128 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The statue was a torch

Does this look like a torch?

Most definitely, it doesn't to you?

Oh it does to me as well. It simply has the most curious design for a torch. Unlike the statues of Andraste built by the Chantry (such as the ones in Lothering or Redcliff) where the flame is at the base of the statue to symbolize her being burned at the stake or her holding a sword, the ones built by those who knew her personally have her in mages robes and holding a fireball to be the torch.

Curious.

The way I see things, as also explained by Sherlock Holmes played by Robert Downey Jr., it's ultimately a huge mistake to form theories before we have all the data and facts. Inevitably we will twist the facts to match our theories instead of twisting our theories to match the facts.

That's why we need to throw everything on the table, even the evidence that goes against what we believe happened, see what sticks and what works, and what doesn't. Who knows, maybe in DA3 it will be revealed Andraste was a mage or simply a powerful warlord who had a string of coincidences help her. Or she may be blessed by the Maker. We can't ignore any of these theories, but there is more than enough evidence to cast reasonable doubt on the Chantry's claim.

[Emzamination]

DuskWarden wrote...

Torches have handles. Flames suspended above one's palm, generally indicate that you are somehow controlling said flames. Now if only there was a force in Thedas that let you control fire.. 

and the hand can't act as a brazier because it's in the shape of a hand? A fire ball spell requires lyrium and will to power, both of which the statue has none.It could be magical fire but lets not forget the conversation in origins with the brother in lothering about andraste's holy flame, "A flame is kept in every temple in rememberance". I would accept it as lighting the path for pilgrims to the maker or having some signifigance to her burning before it being a display of andraste's pyromantic power.

[Emzamination]

Cantina wrote...


Well lets not forget the statue shows her wear robes, like a mage.

The divine,clerics,chantry sisters and everyone else of the holy order wear intricate robes.Even the peasants wear robes.

[Emzamination]

dragonflight288 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The statue was a torch

Does this look like a torch?

Most definitely, it doesn't to you?

Oh it does to me as well. It simply has the most curious design for a torch. Unlike the statues of Andraste built by the Chantry (such as the ones in Lothering or Redcliff) where the flame is at the base of the statue to symbolize her being burned at the stake or her holding a sword, the ones built by those who knew her personally have her in mages robes and holding a fireball to be the torch.

Curious.

The way I see things, as also explained by Sherlock Holmes played by Robert Downey Jr., it's ultimately a huge mistake to form theories before we have all the data and facts. Inevitably we will twist the facts to match our theories instead of twisting our theories to match the facts.

That's why we need to throw everything on the table, even the evidence that goes against what we believe happened, see what sticks and what works, and what doesn't. Who knows, maybe in DA3 it will be revealed Andraste was a mage or simply a powerful warlord who had a string of coincidences help her. Or she may be blessed by the Maker. We can't ignore any of these theories, but there is more than enough evidence to cast reasonable doubt on the Chantry's claim.

The haven chantry predates every other chantry because it is the tomb of andraste so the statue may be of ancient design while the ones in lothering and redcliffe are modernized.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Emzamination wrote...

People in thedas still go to the bathroom in chamber pots,gather their water from wells and heat their water in the sun for baths which means they lack any form of sewage system or water system.Minrathous is surrounded by a massive body of water on its North,east and west side, I'm not saying dams actually exist in the time period but what reason would they have to build one? and how could they build one so massive as to surround the land and impound all that water?

People in the parts of Thedas we visit do all these things that demonstrate a lack of a sewage or water system. There are aqueducts in Par Vollen, why not in Tevinter? As for why... did you even read my post? To get fresh water: they're on the ocean. As to how... magic? Or maybe just advanced engineering? They built Ostagar, after all. And the Imperial Highway, and the Tower at Kinloch Hold. They've proven they know what they're doing, whether their building skills are magical or mundane. If they can build those things, why not a dam?

