid any subtleties, my question is about what values the players community, id est its opinion leaders, shares; in other words it's an axiological matter. 
Let's consider the hypothesis: I manage to persuade some friends to do speed runs and I give them the beautiful maps I found in Grimy Bunyip's thread. We choose the most suitable maps and character, and start playing every night the same four or five maps with the exact same positioning and strategy. We're not even trying hard and we are completely satisfied if we do a successful extraction in fourteen minutes. 
Are we doing speed runs? I'd say yes, without any doubt. Are we playing "proper gold"? Are we good players or "farmers" like FBW players? I suspect that the community would value my speed runs as a quite worthless practice. 
So, maybe, a speed run is totally worthless in itself, unlike, for example, a gold solo, but it become valuable only in relation to public challenge, that is to say only if you play them in order to beat the time of another team. It seems an interesting point. What do you think?

Modifié par Nicla Karsavina, 22 juin 2012 - 11:15 .

[Mandalore313]

Harold Bloom would be wrong as would anyone else on the world, having an opinion on a matter he knows little of.

Concordantly you may or may not realise this applies to any individuality that perceives their opinion to be pertinent on a subject they are unaware of, such as yourself. While explaining the amount of rapid and with mathematical precision teamwork required to successfuly complete such a task remains a burden insidiously avoided, it is not unexpected. Which has lead you, inexorably, here. Ergo you are talking out of your ass.



DO try to make a speedrun and afterwards, do come back here posting your time, as well as your experience, tell us if you were as relaxed as you would be if you were standing behind a counter mashing the melee button, firing the occasional rocket or if you were running while getting headshots while on steroids.
While you're doing that, persuade "some friends" to effortlessly cooperate so fast and efficiently so that you'd lower the amount of time needed for the game to finish.



Talking about something and doing something is not the same thing.

Modifié par Mandalore313, 22 juin 2012 - 11:12 .

[AreleX]

Nicla Karsavina wrote...

AreleX wrote...
can you do it at this speed? have you done it this quickly? do you know the spawns and how to control them to this level?

no?

then you don't get to make such a judgment on it. you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you can't make a dismissal based on a statement that essentially equates to 'this isn't that hard' when you can't do it. same goes for the rest of you. if it's so easy, do it.

Among all rethorical strategies to dismiss the disputant's argumentations, the argumentum ad hominem is one of the most popular, as it doesn't require any intellectual ability to end a dispute even with a more intelligent interlocutor, therefore is used very frequently on the internet.
It's being a decent player that makes me competent in this debate on speed runs, as, on much more higher level, it's extensive knowledge and deep insight as a reader that allows Harold Bloom to speak competently about literature without being a fiction writer himself.
But I'm not replying any longer to your post, because it requires some interlocutor intelligent enough to appeal to reason and not to authority to start a discussion and not someone who throw absurdities against the opponent like "Harold Bloom's writings on Shakespeare are worthless because he never wrote a play himself" in order to cut it short.

you show a lack of understanding if you try to compare what we did to firebase white farming, which leads me to the conclusion that you don't know what you're talking about. only ONE team has ever gotten a sub 10 minute run on gold. were it as easy as you say, we wouldn't have been the first (and ONLY) people to do it.

ad hominem means that i'm discrediting you with a personal attack that has nothing to do with the logical merit of your argument. however, if you present an illogical argument that has zero factual backing (see above) and attempts to draw a terrible comparison to something else (supporting the fact that you do not understand), is it still an an ad hominem attack?

[AreleX]

i said it once, i will say it again: mandalore is my favorite poster

[Nicla Karsavina]

AreleX wrote...

you show a lack of understanding if you try to compare what we did to firebase white farming

No, that's not what I said.
I added something a few minutes ago to my post, I hope that cloud clarify my thought.


...
@ Mandalore. I totally agree with you, "talking about something", id est criticism, is a different matter than doing the thing you're talking about, and it's a discipline itself with its own methods, traditions and merits. It's the divine art of making distinctions, of exercising the intellect, of translating different experiences, like a visual or a musical one, into language, that is to say in a form accessible to thoughts.   
In the age of the revolt of the masses these qualities are subjected to an unprecedented threat. In earlier times the illiterates didn't know anything about intellectual things, but they respected them. Now that they dominate, they won't tolerate that something difficult like "good manners", "argumentation", "reasoning" or things that require self-discipline could rise above them. Now you can understand why they dismiss any form of criticism: in order to do talk about a Mario Del Monaco performance, the masses will request you to sing it better, turning an intellectual dispute into a competition. It's an appeal from the virtues of the intellect to the mere animalism, as someone said.
But well, what remains after those qualities are taken from life, is talking through idiotic memes and set expressions, reponding to people posting an image, expressing your thought via pictograms, is facing your opponent through insinuations. Don't you agree?

AreleX wrote...

i said it once, i will say it again: mandalore is my favorite poster

No surprises here.


...

(Excuse my bad english, but I'm in a hurry)

Modifié par Nicla Karsavina, 22 juin 2012 - 12:46 .

