40 réponses à ce sujet

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Rustle_Wastaken wrote...

I know there are already a billion topics on "OMG shapeshifting sucks", but I have yet to see Bioware's official defense.  Have they ever tried to come out and say why exactly they think shapeshifting isn't complete and utter crap?

I know this has all been done to death but... I just don't get how someone could have thought, "wow this spider form is so powerful, we'd better give it a 10 minute cast time".  Or, wow, bear form is nearly as powerful as the ranger pet, we'd better make sure that haste drops right away. 

For some reason, the whole slap-in-the-face of it is just infuriating me today.

The reason Shapeshifting is bad is this:

-Strength, Armour, AP are too low on the original forms.

Easily remedied by a mod, and it makes Shapeshifting quite awesome.

Alternatively, pump up the Strength on your Mage you'll be fairly effective.  You'll still be lacking Armour but atleast you'll be doing damage.

[Palathas]

If it did something like the Fade forms and healed you when you shifted then I could understand the cool down timers. With the casting time there and the form's abilities being what they are the cool down timers should really be taken out entirely.

[Lordwolf89]

as for me i would love to use some shapeshifitng, but yeah, more interesting forms...like.. if you take the Master shapeshifting spell you could be able to become a dragon or a golem or stuff like that... before master shapeshifitng jsut...basic animal forms..and i woul dlvoe for the animals to have abilities of their own..like dog has... forexample a dragon: breathing fire and stuff like that, a bear, overwhelm, golem..rockarmor and would do exelent as a tank much like having a second shale, as it is now...i thin the ranger ability of Rouges is the better choise as bloodmages can sacrifice those instead of other party members and they act like a fifth party member

[Turambar29]

Rustle_Wastaken wrote...

Transforming into a giant spider is realistic, because it takes a long time? 

Benjamin's Law: first come game mechanics that work, then comes the lore to make those mechanics fit into the world.  Lore can be cleverly written to justify just about any game mechanic.  However, no amount of lore can take crap game mechanics, and make it fun.  There is nothing fun about watching your character wave his hands in the air for 4 years, all the while watching mobs beat him/her down, just so you can turn into a form that is vastly less powerful and has fewer options than regular caster form.  And just for you, I've tried watching it while thinking, "makes sense for my warden to wave them around like he just don't care, cuz I listen to hip-hop while I'm stuck in traffic, and what he's doing right now is clearly just as exciting".  Alas, the realism of knowing my warden has an iPod does not seem to improve the play experience for me.

"In Thedas, shapeshifters are supposed to be rare.  So it makes sense that every shapeshifter character I make dies quickly and without a fuss.  Its so realistic, its Darwinian!".  Might be true, but it doesn't help the game. Mechanics first, lore after.  Never argue for mechanics based on lore, because that never results in a better playing experience.  K?

One of the funniest posts I've seen- thanks for the witty reply!  I laughed so hard!

Modifié par Turambar29, 15 décembre 2009 - 01:35 .

[TheNecroFiend]

One of the devs addressed it in a thread on the old forums. His response was to throw a hissy fit and dared the players to do better.

[Bullets McDeath]

TheNecroFiend wrote...

One of the devs addressed it in a thread on the old forums. His response was to throw a hissy fit and dared the players to do better.

lol they have

even the worst shapeshifting mods are better than what came with the game :innocent:

[EvilIguana966]

This isn't D&D where spells have verbal and somatic components, so I see no reason why mages shouldn't be able to cast while in animal form. They still have a human (or elven) mind and that should allow them to channel the magic. Of course if you let them cast in animal form, you would have to add some negative to balance it out. I think either a significant fatigue penalty or a mana drain like Haste would do the trick. Then remove the casting time or make it reasonable. Voila, shapeshifting becomes a useful modal ability that the mage will activate on to get form specific benefits. I don't really see any clear alternative, because anything that eliminates the mage's ability to cast spells will gimp the character. You don't bring a mage to be a sub-par tank or mediocre damage dealer, you bring the mage to be a mage.