If you're suggesting the spirits are hallucinations, you're wrong as they physically attack you and the spirit you mention gives you a physical item.The spirits are real and yet not real, just as the origin's spirit you meet is a distant memory of your past that knows everything about you, so too are the other spirits in the room bound to andrastes ashes as distant memories of her past.The Guardian is a spirit of a sort as well but it made a pact with the maker and it is bound to the divinity of the ashes as a source of immortality.Lyrium is not just a raw resource mined by the dwarves to make mana potion, lyrium is the blood of the maker and sings to his first children.It makes complete since that the makers veins would be flowing all through the temple of his bride but that in no way says magic was involved as lyrium is only a conductor.The fact that oghren mention it's the purest he's ever sinced is also a point of interest.

I'm not really sure how to argue with this, because I'm unsure what you're arguing.

The lyrium is only a conductor thing is pretty shaky though, if you're saying its nonmagical. People with absolutely no ability to work magic can use lyrium to create magical items. Some of these magical items are things that even mages cannot replicate. In fact, the lyrium is speculated to have been the reason they can't work magic: the idea is it mutated them over centuries to the point where they can't use magic, are heavily resistant to it, and are able to sense lyrium in the first place. Not to mention that one of the crafting resources in DA:O is said to have been reshaped by proximity to lyrium, and become magical that way. So the lyrium can do weird things. As for the lyrium-as-a-divine-substance thing, that's just the Chantry's spin. They can offer no evidence, to the best of my knowledge.

As to the spirits themselves. Hallucinations? No, that's that pretty obviously wrong. Real and not real? A better description. That doesn't mean that the people in the riddle room are the actual people, and if they aren't, can their words really be trusted?

Andraste was trying to overthrow an evil empire dedicated to the worship of the old gods and sacrificing slaves for their blood rituals.She did not free the elves and adopt the enemie's tactics by consorting with demons that wish to rule over man, again grasping at straws.

The lore is out on whether demons are strictly neccesary to perfom blood magic. Dragon Age: Origins outright states that they are, or at least for non-taint-fueled blood magic. Dragon Age II heavily implies that they aren't. It'd be nice to have some consistency there, am I right?

[Fallstar]

Emzamination wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Torches have handles. Flames suspended above one's palm, generally indicate that you are somehow controlling said flames. Now if only there was a force in Thedas that let you control fire.. 

and the hand can't act as a brazier because it's in the shape of a hand? A fire ball spell requires lyrium and will to power, both of which the statue has none.It could be magical fire but lets not forget the conversation in origins with the brother in lothering about andraste's holy flame, "A flame is kept in every temple in rememberance". I would accept it as lighting the path for pilgrims to the maker or having some signifigance to her burning before it being a display of andraste's pyromantic power.

The point is when you make a statue of someone, you try to represent how the were in life. So they give the statue of Andraste these flames to represent her use of primal magic in life.

Or it could just be something like she represents light for humanity like a torch. There's no way for us to know.

When we start analysing statues, that's a sure sign we need something new @devs.

[Fallstar]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The lore is out on whether demons are strictly neccesary to perfom blood magic. Dragon Age: Origins outright states that they are, or at least for non-taint-fueled blood magic. Dragon Age II heavily implies that they aren't. It'd be nice to have some consistency there, am I right?

To the contrary, DA2 implies more that demons are required to learn blood magic, where it suggests that the Forgotten Ones first taught the Tevinter magisters blood magic. In DAO, we have multiple potential sources:

•            
  
•  We can learn it from a demon as mages ourselves.
• We can learn it from a book in Awakening.
• Codex Entries state that the Old God Dumat was in fact the being that first taught Tevinter mages blood magic.
• If the Warden is not yet a blood mage, the Warden assumes the Baroness can teach him blood magic before we are given any information that she is in fact a pride demon. So it seems that our Warden mages think blood mages can teach blood magic.