[AreleX]

mandalore entertains me. you come into my threads with pretentious drivel and continually insult me. you can discuss and theorycraft until you're blue in the face, but when the time comes to get down to brass tacks and back up your words with actions, you cop out.

speed runs require top notch teamwork, individual skill (so one player is not dragging the team down because they can't perform at the level others can), communication, knowledge of classes/guns and game mechanics. I love working with others to learn or accomplish something, have since i started playing sports and joining bands. Think of it as a live band. If one instrument is out of tune, one player forgets the notes, one person is late on their cue, it can bring the entire performance down. on the other hand, think of a live band with a tight set and amazing cohesion and synergy, playing perfectly all the way through. a group of people performing together in perfect harmony is a sight to behold.

many other people enjoy speed runs, be it partaking in them or watching them. if your entire purpose in the thread is to slam speed runs, why not just leave the thread alone entirely? if you wanted to know what makes a speed run an accomplishment to us, you could've simply asked that much, instead of trying to tear down what we've done.

you *still* don't seem to understand the issue with bringing up FBWGG. the thing people don't like about FBWGG is that it requires zero skill and minimal teamwork. you sit behind a counter, you put up a decoy, you grab enemies that get close, you occasionally shoot a rocket, you coast your way to free exp and credits. the problem is not FARMING, the problem is FBWGG's corner of shame. THAT is the reason people look down upon it: it takes no talent to sit behind a decoy, completely safe from harm and getting absolutely free kills. in addition to taking no skill, it is boring as all get-out. in summation, the problem people have is not necessarily with the act of farming, but with the particular slow, unskilled, dead simple method of farming employed in FBWGG. people also don't like that the only games they can find through lobby searching are firebase white farming runs.

do not deign to insult others when you don't have a grasp on the basic tenets of your own argument.

edit: if you want to continue this discussion, pm me. i'm sick of this thread getting derailed by meritless arguments.

Modifié par AreleX, 22 juin 2012 - 01:22 .

[Mandalore313]

Nicla Karsavina wrote...

blah blah blah yada yada yada

I find it ironic that you call my response to your overly pompous and nonsensical insult against speedruns an act of the now dominant audacious illiterate people and then proceed to compare a performance by Mario del Monaco to that of a guy on a TV talent show. To add insult to injury, you insinuate I'm an idiot and then accuse me of insinuating.

If you were as knowledgeable as you are trying to be, by using big words and mentioning great yet no so famous artists then you would know the difference between fbwgg farming and speedruns.

Our country has a saying : "Sciolism is worse than ignorance"

Your posts confirm our saying.
Don't you agree?

[Nicla Karsavina]

 @ Arelex: insults have the habit of coming back to their source, as you certainly know. So if you're insult me suggesting that I'm not entitled to have any opinion unless I prove I'm a better player than you (but as you did the fastest speed run, then nobody is entitled to say anything), I'm eager to make a fair exchange of courtesy.
But I want to be honest and yes, you opened a thread because you've accomplished something, you did best than other teams and wanted to be congratulated; I used it to start a theoretical discussion on speed runs in general, giving the impression that I wanted to dismiss your accomplishment (I did not, I simply ignored it), and I understand it annoyed you. So I can't deny it was my mistake in the first place.
Please let's drop the FBW argument, God I wish I never mentioned it, as people continue to say that I'm asserting that they are the same thing, while I just said they share certain similarities (i.e. camping carefully and kill enemies in large group) in order to point out that both strategies makes a gold game easier. But things that shares similarities are not the same thing, as a nut is not a brain and a banana is not a penis.

AreleX wrote...if you wanted to know what makes a speed run an accomplishment to us, you could've simply asked that much, instead of trying to tear down what we've done.

 
I did the first thing (by the way, you just answered to my questions now), I didn't do the latter (as I said, I totally ignored it). But as I was expressing some reservation to speed runs, I repeat, in general, you just thought I was tearing you down.
I hope this can end the arguing. 

@ Mandalore. Wait, who is the "guy on a TV talent show" you're talking about? 
But let's just drop this, ok? If you really think I'm so stupid to assert that speed run and a farming FBW session are the same thing, and that's pretty much all you were able to extract from my words, then you have a good reason not to talk to me - I wouldn't talk to me either.

Modifié par Nicla Karsavina, 22 juin 2012 - 07:56 .

[Ashen One]

Nicla Karsavina wrote...

 
Please let's drop the FBW argument, God I wish I never mentioned it, as people continue to say that I'm asserting that they are the same thing, while I just said they share certain similarities (i.e. camping carefully and kill enemies in large group)

I don't "camp" when I do speed runs, I rush the spawn points and destroy them with AoE powers and weapons before they have a chance to respond.

Posts like that pretty much confirm that you've never done a speed run. Camping at any point in time defeats the purpose of a speed run. the idea is that the team will move as a group, and decimate the enemy spawns. It becomes a "speed run" when every one of the players is capable of knowing where the enemies spawn at any point in time, and when each player is capable of functioning efficiently alone, or in a smaller group. (allowing you to destroy multiple spawns at once)


They really share no similarities.

Well, at least not the similarities you mentioned.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 22 juin 2012 - 08:30 .

[AreleX]

we're doing some fun stuff with the pc players for the weekend event that i'm sure you'll enjoy, look for it soon

[UkGouki]

AreleX wrote...

we're doing some fun stuff with the pc players for the weekend event that i'm sure you'll enjoy, look for it soon

nice ill look for the vids on youtube;)

[Creston918]

Hats off, man. That's seriously, insanely fast. I can't even complete BRONZE that fast. (though to be fair, on Bronze you spend minutes just trying to actually find the enemy. )

In any case, kudos. Major, major kudos.