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Do you want your DA 3 protagonist to be a seeker?


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#201
terdferguson123

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LobselVith8 wrote...

ianvillain wrote...

David Gaider stated in another thread that there is no such thing as atheism and everyone believes in the maker, so it seems more likely that you will have to be a seeker in the next game.


The Warden could be atheist. The Cousland Warden can say, explicitly, that he doesn't believe in the Maker. Morrigan tells Leliana that she doesn't believe in the Maker, and that she believes in no higher power. Gaider is incorrect to claim that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas - it clearly does. Even the philosophy of the Qun doesn't seem to have the Qunari worship any deities, but follow a particular way of life.

Simply because Gaider wants to prevent the protagonist of Dragon Age III from having the option to be atheist because of his own personal views doesn't mean that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas. If the protagonist is going to be forced to be Andrastian again - in addition to the return of the terrible paraphrasing, the auto-lines, the mandatory companion attire - I'm not seeing much of a reason to put myself through another headache with a game that is going to repeat the same flaws that were abundant with Dragon Age II.


Look up the definition of Atheism. Atheists do not "believe" that gods don't exist. They apparently "know" which doesn't make any sense, since there is no way to possibly 100% know that one does not exist. Believe me, as someone who is not religious, I think that Atheists who claim to know that no god exists, are just as dumb as the super religious who believe without a shadow of a doubt that god is real. Both cannot be answered, and there is no way for anyone to know. With that said, Dragon Age is similar but some evidence for the maker actually exists (like the black city in the fade). I think it's more safe to say that the Warden can be Agnostic, rather than Atheist.

Modifié par terdferguson123, 16 juillet 2012 - 05:09 .


#202
EpicBoot2daFace

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terdferguson123 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

ianvillain wrote...

David Gaider stated in another thread that there is no such thing as atheism and everyone believes in the maker, so it seems more likely that you will have to be a seeker in the next game.


The Warden could be atheist. The Cousland Warden can say, explicitly, that he doesn't believe in the Maker. Morrigan tells Leliana that she doesn't believe in the Maker, and that she believes in no higher power. Gaider is incorrect to claim that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas - it clearly does. Even the philosophy of the Qun doesn't seem to have the Qunari worship any deities, but follow a particular way of life.

Simply because Gaider wants to prevent the protagonist of Dragon Age III from having the option to be atheist because of his own personal views doesn't mean that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas. If the protagonist is going to be forced to be Andrastian again - in addition to the return of the terrible paraphrasing, the auto-lines, the mandatory companion attire - I'm not seeing much of a reason to put myself through another headache with a game that is going to repeat the same flaws that were abundant with Dragon Age II.


Look up the definition of Atheism. Atheists do not "believe" that gods don't exist. They apparently "know" which doesn't make any sense, since there is no way to possibly 100% know that one does not exist. Believe me, as someone who is not religious, I think that Atheists who claim to know that no god exists, are just as dumb as the super religious who believe without a shadow of a doubt that god is real. Both cannot be answered, and there is no way for anyone to know. With that said, Dragon Age is similar but some evidence for the maker actually exists (like the black city in the fade). I think it's more safe to say that the Warden can be Agnostic, rather than Atheist.

Wrong.

Atheism: a disbelief in the existence of deity.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

Anyway, David Gaider is clearly wrong as well. As stated above, Morrigan is an atheist and the Cousland warden has a chance to also say it very plainly to a priest at the beginning of the game. Which brings up an interesting point. It means David Gaider apparently knows less than we do about the franchise he helped establish. Scary.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 16 juillet 2012 - 06:34 .


#203
Feuerwerke

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I don't really want to play as a Seeker so much as I want Cassandra as a companion. Maybe an ordinary citizen of Thedas of whatever race and loyalty that could end up following along with the Seekers for a multitude of reasons depending on what you pick could be interesting, though. Maybe give the option of beginning as a Seeker but there also being other choices could be cool.

#204
TheShadowWolf911

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EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

ianvillain wrote...

David Gaider stated in another thread that there is no such thing as atheism and everyone believes in the maker, so it seems more likely that you will have to be a seeker in the next game.


The Warden could be atheist. The Cousland Warden can say, explicitly, that he doesn't believe in the Maker. Morrigan tells Leliana that she doesn't believe in the Maker, and that she believes in no higher power. Gaider is incorrect to claim that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas - it clearly does. Even the philosophy of the Qun doesn't seem to have the Qunari worship any deities, but follow a particular way of life.