I'm guessing that most people would go the other direction in fixing shapeshifting, which is improving the forms to be powerful on their own. The problem here is that you either make the forms weak imitations of the other classes, or you make them full substitutes for those classes, in which case you allow any mage, in 4 ability points, to make the other classes completely irrelevant. I don't think most people want that, which is why you have to find a way for shapeshifting to work in synergy with the other mage abilities rather than being a replacement for them.

[TheNecroFiend]

I think in the old thread they said that casting in animal form was not an option due to animations.

[Rustle_Wastaken]

Turambar29 wrote...

Rustle_Wastaken wrote...

Transforming into a giant spider is realistic, because it takes a long time? 

Benjamin's Law: first come game mechanics that work, then comes the lore to make those mechanics fit into the world.  Lore can be cleverly written to justify just about any game mechanic.  However, no amount of lore can take crap game mechanics, and make it fun.  There is nothing fun about watching your character wave his hands in the air for 4 years, all the while watching mobs beat him/her down, just so you can turn into a form that is vastly less powerful and has fewer options than regular caster form.  And just for you, I've tried watching it while thinking, "makes sense for my warden to wave them around like he just don't care, cuz I listen to hip-hop while I'm stuck in traffic, and what he's doing right now is clearly just as exciting".  Alas, the realism of knowing my warden has an iPod does not seem to improve the play experience for me.

"In Thedas, shapeshifters are supposed to be rare.  So it makes sense that every shapeshifter character I make dies quickly and without a fuss.  Its so realistic, its Darwinian!".  Might be true, but it doesn't help the game. Mechanics first, lore after.  Never argue for mechanics based on lore, because that never results in a better playing experience.  K?

One of the funniest posts I've seen- thanks for the witty reply!  I laughed so hard!

*blush*

I live to make people happy!  Tyvm for the compliment

[shree420]

My thoughts exactly. I love DA:O, and Bioware have a superb game here, but shapeshifter, for all its initial coolth, gets blown out of the water.



What's weirder was they had a great template for a super shapeshifting skill right there in the Fade sequence; I had great fun first Crushing Prisoning an enemy, Freezing another, then shifting to Golem and whacking them silly.



Although it might have been repetitious, and maybe a bit of a game-breaker to put Golem/Spirit forms, they could have made the beast forms much stronger, and added skills that play well with each other. They could also have gone for half-beast forms( which might freak people out though)



Another option would be not actual shapeshifting, but gaining the animal's qualities - a sort of possession that gave the corresponding bonuses. A Wolf form that gave bonuses to dexterity, a Bear form that gave immense strength etc.

[Nokturnal Lex]

Shapeshifting is just another example of this game being forced out the door way too early, but seriously whoever designed it to begin with should've noticed how much it sucked just by using it for like 1 or 2 levels, but it's like it wasn't even tested at all. Either that or they made it insanely overpowered to start, nerfed it to hell and then didn't test it at all.

[TheNecroFiend]

Yeah, thats one thing I don't get. How could shapeshifting as is actually get out the door. It's only useful function is the increased movement from swarm.

[Marvin TPA]

Just curious but has anyone built a character purely to shapeshift?

Was thinking about trying it out for a challenge. Pump str./ dex. / Wp. and treat all those fab spells as bonus stuff on top what would essentially be a warrior.

[Pimpskinny]

I too am disappointed in Shapeshifting, especially because I was sort-of looking forward to it as a person who likes playing druids and such.



Everyone has ideas - how about this one: Make the forms uber-useful - like bear with super strength and health, spider with area poison and web, whatever, but make it so the forms have a limited duration and a long cool down to cast them again.

[Edelwolf]

EvilIguana966 wrote...

This isn't D&D where spells have verbal and somatic components, so I see no reason why mages shouldn't be able to cast while in animal form. They still have a human (or elven) mind and that should allow them to channel the magic.

I was thinking the same thing. Allowing mages to cast in shifted form would solve the first problem of mage abilities being too useful to give up.

Just a few webs and poison spits can never make up for it. Even the weakest spell domains are better to have instead. It's a shame really because shifting could've been very cool to have.