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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But at the same time, there were no templars at the time of Andraste, so magic had to have been the weapon of choice to fight mages.

Okay, point taken. Either the Maker's favor (which doesn't really seem to be the way the setting works) or she's a mage (which Bioware would totally do.)

[dragonflight288]

Or people saw her perform powerful magics, but they hated magic so much but loved her so much that she couldn't possibly be a mage and had to be chosen by the Maker. Heck, she may even have played up the part a bit to get recruits and raise moral, both of which are important for any army.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or people saw her perform powerful magics, but they hated magic so much but loved her so much that she couldn't possibly be a mage and had to be chosen by the Maker. Heck, she may even have played up the part a bit to get recruits and raise moral, both of which are important for any army.

I was going to mention that her contemporaries might have known, and it's the Chantry who spun it, but they don't seem to mention her magic as being magic when you meet them in the Temple. (But then again, given the way magic works in this setting, I don't think those are the real people anyway. So they might not mention that she was a mage because the person looking for the ashes doesn't expect them to. Sort of like how Trian mentions that he's an image from the Dwarf Noble's heart, for instance.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 23 juin 2012 - 02:42 .

[dragonflight288]

Etheral Writer Redux once posted a list of evidences that support Andraste being a mage, and I don't have the image so I can't post it, but in the temple near Haven, a temple devoted to Andraste, the statues of her have fire to light the rooms. And the fire is in a very peculiar location. Her hands, or more accurately, the palm of her hands as if she were holding a fireball like a mage. And that temple was built by those who knew her personally.

[dragonflight288]

That's true. And if you take Oghren with you, he outright states that the mountain is chalk full of lyrium, stronger than he's ever felt in the mountain. He raises the question on whether the ashes were magical, or the mountain and if the mountain influenced the ashes themselves.

[Raydiva]

"Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him."

Mages are not meant to use their power to rule, but to help. If this was followed, life could be so much better for everyone. Shields to defend against invaders and/or bad weather. Magic based healing. Heating without fires which can cause pollution. Call upon water and/or rain in times in times of drought. The list goes on. But thanks to the Chantry, this great resource is left rotting in towers.

[dragonflight288]

Fires cause pollution? Umm, mages can create fire without flint or tinder, but they don't create the heat.

[Ausstig]

PraetorianNova wrote...

If Andraste was a mage that would be either hilariously ironic or destructive to the Chantry.

No more then anti-sematic Christians, Jeaus was Jew after all. 

[Samzo77]

Andraste carried a sword, according to the statues depicting her. If DA2 taught us anything, it's that mages can't use swords. So she couldn't be a Mage.
Seriously though, I never have thought she was a Mage, but never saw her as anti-Mage. Most lines in the chant that have negative connotation towards magic refer to dark magic, blood magic, or some form of domination. Ultimately, she said these words because she knew the Imperium to be self serving, and using their magic to dominate others. So she rallied others behind this phrase, bringing them to her cause to overthrow their oppressors.

[dragonflight288]

But the statues depicting her in the temple in Haven showed her clearly holding a fireball as if she were a mage. And that temple wasn't built by the Chantry to symbolize her 100 years after her death. It was built by those who knew her personally.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Not to mention that mages can use swords just fine in DAO. Just because they don't in DA2 doesn't mean that they can't, and we have previous evidence to show that they can.

Edit: Wait, was that sarcasm? Hard to tell when you do it right...

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 juin 2012 - 10:40 .

[Emzamination]

Cantina wrote...

I have always suspected Andraste to be a mage.



I believe all Andraste was trying to say is that magic is a tool to help all those within Thedas and it should not be a means to proclaim superiority over those who have no magic. There is no reason why Mages should not be allowed to live as free as other men.

The Chantry twisted her words around and used it as a form of mind control. Funny how Andraste spent so much time freeing people and yet the Chantry turns around and locks Mages up. Sounds to me The Chantry is not as religious nor as compassionate as they claim to be.

That's silly, Andraste was not a mage enslaved by mages.Why would Andraste need to call on the maker for help and power if she had her own?

O/T: I believe it means mages are to be used to advanced society as a whole but need to be kept under close watch to prevent the rise of another imperium.Just look at the tevinter chantry, in the beginning templars were watching over those tevinter mages to make sure they used their magic responsibly and didn't resort to blood magic but they were a little lax and gave the mages some room to breathe and now the mages are commanding them and doing blood magic and sacrifices in the street as freely as they please.They've even implemented a "BLACK" divine who also happens to be a magister.

Magic in and of itself is ok but its wielders must be kept on a very tight qunari leash.

[Emzamination]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But the statues depicting her in the temple in Haven showed her clearly holding a fireball as if she were a mage. And that temple wasn't built by the Chantry to symbolize her 100 years after her death. It was built by those who knew her personally.