So there's plenty of conflicting evidence in Origins on how you learn blood magic. As for actually using blood magic, the codex entry in origins states that blood magic refers to the fact that "magic of this type uses life, specifically in the form of blood, instead of mana." So no, DAO lore does not outright state that demons are required to learn or use blood magic. Although blood magic can be used to tear the veil completely and summon demons through, that is just one use of it. There are plenty of other uses that do no necessitate the summoning of demons.

**** formatting.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 26 juin 2012 - 12:48 .

[MisterJB]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
The lore is out on whether demons are strictly neccesary to perfom blood magic. Dragon Age: Origins outright states that they are, or at least for non-taint-fueled blood magic. Dragon Age II heavily implies that they aren't. It'd be nice to have some consistency there, am I right?

Heavily implies? I remember Anders telling Fenris that in order to perform Blood Magic, you have to look a Demon in the eye and accept its offer.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MisterJB wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
The lore is out on whether demons are strictly neccesary to perfom blood magic. Dragon Age: Origins outright states that they are, or at least for non-taint-fueled blood magic. Dragon Age II heavily implies that they aren't. It'd be nice to have some consistency there, am I right?

Heavily implies? I remember Anders telling Fenris that in order to perform Blood Magic, you have to look a Demon in the eye and accept its offer.

... oh great, more inconsistency. What I meant, though, is that the specialization description for Blood Mage in DA2 states that some people consider blood magic to be the only kind that is truly free, in that it doesn't require drawing power from the Fade, but rather from this world. So by extension that means it doesn't require a demon. Meanwhile, in Dragon Age: Origins, or more specifically Warden's Keep, I think Avernus outright states that demons are required to perfrom blood magic. That's what I was referring to.

[Emzamination]

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

[quote]People in the parts of Thedas we visit do all these things that demonstrate a lack of a sewage or water system. There are aqueducts in Par Vollen, why not in Tevinter? As for why... did you even read my post? To get fresh water: they're on the ocean. As to how... magic? Or maybe just advanced engineering? They built Ostagar, after all. And the Imperial Highway, and the Tower at Kinloch Hold. They've proven they know what they're doing, whether their building skills are magical or mundane. If they can build those things, why not a dam?[/quote]

Tevinter is suppose to resemble Ancient rome so they may have aqueducts as well as the qunari as for their purpose I won't comment because Aqueducts are suppose to provide water for latrines,baths as well as clear waste and we've seen no evidence of these things.Mages don't need any kind of technological engineering to get clean water, they have magic, that thing their empire was built on.Besides there is no mention or evidence of any massive structure ever having been there.A dam of that magnitude , even if it burst would not just disappear without a trace of its existence.Ostagar was an excellent defensive fortress of 'Dwarven make'.While it's no technological marval, It shows exquisite craftsmanship but then again the dwarves built a whole underground kingdom out of stone.The highway is impressive in the same likeness as the great wall of china, it's just very long and while a tower can hold great craftsmanship, it is not considered an advancement in technology.

[quote]
I'm not really sure how to argue with this, because I'm unsure what you're arguing.

The lyrium is only a conductor thing is pretty shaky though, if you're saying its nonmagical. People with absolutely no ability to work magic can use lyrium to create magical items. Some of these magical items are things that even mages cannot replicate. In fact, the lyrium is speculated to have been the reason they can't work magic: the idea is it mutated them over centuries to the point where they can't use magic, are heavily resistant to it, and are able to sense lyrium in the first place. Not to mention that one of the crafting resources in DA:O is said to have been reshaped by proximity to lyrium, and become magical that way. So the lyrium can do weird things. As for the lyrium-as-a-divine-substance thing, that's just the Chantry's spin. They can offer no evidence, to the best of my knowledge.