Simply because Gaider wants to prevent the protagonist of Dragon Age III from having the option to be atheist because of his own personal views doesn't mean that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas. If the protagonist is going to be forced to be Andrastian again - in addition to the return of the terrible paraphrasing, the auto-lines, the mandatory companion attire - I'm not seeing much of a reason to put myself through another headache with a game that is going to repeat the same flaws that were abundant with Dragon Age II.


Look up the definition of Atheism. Atheists do not "believe" that gods don't exist. They apparently "know" which doesn't make any sense, since there is no way to possibly 100% know that one does not exist. Believe me, as someone who is not religious, I think that Atheists who claim to know that no god exists, are just as dumb as the super religious who believe without a shadow of a doubt that god is real. Both cannot be answered, and there is no way for anyone to know. With that said, Dragon Age is similar but some evidence for the maker actually exists (like the black city in the fade). I think it's more safe to say that the Warden can be Agnostic, rather than Atheist.

Wrong.

Atheism: a disbelief in the existence of deity.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

Anyway, David Gaider is clearly wrong as well. As stated above, Morrigan is an atheist and the Cousland warden has a chance to also say it very plainly to a priest at the beginning of the game. Which brings up an interesting point. It means David Gaider apparently knows less than we do about the franchise he helped establish. Scary.


she also doesn't believe in a afterlife despite meeting a SODDING GHOST.  Face it, in Dragon Age, Aethism is most likely wrong. Dunno about real life or Mass Effect (im leaning towards no due to the God Child Defying multiple laws of science in Mass Effect's case) Theres too much evidence against it.

Modifié par TheShadowWolf911, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:54 .


#205
Iakus

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A Seeker might be interesting. But as long as we have a degree of agency and self-definition, I'm flexible with almost anything.

#206
PainS

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No, I actually don't want it to be a seeker. Not that i mind if Bioware decides to go on that path.

I'd rather have him/her as a Dalish or just a city Elf who's a direct descendant of some powerful elf during the time of Arlathan. He/She constantly has vague dreams about the past (like ancient past) and somehow that would affect the story or at least answer some questions about the history of the elves.

I just want it to be that because the lore of DA is so complex that every question might be left unanswered, not that everything has to be answered, a little mystery can't hurt, but the important historical events should be understood more.

Anyways, back to protagonist characters, it could be a seeker elf I guess. But a blood mage elf is good too, even though we've seen that before.

Whatever the class is, I just want it to be an elf. We already have 2 humans as protagonists, let's make this one an elf. Not DA 2 elves, they look horrible, DA O elves are alright but they need tweaking. No dwarfs or Qunari. I want to look good for my romancing stuff.

#207
LobselVith8

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TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

she also doesn't believe in a afterlife despite meeting a SODDING GHOST.  Face it, in Dragon Age, Aethism is most likely wrong. Dunno about real life or Mass Effect (im leaning towards no due to the God Child Defying multiple laws of science in Mass Effect's case) Theres too much evidence against it.


Ghosts don't prove the existance of the Maker, the Creators, or any higher power. Ghosts are simply ghosts - Thedas is a place of magic, but even magic doesn't prove whether the gods are real or not. There's no proof the Maker exists, as the philosophical debates reveal, where spirits are explicitly mentioned:

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?

Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: so it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.

Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.

As we see, magic and spirits don't mean atheism is impossible or wrong.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 juillet 2012 - 01:32 .


#208
Xilizhra

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Well, a-Andrastianism, at least. I agree, that should be an option for the PC's belief system, though I really don't think it was ever explicitly denied in DA2... somewhat annoyingly implied sometimes, but I can work my way out of it.

#209
Saberchic

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Playing as a seeker? No thanks.

#210
Olmerto

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As long as the story is compelling, I'll be a Seeker or any other role Bioware gives me to play. You could do a lot worse than being a Seeker.

#211
Eternal Phoenix

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EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

ianvillain wrote...

David Gaider stated in another thread that there is no such thing as atheism and everyone believes in the maker, so it seems more likely that you will have to be a seeker in the next game.


The Warden could be atheist. The Cousland Warden can say, explicitly, that he doesn't believe in the Maker. Morrigan tells Leliana that she doesn't believe in the Maker, and that she believes in no higher power. Gaider is incorrect to claim that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas - it clearly does. Even the philosophy of the Qun doesn't seem to have the Qunari worship any deities, but follow a particular way of life.