The statue was a torch

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Emzamination wrote...

Cantina wrote...

I have always suspected Andraste to be a mage.



I believe all Andraste was trying to say is that magic is a tool to help all those within Thedas and it should not be a means to proclaim superiority over those who have no magic. There is no reason why Mages should not be allowed to live as free as other men.

The Chantry twisted her words around and used it as a form of mind control. Funny how Andraste spent so much time freeing people and yet the Chantry turns around and locks Mages up. Sounds to me The Chantry is not as religious nor as compassionate as they claim to be.

That's silly, Andraste was not a mage enslaved by mages.Why would Andraste need to call on the maker for help and power if she had her own?

If you'd read the posts above, you would know that the point of this speculation is that she might not have called on the Maker for help and power at all.

[Emzamination]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

If you'd read the posts above, you would know that the point of this speculation is that she might not have called on the Maker for help and power at all.

It's fact the maker set the harvest of the tevinter imperium on fire to starve the imperium's soldiers then flooded minrathos to cleanse it, this is learned in the sacred temple.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Emzamination wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

If you'd read the posts above, you would know that the point of this speculation is that she might not have called on the Maker for help and power at all.

It's fact the maker set the harvest of the tevinter imperium on fire to starve the imperium's soldiers then flooded minrathos to cleanse it, this is learned in the sacred temple.

That is never established as fact. That's exactly what we're discussing, that there is an alternative explanation for both Andraste's miracles and the Temple itself. (Or, if we're going by that second miracle, it seems like an alternative explanation might be "Willy toiled for many a day to perfect the curious mechanisms that flooded an entire city.")

[Emzamination]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

If you'd read the posts above, you would know that the point of this speculation is that she might not have called on the Maker for help and power at all.

It's fact the maker set the harvest of the tevinter imperium on fire to starve the imperium's soldiers then flooded minrathos to cleanse it, this is learned in the sacred temple.

That is never established as fact. That's exactly what we're discussing, that there is an alternative explanation for both Andraste's miracles and the Temple itself. (Or, if we're going by that second miracle, it seems like an alternative explanation might be "Willy toiled for many a day to perfect the curious mechanisms that flooded an entire city.")

Tis most definitely fact as the words came from the spirit of one of Andraste's followers that had been in the war.Now you're picking at straws, thedas isn't techonologically advanced enough in the current age to construct weapons of mass destruction, only a mage could be capable of willing a flood into existence and no normal mage in all of thedas has that level of power.I say normal because the tevinter magisters sunk arlathan via blood magic and while I do not doubt andraste had her own mage allys, they would not of used blood magic.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Emzamination wrote...


Tis most definitely fact as the words came from the spirit of one of Andraste's followers that had been in the war.Now you're picking at straws, thedas isn't techonologically advanced enough in the current age to construct weapons of mass destruction, only a mage could be capable of willing a flood into existence and no normal mage in all of thedas has that level of power. I say normal because the tevinter magisters sunk arlathan via blood magic and while I do not doubt andraste had her own mage allys, they would not of used blood magic.

Well, that depends on Minrathous itself. If there was, say, a dam or an aqueduct near the city, blowing it up wouldn't be too much of a stretch. And judging by the map of the Imperium on wikia, it's located at a point where it isn't inconcievable for either to be placed. The only large body of water nearby is probably too salty to drink, but it's near enough a mountain range that either a dam lake or an aqueduct might be concievable options.

And is it really established that those spirits are the real deal? The Gauntlet spirit that appears after the riddles bit almost certainly isn't: heck, with some origins that person might not have even died yet. So the Gauntlet can create simulations of people. Can it draw back dead spirits? That is more uncertain: such magic doesn't seem to exist in this setting. And before you answer that it's not magic, Oghren does volunteer that there is an incredible amount of lyrium present in the mountain. (Which was posted above, but I'm skeptical you read any of that. Does that point prove the Gauntlet is magic? And if it did, would that prove Andraste is a mage? No to both, but you're the one arguing absolute proofs.)

As for blood magic being off limits to Andraste's companions... why? That only seems to have come up after the Chantry was established, when a Chantry official (I think the ranking Divine) was looking for an easy answer to the question "what sort of magic is forbidden?" That official determined that mind control and powering spells with another person's blood are both illegal, which doesn't technically preclude blood magic, but which that official pretended did.

Edit: For that matter, we're never given a hard and fast upper limit on what a mage is capable of, with or without blood magic. Or I should say we're given several, but none of them would preclude what I'm suggesting. Especially since Minrathous is sitting on the ocean.