As to the spirits themselves. Hallucinations? No, that's that pretty obviously wrong. Real and not real? A better description. That doesn't mean that the people in the riddle room are the actual people, and if they aren't, can their words really be trusted?
[/quote]

No, I'm not saying the lyrium is not magical.The lyrium is but a conductor for enchantment and spells in that it needs someone to activate/power it, lyrium in the temple was in the walls.Lyrium is lethal to all but spirits so it doesn't surprise me that after many centuries the dwarves would form a resistance to the hostility of their enviorment in the same way that the turians developed metalic exoskeletons in mass effect to combat the radiation of their planet.Everything adapts to its enviorment in time.What crafting resource?The lyrium sings a song to spirits as justice mentions in awakening,it gave meredith god like powers to give life to inanimate objects. That is all the evidence we need to know it is far more than a raw resource.

The spirits of the gauntlet are memorys of andraste pulled from her ashes, of course they can be trusted.They are not the actual spirit of said person but the essence.Macfereth in the gauntlet states that he betrayed Andraste over jealousy, she did not know that while she burned at the stake.The disciple harvard who carried her ashes up the mountain was mortally wounded by an imperium sword while he watched her burn but instead of dieing the ashes from the fire healed him, far away from the temple's lyrium veins, she knew nothing of this.

[quote]The lore is out on whether demons are strictly neccesary to perfom blood magic. Dragon Age: Origins outright states that they are, or at least for non-taint-fueled blood magic. Dragon Age II heavily implies that they aren't. It'd be nice to have some consistency there, am I right?
[/quote]

No it's consistent, it says demons taught blood magic to mages in origins and anders says "You have to look a demon in the eye and accept its offer to learn blood magic" in da2.

[Emzamination]

DuskWarden wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Torches have handles. Flames suspended above one's palm, generally indicate that you are somehow controlling said flames. Now if only there was a force in Thedas that let you control fire.. 

and the hand can't act as a brazier because it's in the shape of a hand? A fire ball spell requires lyrium and will to power, both of which the statue has none.It could be magical fire but lets not forget the conversation in origins with the brother in lothering about andraste's holy flame, "A flame is kept in every temple in rememberance". I would accept it as lighting the path for pilgrims to the maker or having some signifigance to her burning before it being a display of andraste's pyromantic power.

The point is when you make a statue of someone, you try to represent how the were in life. So they give the statue of Andraste these flames to represent her use of primal magic in life.

Or it could just be something like she represents light for humanity like a torch. There's no way for us to know.

When we start analysing statues, that's a sure sign we need something new @devs.

Lol too true 

[Emzamination]

DuskWarden wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The lore is out on whether demons are strictly neccesary to perfom blood magic. Dragon Age: Origins outright states that they are, or at least for non-taint-fueled blood magic. Dragon Age II heavily implies that they aren't. It'd be nice to have some consistency there, am I right?

To the contrary, DA2 implies more that demons are required to learn blood magic, where it suggests that the Forgotten Ones first taught the Tevinter magisters blood magic. In DAO, we have multiple potential sources:

•            
  
  
•  We can learn it from a demon as mages ourselves.
• We can learn it from a book in Awakening.
• Codex Entries state that the Old God Dumat was in fact the being that first taught Tevinter mages blood magic.
• If the Warden is not yet a blood mage, the Warden assumes the Baroness can teach him blood magic before we are given any information that she is in fact a pride demon. So it seems that our Warden mages think blood mages can teach blood magic.

So there's plenty of conflicting evidence in Origins on how you learn blood magic. As for actually using blood magic, the codex entry in origins states that blood magic refers to the fact that "magic of this type uses life, specifically in the form of blood, instead of mana." So no, DAO lore does not outright state that demons are required to learn or use blood magic. Although blood magic can be used to tear the veil completely and summon demons through, that is just one use of it. There are plenty of other uses that do no necessitate the summoning of demons.

**** formatting.

Actually the blood mage specilization in origins states it originally comes from demons and avernus acknowleges this as well which is why he is trying to use the taint to combat demons.

