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[unreadierLizard]

Now that I've finished my second playthrough of Origins and am starting my second DA2 playthrough, I've had time to ponder all the intracate workings of the Chantry and their relationships with the Circle. 

According to the Chantry, the reason that Thedas is messed up the way it is(darkspawn, blights, etc) is because of the Tevinter magisters deciding to become gods and go for a stroll in the Golden City, thus corrupting it and turning themselves into the first darkspawn. This we all know, or should know. 

According to the Chantry, Andraste cast the magisters down and said "magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him". A lot of Templars use this line to justify what the Chantry does(as does the Chantry itself), but I'd like to know what you all's opinion is on this phrase. 

That is if you take the story of the magisters and darkspawn seriously(as I tend to now, thanks to Corypheus in the Legacy DLC).  

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I'm partial to the "just recently cast off Tevinter shackles and wanted to have a big "f*ck you magisters" as a major part of their doctrine." theory.

[unreadierLizard]

Hah - that does make sense. It's just something to ponder at least in my mind, anyway.

The fact that the Tevinter magisters were some royally screwed up people would lead one to possibly believe that one verse in the Chant condemned mages for thousands of years to something akin to servitude, or that it was a way to ensure that no mages would ever gain power again and do something else that would lead to a world-changing conflict

(Well, Tevinter is now ruled by mages -again- because apparently the Templars there are so weak that they kiss the butt of the Imperial Chantry)

[Iakus]

 My interpretation is that magic is like any other strength, it should be used for the betterment of others, not to impose your will on them.  A sharp sword, a quick mind, a smooth tongue, all can be used to either help or harm others.  So can the ability to rewrite the laws of physics.  It's just a flashier means.  Magic isn't inherently good or evil, neither blessing nor taint.  It's in how the mage chooses to use it

Malcolm Hawke put it best "My magic will serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base"

[TEWR]

For the betterment of society in applications throughout the land, but also that which serves the best interests of the mage and not that which is most base.

Basically, Malcolm Hawke's interpetation coupled with my own that consists of -- as an example -- Spirit Healers being employed in villages and cities as doctors.

[dragonflight288]

Or mages using destructive spells in the army, in service to the crown of whatever country they live in.

And, I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but the templars didn't exist at the time of Andraste. You'll never find the word 'templar' in the Chant because the order wasn't around at the time Andraste led an army against the Magisters (which makes me wonder how they fought the magic. Most likely, with magic.)

There is a book in Orzammar that suggests that Andraste was a mage herself, and not the Maker's chosen bride, as the Chantry teaches. IF that's true, then either the Chantry is hiding the truth, or doesn't know about it. Reading the codex on the history of the Chantry, you'll learn that they were only one of many Andrastian cults after her death, and that this one was chosen by an Orlesian warlord who wanted to be emperor, and together they conquered all the neighboring city-states, creating Orlais, then proceeded to conquer everyone else, spreading the Chant to almost all the surface.

While Orlais lost its influence in most of the countries, the Chantry itself, did not. And the Chantry is so tied up with Orlais (the Divine named the Dragon Age, not only because a High Dragon appeared, but also to support the Orlesian King (or the Usurper King) in Ferelden in his battle against Loghain as his crest was a dragon. Only....he lost.

I'm just cynical of anything to do with the chantry.

[Plaintiff]

That magic, ideally, is a tool for the betterment of mankind.

[unreadierLizard]

I'm aware there weren't any templars, but it seems they and the Chantry justify their entire treatment of mages based on that one verse from the Chant.

[EricHVela]

Taken word-for-word, I focus on the "never to rule over him" part.

To me, that says that magic is not meant to control others.

[karushna5]

I always take it as Mages should not rule, except other mages. No governors, no Viscounts, no black divine. Power corrupts, and that much power in a ruler for a generation might work but long haul no.

[Gervaise]

The quotation continues: "Foul and corrupt are those who have taken his gift and used it against his children."
Note please, Andraste calls magic a gift of the Maker. I take her words to mean that she understood the Maker had given mages their gift for the betterment of their fellows, to help and aid them against any evils that beset them whether illness or enemies. However, the Magisters regarded that their gift made them superior to everyone else and thus entitled to rule over them - might is right so to speak - and treat them as mere chattels to use and abuse as they saw fit. This is what Andraste condemned.

It is ironic that those who came after Andraste used her words to condemn all mages, not just power crazed mage lords, and treat them with as much disdain as the Magisters once had for non mages. Virtually everything that the Chantry and Templars claim they are entitled to do by "Divine Right" is nothing of the sort. And to call mages' gift of magic a curse flies in direct contradiction of the Chant of Light and is actually an insult to the Maker. The accursed ones are those who misuse their magic to hurt and oppress others but also anyone else who harms others without cause.

At the end, if Sebastian is with us when we defend the mages, my Hawke says to him that Andraste would probably be there lighting torches and crying freedom along with the rest of us. I have no problem at all with the Chant of Light and am quite happy to believe in its moral code. But I do not believe there is any justification in it for the mistreatment of mages generally or denying them a place in society.

