40 réponses à ce sujet

[Rustle_Wastaken]

I know there are already a billion topics on "OMG shapeshifting sucks", but I have yet to see Bioware's official defense.  Have they ever tried to come out and say why exactly they think shapeshifting isn't complete and utter crap?

I know this has all been done to death but... I just don't get how someone could have thought, "wow this spider form is so powerful, we'd better give it a 10 minute cast time".  Or, wow, bear form is nearly as powerful as the ranger pet, we'd better make sure that haste drops right away. 

For some reason, the whole slap-in-the-face of it is just infuriating me today.

[Gelmirthebloody]

Rustle_Wastaken wrote...

For some reason, the whole slap-in-the-face of it is just infuriating me today.

LOL.

I bet bioware is looking at a bunch of balancing for the next patch. Takes time to figure out how to change things.

This sort of change is more complicated than simply making dex work the way it is supposed to (for example).

I get where you are coming from, though.

Modifié par Gelmirthebloody, 13 décembre 2009 - 06:55 .

[Dragon Age1103]

That is strange that they give you a spell to tank, I mean the bear doesn't even have like immense health to just pull aggro & take damage all of the forms serve no purpose or so it seems.

But to answer you & not stray from the topic i have not found anything on a quick google search, sorry.

[Staylost]

Yeah, that was a mistake.



We assume they are rebalancing it, since they've already done some rebalancing.



For me, it is like they just took my baby and gave it to dingos to eat.

[fantasypisces]

My Mage went all the way up to master shapeshifting, but that was just for RP purposes, in truth, after 8 levels since getting the specialization (14-22) I haven't even cast one of the abilities....



I always consider using a mod to go back and redo everything, but I'm trying not to use mods, and it ruins my characters "story". But yeah, I have it, and never use it.

[T0paze]

Well, Shapeshifting really stands out. Arcane Warrior is, well great. Blood Magic is great, too, Spirit Healer is not so great, but still a very solid choice. Shapeshifting, on the other hand, sucks utterly and beyond any hope. No explanation is needed, since none would help (unless Bioware mentions some specific mage build that efficiently uses Shapeshifting - but I doubt so many gamers could overlook that after 6 weeks of playing). They simply need to improve that specialization.

It's hilarious that Prima Official Guide actually recommended Shapeshifting for a DPS mage. I mean, what were they thinking about?

Modifié par T0paze, 13 décembre 2009 - 07:38 .

[JaegerBane]

T0paze wrote...

Well, Shapeshifting really stands out. Arcane Warrior is, well great. Blood Magic is great, too, Spirit Healer is not so great, but still a very solid choice. Shapeshifting, on the other hand, sucks utterly and beyond any hope. No explanation is needed, since none would help (unless Bioware mentions some specific mage build that efficiently uses Shapeshifting - but I doubt so many gamers could overlook that after 6 weeks of playing). They simply need to improve that specialization.

It's hilarious that Prima Official Guide actually recommended Shapeshifting for a DPS mage. I mean, what were they thinking about?

Prima guides tend to be hit and miss. Some of them are brilliant (The old Clive Barker's Undying one springs to mind) but others are absolutely ridiculous.

Regarding Shapeshifting, as far as I'm concerned if they allowed you to cast spells while Shifted then there wouldn't be a problem. It would have been nice to shapeshift into things like Golems or Spirits but ultimately, stopping your caster from casting torpedoed the class before it got a chance.

Even by itself it's a suspect choice. Once pitted against stuff like Arcane Warrior and Blood Mage it begs the question as to whether it should even be called a specialisation at all. Might have been better off as a plot ability like Wynne's Faith thingy.

And on a slightly related point, does anyone else think the AW's Fade Shroud spell is the dog's bollocks? I think it's uber . Far prefer turning into a ghost that can fight and cast spells rather than turning into a spider that can do neither.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 13 décembre 2009 - 07:45 .

[Jsmith0730]

Shapeshifting should have really been it's own four tier school; not a specialization: first tier covering the forms with the other three improving damage, defense & utility.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

T0paze wrote...


It's hilarious that Prima Official Guide actually recommended Shapeshifting for a DPS mage. I mean, what were they thinking about?

It's Prima. 'nuff said.

[6six6Raven6six6]

Mod in the works, for balancing and making shifting cool, here is a draft of the concept for it, mod also focuses on all other specializations, feedback as an IM will be appreciated, if you can offer any suggestions I will be grateful.



Cat Shape

The shapeshifter can transform into a cat, gaining a large bonus to nature resistance, dexterity and cunning as well as the cats’s Feline Stealth and Keen Senses abilities. The caster’s spellpower determines how fast the form is. With Master Shapeshifter, the mage becomes a Black Cat, growing still faster and gaining the Bad Luck ability.