Simply because Gaider wants to prevent the protagonist of Dragon Age III from having the option to be atheist because of his own personal views doesn't mean that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas. If the protagonist is going to be forced to be Andrastian again - in addition to the return of the terrible paraphrasing, the auto-lines, the mandatory companion attire - I'm not seeing much of a reason to put myself through another headache with a game that is going to repeat the same flaws that were abundant with Dragon Age II.


Look up the definition of Atheism. Atheists do not "believe" that gods don't exist. They apparently "know" which doesn't make any sense, since there is no way to possibly 100% know that one does not exist. Believe me, as someone who is not religious, I think that Atheists who claim to know that no god exists, are just as dumb as the super religious who believe without a shadow of a doubt that god is real. Both cannot be answered, and there is no way for anyone to know. With that said, Dragon Age is similar but some evidence for the maker actually exists (like the black city in the fade). I think it's more safe to say that the Warden can be Agnostic, rather than Atheist.

Wrong.

Atheism: a disbelief in the existence of deity.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism

Anyway, David Gaider is clearly wrong as well. As stated above, Morrigan is an atheist and the Cousland warden has a chance to also say it very plainly to a priest at the beginning of the game. Which brings up an interesting point. It means David Gaider apparently knows less than we do about the franchise he helped establish. Scary.


Everyone believes something. Disbelief is just another world for not believing. To say you don't believe in a god or gods is a belief itself as you believe that no gods exist. Morrigan isn't an atheist because she believes in the old gods and The Warden can deny The Maker but can't down-right state that he/she doesn't believe in a creator or creators. 

Whether there's people in the game who actually believe no god or gods at all exist is another matter that hasn't been answered. The dwarves don't worship any gods but does this mean that they're atheists? Who knows? Maybe they don't believe in gods or maybe they happen to be deists who believe that something created the universe and everything within and then left it or maybe they're agnostics. Quite frankly, it's established that the old gods were real. Therefore atheism wouldn't make sense in the DA universe. Whether The Maker is real and IS the creator god is a matter of dispute.

#212
KiwiQuiche

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Ugh, there is a difference between religion and spiritualism. You can still believe in outside forces, spirits and othersuch things while not being religious. Belief and religion are different.

That being said, no, I don't want a Seeker. I hate anything to do with the Chanty, selfrighteous jackasses that they are.

#213
LobselVith8

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Elton John is Dead wrote...

Morrigan isn't an atheist because she believes in the old gods and The Warden can deny the Maker but cant down-right state that he/she doesn't believe in a creator or creators.


Morrigan explicitly tells Leliana that she doesn't believe in the Maker or a higher power, and everyone believes in the Old Gods because they become Archdemons - the difference is that it was the Tevinter mages who worshipped them. As for The Warden, the line is a valid option to express atheism. The Andrastian Chantry is the only religion the Cousland protagonist has exposure to. Further dialogue with Leliana can make it clear that he doesn't think Andraste was anything more than a regular person. I don't see how you can deny that it's a valid option for the protagonist to express atheism.

Elton John is Dead wrote...

Therefore atheism wouldn't make sense in the DA universe.


Considering the Qunari follow a philosophy don't seem to worship any deities, I don't see how you can seriously claim that atheism wouldn't make sense. Even the Surana Warden can make it clear that he doesn't worship the Maker, and doesn't believe Andraste was anyone but a regular human.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 juillet 2012 - 02:40 .


#214
GavrielKay

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Elton John is dead wrote...
Everyone believes something. Disbelief is just another world for not believing.


No.

Unless you want to say that not believing in unicorns or Thor is a "belief."

Atheism is more about the rational decision to not live your life according to ancient stories and morals than it is about an active disbelief.  It is about refusing to let something that can't be proven dictate how you behave.  Just about everyone is "atheist" about all the religions that they don't practice.

I would not want to play a Seeker.  I would not buy DA3 if there were no option other than playing a Seeker.

#215
FKA_Servo

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Elton John is dead wrote...

Everyone believes something. Disbelief is just another world for not believing. To say you don't believe in a god or gods is a belief itself as you believe that no gods exist. Morrigan isn't an atheist because she believes in the old gods and The Warden can deny The Maker but can't down-right state that he/she doesn't believe in a creator or creators. 