[dragonflight288]

Well said Gervaise.

[Gamer Ftw]

I think the current system is a huge insult to Andraste.
They are not "serving man" being locked away.
Mages could do so much good for Thedas.
They could heal, protect people whatever...
Not that I think they shouldn't be watched over maybe just not by zealots with swords.

[brushyourteeth]

Gervaise wrote...

The quotation continues: "Foul and corrupt are those who have taken his gift and used it against his children."
Note please, Andraste calls magic a gift of the Maker. I take her words to mean that she understood the Maker had given mages their gift for the betterment of their fellows, to help and aid them against any evils that beset them whether illness or enemies. However, the Magisters regarded that their gift made them superior to everyone else and thus entitled to rule over them - might is right so to speak - and treat them as mere chattels to use and abuse as they saw fit. This is what Andraste condemned.

It is ironic that those who came after Andraste used her words to condemn all mages, not just power crazed mage lords, and treat them with as much disdain as the Magisters once had for non mages. Virtually everything that the Chantry and Templars claim they are entitled to do by "Divine Right" is nothing of the sort. And to call mages' gift of magic a curse flies in direct contradiction of the Chant of Light and is actually an insult to the Maker. The accursed ones are those who misuse their magic to hurt and oppress others but also anyone else who harms others without cause.

At the end, if Sebastian is with us when we defend the mages, my Hawke says to him that Andraste would probably be there lighting torches and crying freedom along with the rest of us. I have no problem at all with the Chant of Light and am quite happy to believe in its moral code. But I do not believe there is any justification in it for the mistreatment of mages generally or denying them a place in society.

Brilliant!

[LolaLei]

I'd love it if we discovered that Andraste was actually a Mage.

[brushyourteeth]

LolaLei wrote...

I'd love it if we discovered that Andraste was actually a Mage.

I'm kind of hoping they just made it canonically possible so we could travel back and play as her in a future DA game without any class restrictions.

[Wulfram]

LolaLei wrote...

I'd love it if we discovered that Andraste was actually a Mage.

I think that would be trite.

[brushyourteeth]

Wulfram wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I'd love it if we discovered that Andraste was actually a Mage.

I think that would be trite.

If by "trite" you actually mean "fascinating" then I completely agree.

[dragonflight288]

If you're a male, you play Mafarath, or if you're female you play Andraste.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

brushyourteeth wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I'd love it if we discovered that Andraste was actually a Mage.

I'm kind of hoping they just made it canonically possible so we could travel back and play as her in a future DA game without any class restrictions.

It is canonically possible: I don't think Andraste is mentioned as doing anything that contradicts any hard-and-fast limits set on mage abilities. (As opposed to Morrigan, Velanna, or Merril.) In fact, there is already at least one gift for Wynne that is a book that mentions this possibility. (Edit: sorry, missed the earlier mention.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 23 juin 2012 - 01:35 .

[unreadierLizard]

If Andraste was a mage that would be either hilariously ironic or destructive to the Chantry.

[Cantina]

I have always suspected Andraste to be a mage.



I believe all Andraste was trying to say is that magic is a tool to help all those within Thedas and it should not be a means to proclaim superiority over those who have no magic. There is no reason why Mages should not be allowed to live as free as other men.

The Chantry twisted her words around and used it as a form of mind control. Funny how Andraste spent so much time freeing people and yet the Chantry turns around and locks Mages up. Sounds to me The Chantry is not as religious nor as compassionate as they claim to be.

[SoaringHawk218]

PraetorianNova wrote...

If Andraste was a mage that would be either hilariously ironic or destructive to the Chantry.

This is incredably unlikely to happen, but it would be hilarious if, somehow, Andraste got revived by the Chantry to try and put a stop to the war, and they discovered she was a mage. It won't happen, but just thinking about the looks on their faces...

On topic, I agree with most of the posts in that the phrase was orignially supposed to mean that mages were to help people with magic rather than use it to rule them, and that meaning was later changed by mage haters to justify enslaving them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

SoaringHawk218 wrote...


On topic, I agree with most of the posts in that the phrase was orignially supposed to mean that mages were to help people with magic rather than use it to rule them, and that meaning was later changed by mage haters to justify enslaving them.

It might have been either, really. She was fighting a war with the Tevinter Magocrats at the time. The tamer meaning is undeniably the more constructive one, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was the intended one. Especially if, rather than being a mage or the personal favorite of a semi-benevolent (when he actually cares) deity, she was just a normal warlord who won a war due to a whole bunch of totally random coincidences which she used for PR. (This interpretation is no more or less valid than the other ones, I suppose, but if we ever find proof of one of them rather than it just being a mystery, I hope she's a mage.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 23 juin 2012 - 01:05 .

[dragonflight288]

But at the same time, there were no templars at the time of Andraste, so magic had to have been the weapon of choice to fight mages.