Wolf Shape:

The shapeshifter can transform into a wolf, gaining a large bonus to nature resistance, strength and dexterity as well as the wolf’s Howl and Go For The Jugular abilities. The caster’s spellpower determines how strong the form is. With Master Shapeshifter, the mage becomes a Blight Wolf, growing still stronger and gaining the Pack Hunter ability.





Spider Shape

The shapeshifter can transform into a giant spider, gaining a large bonus to nature resistance, strength and cunning as well as the spider’s Web and Poison Bite abilities. The caster’s spellpower determines how powerful the form is. With Master Shapeshifter, the mage becomes a Corrupted Spider, growing still stronger and gaining the Overwhelm ability.



Bear Shape

The shapeshifter can transform into a bear, gaining large bonuses to nature resistance, strength and constitution as well as the bear’s Slam and Rage abilities. The caster’s spellpower further enhances this bear’s statistics and abilities. With Master Shapeshifter, this form transforms the caster into a powerful Bereskarn and gains the Overwhelm ability.



Flying Swarm

The shapeshifter’s body explodes into a swarm of stinging insects that inflict nature damage on nearby foes, with the damage increasing based on the caster’s spellpower and proximity. While in this form, the caster gains Divide the Storm, and any damage the shapeshifter suffers is drawn from mana instead of health, but the caster regenerates no mana. The caster also gains the Plague Of Locusts skill, which reduces the combat effectiveness of all nearby enemies, the caster does not need to stand close to an enemy that is already suffering the effects of this skill. The swirling cloud of insects is immune to normal missiles and has a very good chance of evading physical attacks but is extremely vulnerable to fire. With Master Shapeshifter, the character gains health whenever the swarm inflicts damage, and gains the Infest ability, which renders a foe unable to fight for a short period, if he fails a physical resistance check, otherwise the enemy suffers a strength and dexterity reduction.



Drake Shape

The shapeshifter can transform into a Drake, gaining large bonuses to nature resistance, strength and willpower as well as the Drake’s Overwhelm and Flame Breath abilities, but suffering a decrease in dexterity and cunning. The caster’s spellpower further enhances this Drake’s statistics and abilities. With Master Shapeshifter, this form transforms the caster into a powerful Dragon and gains the Wing Funnel ability.



Feral Instinct

Becoming more in tune with the animalistic shapes the shapeshifter takes, he gains bonuses to all statistics while in any shape, a small reduction to the cooldown of all skills and a permanent bonus to nature resistance while in human form.



Master Shapeshifter

Mastery of the shifter’s ways alters all forms the caster can take, turning them into their more powerful counterparts and also gains a small boost to mana regeneration in and outside of combat.

[LynxAQ]

The only problem with Shapeshifting imo, is turning into the forms is not instant. It needs to be instant, the cast time makes any form rather pointless.

[thebogle5]

Maybe it's just meant to make Morrigan a little less powerful?



Mages doing too much damage with uber spells? Turn into a stupid wolf and fix the problem TODAY! (or a few minutes later when she's done transforming..)

[Rainen89]

There's many more problems with it than just the cast time...you gain virtually no survivability compared to every other class, you get two pointless abilities, and the form itself has a 3 minute cooldown. (Finally you're removed from the form whenever dialogue/cutscene occurs. To the above poster, if you want to make shapeshifting really good, don't focus so much on lots of forms, just focus on giving the forms abilities that integrate well with the shape itself. Mass web, like the spider boss would've been much more useful than a single target web that has it's duration affect the target about as long as it takes to cast the ability.

[AtreiyaN7]

Well, I dunno. The first time around it was handy a few times when I ran out of mana? It was kind of entertaining at least, but generally I can pretty much do without it at all. I thought the critter forms did reasonable amounts of damage though (I mean, considering I was out of mana on both my Morrigan & my other mage ). They aren't very tough though, so yeah, if you get targeted then it's goodnight.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Jsmith0730 wrote...

Shapeshifting should have really been it's own four tier school; not a specialization: first tier covering the forms with the other three improving damage, defense & utility.

All specializations should've been four tiers.

For shapeshifting, I would've liked to see something just like that.

1) Shapes.
2) DPS increases, different for each shape. Speed for one, pure STR bonus for another, etc.
3) Defensive increases. Defense for one, Armor for another, CON for a third, etc, some mixes, etc.
4) Extra abilities for all shapes, one more for each point.

[Rustle_Wastaken]

So the answer is, No, Bioware hasn't even bothered to try to explain why shapeshifting seemed ok.



Seems funny, that the Fade shapeshifts are instant and better than the class line. Also, there's no re-use timer on fade forms, and you can go straight from one to another (ie, burning man to golem to mouse, without becoming humanoid).