Whether there's people in the game who actually believe no god or gods at all exist is another matter that hasn't been answered. The dwarves don't worship any gods but does this mean that they're atheists? Who knows? Maybe they don't believe in gods or maybe they happen to be deists who believe that something created the universe and everything within and then left it or maybe they're agnostics. Quite frankly, it's established that the old gods were real. Therefore atheism wouldn't make sense in the DA universe. Whether The Maker is real and IS the creator god is a matter of dispute.


Atheism is a belief system in the same way that bald is a hairstyle and off is a TV channel. To say I don't believe in god or gods is to say... I don't believe in god or gods. I don't positively assert a belief in their nonexistence. Like most atheists, I have more important things to worry about.

That said, it's been established that the old gods are things that exist - the jury is still out on whether they were gods. Being an atheist in Thedas makes about as much sense as being one in the real world - that's to say, a lot.

I wouldn't mind playing a seeker if we had the option to embrace or disavow the chantry's teachings - but clearly, that's not on track to happen.

Bringing back origins, and having a seeker origin (or a qun origin) would be badass. Maybe a templar and apostate origin as well.

Modifié par TommyServo, 18 juillet 2012 - 06:38 .


#216
AngryFrozenWater

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

Thank you for this one. It so fits the other BW game. :lol:

#217
TheShadowWolf911

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LobselVith8 wrote...

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

she also doesn't believe in a afterlife despite meeting a SODDING GHOST.  Face it, in Dragon Age, Aethism is most likely wrong. Dunno about real life or Mass Effect (im leaning towards no due to the God Child Defying multiple laws of science in Mass Effect's case) Theres too much evidence against it.


Ghosts don't prove the existance of the Maker, the Creators, or any higher power. Ghosts are simply ghosts - Thedas is a place of magic, but even magic doesn't prove whether the gods are real or not. There's no proof the Maker exists, as the philosophical debates reveal, where spirits are explicitly mentioned:

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?

Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: so it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.

Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.

As we see, magic and spirits don't mean atheism is impossible or wrong.


hello Andraste's ashes? whats this? you heal poisons and diseases? how does that that work?

#218
LobselVith8

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TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

hello Andraste's ashes? whats this? you heal poisons and diseases? how does that work?


According to Oghren, it's because of the thick wall of lyrium that is having an effect on everything in the ruined temple - especially the ashes.

#219
EricHVela

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I'm more partial to playing a specific Templar over a custom Seeker (and most partial to playing a new character unlike anything we've seen thus far).

Yet, that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to play a Seeker. It's just not at the top of my list. The idea is interesting enough to put it in the top 5 for me.

#220
Cadeym

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terdferguson123 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

ianvillain wrote...

David Gaider stated in another thread that there is no such thing as atheism and everyone believes in the maker, so it seems more likely that you will have to be a seeker in the next game.


The Warden could be atheist. The Cousland Warden can say, explicitly, that he doesn't believe in the Maker. Morrigan tells Leliana that she doesn't believe in the Maker, and that she believes in no higher power. Gaider is incorrect to claim that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas - it clearly does. Even the philosophy of the Qun doesn't seem to have the Qunari worship any deities, but follow a particular way of life.

Simply because Gaider wants to prevent the protagonist of Dragon Age III from having the option to be atheist because of his own personal views doesn't mean that atheism doesn't exist in Thedas. If the protagonist is going to be forced to be Andrastian again - in addition to the return of the terrible paraphrasing, the auto-lines, the mandatory companion attire - I'm not seeing much of a reason to put myself through another headache with a game that is going to repeat the same flaws that were abundant with Dragon Age II.


Look up the definition of Atheism. Atheists do not "believe" that gods don't exist. They apparently "know" which doesn't make any sense, since there is no way to possibly 100% know that one does not exist. Believe me, as someone who is not religious, I think that Atheists who claim to know that no god exists, are just as dumb as the super religious who believe without a shadow of a doubt that god is real. Both cannot be answered, and there is no way for anyone to know. With that said, Dragon Age is similar but some evidence for the maker actually exists (like the black city in the fade). I think it's more safe to say that the Warden can be Agnostic, rather than Atheist.

Are you for real? an Atheists is a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.... seems to me that it is you who should look up the meaning of the word.

#221
EricHVela

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Mouseraider wrote...

Are you for real? an Atheists is a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.... seems to me that it is you who should look up the meaning of the word.