Edit2: Or now that I think about it, why would Andraste need to get involved at all? Cities on the ocean might at any point get hit by a huge wave. It doesn't happen often, but it happens.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 juin 2012 - 11:52 .

[dragonflight288]

The statue was a torch

Does this look like a torch?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The statue was a torch

Does this look like a torch?

I think her point was that the statue was meant to provide light. To be fair, I don't see how that argument addresses the point you raised.

[dragonflight288]

I suppose since the statue was built by those who knew her personally, that is a very curious place to put the light itself. Why, it almost looks like she's holding a fireball like any mage would. Is it proof she was a mage? No, but it is compelling evidence that she wasn't mundane like say....Mafarath or Alistair.

Or it may be aesthetic. But as it was built by those who knew her personally, I do question WHY they would put the flame there and not say, on a torch or in a bowl or something. Why the palm of her hand?

[Emzamination]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Well, that depends on Minrathrous itself. If there was, say, a dam or an aqueduct near the city, blowing it up wouldn't be too much of a stretch. And judging by the map of the Imperium on wikia, it's located at a point where it isn't inconcievable for either to be placed. The only large body of water nearby is probably sal****er, (Edit: It censored that?!) but it's near enough a mountain range that either a dam lake or an aqueduct might be concievable options.

And is it really established that those spirits are the real deal? The Gauntlet spirit that appears after the riddles bit almost certainly isn't: heck, with some origins that person might not have even died yet. So the Gauntlet can create simulations of people. Can it draw back dead spirits? That is more uncertain: such magic doesn't seem to exist in this setting. And before you answer that it's not magic, Oghren does volunteer that there is an incredible amount of lyrium present in the mountain. (Which was posted above, but I'm skeptical you read any of that. Does that point prove she was a mage? No, but you're the one arguing absolute proofs.)

As for blood magic being off limits to Andraste's companions... why? That only seems to have come up after the Chantry was established, when a Chantry official (I think the ranking Divine) was looking for an easy answer to the question "what sort of magic is forbidden?" That official determined that mind control and powering spells with another person's blood are both illegal, which doesn't technically preclude blood magic, but which that official pretended did.

People in thedas still go to the bathroom in chamber pots,gather their water from wells and heat their water in the sun for baths which means they lack any form of sewage system or water system.Minrathous is surrounded by a massive body of water on its North,east and west side, I'm not saying dams actually exist in the time period but what reason would they have to build one? and how could they build one so massive as to surround the land and impound all that water?

If you're suggesting the spirits are hallucinations, you're wrong as they physically attack you and the spirit you mention gives you a physical item.The spirits are real and yet not real, just as the origin's spirit you meet is a distant memory of your past that knows everything about you, so too are the other spirits in the room bound to andrastes ashes as distant memories of her past.The Guardian is a spirit of a sort as well but it made a pact with the maker and it is bound to the divinity of the ashes as a source of immortality.Lyrium is not just a raw resource mined by the dwarves to make mana potion, lyrium is the blood of the maker and sings to his first children.It makes complete since that the makers veins would be flowing all through the temple of his bride but that in no way says magic was involved as lyrium is only a conductor.The fact that oghren mention it's the purest he's ever sinced is also a point of interest.

Andraste was trying to overthrow an evil empire dedicated to the worship of the old gods and sacrificing slaves for their blood rituals.She did not free the elves and adopt the enemie's tactics by consorting with demons that wish to rule over man, again grasping at straws.

[Emzamination]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The statue was a torch

Does this look like a torch?

Most definitely, it doesn't to you?

[Fallstar]

"Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him."
Does not read:
"Mages exist to serve man, and never to rule over him."

And here I thought Chantry Priests were supposed to be vaguely literate.

My personal interpretation of that line is that men should not gain positions of power over other men because they are mages. They should use their magic for the good of man, rather than for personal ambition.

That does not mean that mages cannot become rulers through the normal process just because they are mages. If someone is a good ruler, then they can rule well regardless of their magic. And they should use their magic to serve man, for example using their magic to heal and to protect the lands during a blight. That does not mean that you can order the mages around. You do not keep the mages shacked up in a tower somewhere and call on them to serve you when required. You ask them to use their magic to help you. Magic is a tool to help mankind, the mages aren't themselves the tool. A point the Chantry has conveniently missed.

That's my interpretation anyhow. On a side note, I also think Andraste was a mage. A very powerful mage no doubt, but just a made nonetheless.

Emzamination wrote...

Most definitely, it doesn't to you?

 

Torches have handles. Flames suspended above one's palm, generally indicate that you are somehow controlling said flames. Now if only there was a force in Thedas that let you control fire.. 

Modifié par DuskWarden, 26 juin 2012 - 12:05 .

[Cantina]

Well lets not forget the statue shows her wear robes, like a mage.