Any fix to shapeshifting must include instant shifting, removal of re-cast timer on shifting, and the ability to shift directly from one form to another. That would make it at least useable. After that, if you want to go one step further and make it actually fun, you need to make at least some sustains continue after you shift, and preferably make at least some spells castable in forms. For example, make the insect swarm spell castable while in insect swarm form.

[Bullets McDeath]

Rustle_Wastaken wrote...

So the answer is, No, Bioware hasn't even bothered to try to explain why shapeshifting seemed ok.

Seems funny, that the Fade shapeshifts are instant and better than the class line. Also, there's no re-use timer on fade forms, and you can go straight from one to another (ie, burning man to golem to mouse, without becoming humanoid).

Any fix to shapeshifting must include instant shifting, removal of re-cast timer on shifting, and the ability to shift directly from one form to another. That would make it at least useable. After that, if you want to go one step further and make it actually fun, you need to make at least some sustains continue after you shift, and preferably make at least some spells castable in forms. For example, make the insect swarm spell castable while in insect swarm form.

You have to go back to human form before changing forms in the Fade. Otherwise, I agree... the Fade shapeshifting was miles and miles and miles better than the real class. I really can't get my head around how the Shapeshifter spec made it into the release. It is SO bad. I have lots of tiny gripes and things I would change about the game, the Shapeshifter spec is the only mechanic I would actually call Bioware retarded for. It's that bad.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 13 décembre 2009 - 08:59 .

[thebogle5]

Rustle_Wastaken wrote...

Any fix to shapeshifting must include instant shifting, removal of re-cast timer on shifting, and the ability to shift directly from one form to another. That would make it at least useable. After that, if you want to go one step further and make it actually fun, you need to make at least some sustains continue after you shift, and preferably make at least some spells castable in forms. For example, make the insect swarm spell castable while in insect swarm form.

Laughed out loud..

[DarkSpiral]

outlaworacle wrote...

You have to go back to human form before changing forms in the Fade. Otherwise, I agree... the Fade shapeshifting was miles and miles and miles better than the real class. I really can't get my head around how the Shapeshifter spec made it into the release. It is SO bad. I have lots of tiny gripes and things I would change about the game, the Shapeshifter spec is the only mechanic I would actually call Bioware retarded for. It's that bad.

While your character does become human again before swapping to another form, the entire process is still one action.  One button press, one radial menu selection, etc.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Fade shapeshifting is done in a dream realm and can be done by anyone because its a dream

Mage shapeshifting is done in the proper realm by mages only because only mages could truly learn how to do it and yes it does take time for them to shift. I actually like that because it brings a bit of 'realism' into the equation.

It should definitly NOT be an instant-cast thing.

[kevinwastaken]

Shapeshifting looks like an aborted attempt at making a "cool" spell tree. It doesn't appear that any serious effort was ever put into it.

[Inzhuna]

That's a mod with expanded shapeshifting http://dragonagenexu.../file.php?id=91

And this one removes the casting time http://dragonagenexu.../file.php?id=84

[Rustle_Wastaken]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Fade shapeshifting is done in a dream realm and can be done by anyone because its a dream

Mage shapeshifting is done in the proper realm by mages only because only mages could truly learn how to do it and yes it does take time for them to shift. I actually like that because it brings a bit of 'realism' into the equation.

It should definitly NOT be an instant-cast thing.

Transforming into a giant spider is realistic, because it takes a long time? 

Benjamin's Law: first come game mechanics that work, then comes the lore to make those mechanics fit into the world.  Lore can be cleverly written to justify just about any game mechanic.  However, no amount of lore can take crap game mechanics, and make it fun.  There is nothing fun about watching your character wave his hands in the air for 4 years, all the while watching mobs beat him/her down, just so you can turn into a form that is vastly less powerful and has fewer options than regular caster form.  And just for you, I've tried watching it while thinking, "makes sense for my warden to wave them around like he just don't care, cuz I listen to hip-hop while I'm stuck in traffic, and what he's doing right now is clearly just as exciting".  Alas, the realism of knowing my warden has an iPod does not seem to improve the play experience for me.

"In Thedas, shapeshifters are supposed to be rare.  So it makes sense that every shapeshifter character I make dies quickly and without a fuss.  Its so realistic, its Darwinian!".  Might be true, but it doesn't help the game. Mechanics first, lore after.  Never argue for mechanics based on lore, because that never results in a better playing experience.  K?

Modifié par Rustle_Wastaken, 14 décembre 2009 - 10:55 .

[Dolomite808]

Yeah, Shapeshifting is basically useless in this game in it's current incarnation. Personally, I vote for either a total ground up revamp (to function more like fade-shifting) or just toss the whole specialization and go with something else.

[Faffnr]

They should have given many forms per spell. E.g. small size, medium size, large size, master shifter. Or maybe Animal form, Insect form, Drake form, with different options. AW already gives you the ability to tank, Shapeshifter needs to be different and useful.