Atheism is word people apply to a method of philosophy towards deities. A word's etymology does not necessarily describe the modern usage with accuracy. (English is ripe with examples of words that have deviated from their etymology.)

However, modern Atheism has two identifiable sects at this time:
Strong Atheism makes the claim that there are no deities and accept that they have made a conclusion without the 100% irrefutable proof any more than those that claim that deities exist. Strong Atheism is very akin to what most people associate as a religion.

Weak Atheism is simply the claim to reject all assertions that any deities exist without actually stating that deities do not exist. This ignores the whole quip about eliminating all other possibilities which leaves the truth, however improbable. They use cliché "discussion" tactics to demand proof from "positive assertions" of the existence of deities despite the implied assertion they have made by rejecting all other possible assertions. Weak Atheism is very akin to what most people associate as stubborn.

I think this is the same in the Dragon Age setting. You have those that have found personal peace with their belief that there is no Maker, and you have those that go out of their way to challenge others that claim there is a Maker.

#222
GavrielKay

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ReggarBlane wrote...
However, modern Atheism has two identifiable sects at this time:
Strong Atheism makes the claim that there are no deities and accept that they have made a conclusion without the 100% irrefutable proof any more than those that claim that deities exist. Strong Atheism is very akin to what most people associate as a religion.

Weak Atheism is simply the claim to reject all assertions that any deities exist without actually stating that deities do not exist. This ignores the whole quip about eliminating all other possibilities which leaves the truth, however improbable. They use cliché "discussion" tactics to demand proof from "positive assertions" of the existence of deities despite the implied assertion they have made by rejecting all other possible assertions. Weak Atheism is very akin to what most people associate as stubborn.

I think this is the same in the Dragon Age setting. You have those that have found personal peace with their belief that there is no Maker, and you have those that go out of their way to challenge others that claim there is a Maker.


Your first group is mostly made up of some very vocal people who feel there must be some voice out there speaking against the political pressure exerted by extreme religious factions.  In their day to day lives, I can tell you from personal experience, a firm belief in the nonexistance of a supernatural being is not what most atheists dwell on.  It would be akin to spending lots of time thinking about how unicorns and the monster under the bed don't exist.

I see this whole "atheism as a belief system" being used by the religious in some weird attempt to make it seem like everyone believes in something they can't prove.  Like another poster said, atheism is a belief like off is a TV channel.  If I don't buy from the traveling salesman, I haven't "purchased nothing."

Morrigan is clearly atheist in the quote above.  But it was Leliana who asked the question.  Morrigan was not going out of her way to convince Leliana to abandon her faith.  There is a difference between not wanting to be preached at and not wanting the preacher to believe either.

There's another distinction too.  You can believe in spirituality or the supernatural without believing in a "personal" deity.  By which I mean, Morrigan could believe that there's some super-spirit in the Fade who used to inhabit the Black City, without believing that spirit is in any way like the father figure his worshipers claim.  You can have a supreme being who doesn't give a darn about mortals.  It would be as if ants started to worship humans - we wouldn't know or care about this.

#223
EricHVela

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GavrielKay wrote...

Your first group is mostly made up of some very vocal people who feel there must be some voice out there speaking against the political pressure exerted by extreme religious factions.  In their day to day lives, I can tell you from personal experience, a firm belief in the nonexistance of a supernatural being is not what most atheists dwell on.  It would be akin to spending lots of time thinking about how unicorns and the monster under the bed don't exist.

I see this whole "atheism as a belief system" being used by the religious in some weird attempt to make it seem like everyone believes in something they can't prove.  Like another poster said, atheism is a belief like off is a TV channel.  If I don't buy from the traveling salesman, I haven't "purchased nothing."

You seem to have misread my post.

Strong Atheism doesn't attempt to challenge those who believe in a deity. Their personal belief affects every aspect of their lives like one does when practicing a religion, and they accept that people are free to believe what they wish, deities or no.

Weak Atheists go about and challenge others who believe, usually stating "righteous" crusades of being oppressed when others' beliefs in deities should not (and most of the time, does not) necessarily affect them -- words are words, sticks and stones. Weak Atheists also commonly make the claim that one cannot make an assertion that they believe something does not exist. They often make the claim that rejecting all assertions is the same as not doing something and implies nothing. These are the cliché arguments that I mentioned. By the standards that Weak Atheists apply against a belief in deities, science doesn't exist, either, but they often make exceptions to the rules so that they accept science "evidence" without contesting the evidence in the same manner. This is hypocrisy.

Let's take on the TV off situation (that I'm sure they heard someone else say and they thought was witty). It is incongruent to compare a TV's singular off state to a range a TV's on state. One should only draw an anology on the states themselves and not inequal states contained within them. A correct analogy would be the TV tuned to a frequency receiving a signal versus tuned to a frequency that has no signal. It's still tuned but to something different.

The purchase situation is also inapplicable (also likely something that someone else said that they thought was witty). It's a situation of refusing to accept something that actually exists.

In my experience with Atheists, weak Atheists often cite a situation where they feel they were slighted by some deity in a situation where they feel such a deity would have done something. This is not always the case, but it has been the most common.

If the idea that there is no deity guides your decisions and you live and let live instead of going out of your way to confront those who claim otherwise and you have willingly drawn a solid conclusion for yourself without the need for 100% irrefutable proof, you are a Strong Atheist and you equal those that follow other religions.

If you try to prove yourself better than others by making logical claims in one instance and not in another instance as it suits you, if you accost those who simply spout words that should not mean anything to you, if you have nothing to offer from yourself other than saying "no" to whatever you hear by forcing others to provide all the evidence in the universe, if you are angry at a deity that didn't do something that you expected and, usually, if you spout some dribble you heard someone else say, you might be a Weak Atheist.

Morrigan seems like a Strong Atheist. Anders in the second Dragon Age is definitely a Weak Atheist. Morrigan answers her belief with what she accepts as evidence only when directly provoked. Anders openly seeks to provoke and offers nothing but the claim that the Maker would have done something about a situation if the Maker existed.

#224
LobselVith8

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ReggarBlane wrote...

Anders in the second Dragon Age is definitely a Weak Atheist.


Considering that Anders believes in the Maker, I don't see how you can consider him an atheist. His arguments with Merrill over her Dalish beliefs (such as his view that spirits and demons are Children of the Maker, which she doesn't believe because the Dalish believe in the Creators) make it clear that he is religiously Andrastian; his main contention is with the Chantry organization and the Order of Templars because of their treatment of mages in a system he views to be slavery (as did the historical Aldenon), not with the Maker or Andraste.

Also, GavrielKay is making the point that plenty of people who are atheists are simply atheists, and that it's simply a facet of who they are, and not something that determines the entirety of their whole existence. As she points out, Morrigan doesn't even bring up her atheist views until Leliana engages her in discussion over her views.

#225
GavrielKay

GavrielKay
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ReggarBlane wrote...
Strong Atheism doesn't attempt to challenge those who believe in a deity.


You are creating labels that suit you, which is fine, but I think they are very artificial.

Belief is a spectrum...  absolute faitn in a supreme being on one end and absolute belief in the lack of a supreme being on the other.  On either extreme you have people who completely buy into something that they can't prove.  At the extremes, the possibility of being wrong is a horrible notion to the believer.  They hate to have their beliefs challenged and find it offensive if you don't share them.

There are actually very few people on the extreme "lack" side of this spectrum.  Rational people admit that you can't prove a negative.  Of course, like most issues, it's the extreme people who are the most vocal and thus give a false impression of their numbers.

By the standards that Weak Atheists apply against a belief in deities, science doesn't exist, either, but they often make exceptions to the rules so that they accept science "evidence" without contesting the evidence in the same manner. This is hypocrisy.


I have no idea what you are talking about here.  Science is merely a framework for drawing conclusions from observations.

A correct analogy would be the TV tuned to a frequency receiving a signal versus tuned to a frequency that has no signal. It's still tuned but to something different.


No.  That misconception is why you declare atheism is a faith.  But I think you're wrong, it is exactly like the TV being off.

Morrigan expresses the common form of atheism.   She doesn't say there is absolutely no way the Maker could possibly exist.  She says she doesn't need faith to explain the moon overhead or comfort her.  Leliana expresses the more extreme version of faith...  needing it to make sense of her world.  Leliana's view requires the existance of the Maker, Morrigan's view does not require his absence.  In general an easy way to look at it is that Leliana would be far more devastated to learn the Maker didn't exist than Morrigan would be to learn he did.

I played my Warden like Morrigan.  She took everything the Chantry said with a grain of salt, but admitted that they could be right.  A Seeker, given the lore, would have to be assumed to either have strong faith or have been able to fool everyone into thinking she did.  I wouldn't want to have that background for my character.