[Fallstar]

Emzamination wrote...
Actually the blood mage specilization in origins states it originally comes from demons and avernus acknowleges this as well which is why he is trying to use the taint to combat demons.

http://dragonage.wik...agon_of_Silence  

There are sources that suggest demons originally taught humans blood magic, but there is a lot more conflict about that suggestion in Origins.

[Emzamination]

DuskWarden wrote...

Emzamination wrote...
Actually the blood mage specilization in origins states it originally comes from demons and avernus acknowleges this as well which is why he is trying to use the taint to combat demons.

http://dragonage.wik...agon_of_Silence  

There are sources that suggest demons originally taught humans blood magic, but there is a lot more conflict about that suggestion in Origins.

No offence to the chantry but their opinion is biased, they would say the old gods killed andraste if they could get away with it.I don't support the old gods in any way but I'm not blind to bias either.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Emzamination wrote...

People in the parts of Thedas we visit do all these things that demonstrate a lack of a sewage or water system. There are aqueducts in Par Vollen, why not in Tevinter? As for why... did you even read my post? To get fresh water: they're on the ocean. As to how... magic? Or maybe just advanced engineering? They built Ostagar, after all. And the Imperial Highway, and the Tower at Kinloch Hold. They've proven they know what they're doing, whether their building skills are magical or mundane. If they can build those things, why not a dam?

Tevinter is suppose to resemble Ancient rome so they may have aqueducts as well as the qunari as for their purpose I won't comment because Aqueducts are suppose to provide water for latrines,baths as well as clear waste and we've seen no evidence of these things.Mages don't need any kind of technological engineering to get clean water, they have magic, that thing their empire was built on.Besides there is no mention or evidence of any massive structure ever having been there.A dam of that magnitude , even if it burst would not just disappear without a trace of its existence.Ostagar was an excellent defensive fortress of 'Dwarven make'.While it's no technological marval, It shows exquisite craftsmanship but then again the dwarves built a whole underground kingdom out of stone.The highway is impressive in the same likeness as the great wall of china, it's just very long and while a tower can hold great craftsmanship, it is not considered an advancement in technology.

You're citing lack of mention that they have dams and aqueducts? Okay, maybe, but since your point was that the flooding was proof of a miracle, your work still isn't done: this could still be the answer. And now how about the other explanations I added as I thought of them? I don't think you read them. A: Andraste simply used magic to bring the ocean into Tevinter (either through serious power, or with the help of other mages), or B: It just happened naturally. (Such things do, when you live next to an ocean.)

I'm not really sure how to argue with this, because I'm unsure what you're arguing.

The lyrium is only a conductor thing is pretty shaky though, if you're saying its nonmagical. People with absolutely no ability to work magic can use lyrium to create magical items. Some of these magical items are things that even mages cannot replicate. In fact, the lyrium is speculated to have been the reason they can't work magic: the idea is it mutated them over centuries to the point where they can't use magic, are heavily resistant to it, and are able to sense lyrium in the first place. Not to mention that one of the crafting resources in DA:O is said to have been reshaped by proximity to lyrium, and become magical that way. So the lyrium can do weird things. As for the lyrium-as-a-divine-substance thing, that's just the Chantry's spin. They can offer no evidence, to the best of my knowledge.

As to the spirits themselves. Hallucinations? No, that's that pretty obviously wrong. Real and not real? A better description. That doesn't mean that the people in the riddle room are the actual people, and if they aren't, can their words really be trusted?

No, I'm not saying the lyrium is not magical.The lyrium is but a conductor for enchantment and spells in that it needs someone to activate/power it, lyrium in the temple was in the walls.Lyrium is lethal to all but spirits so it doesn't surprise me that after many centuries the dwarves would form a resistance to the hostility of their enviorment in the same way that the turians developed metalic exoskeletons in mass effect to combat the radiation of their planet.Everything adapts to its enviorment in time.What crafting resource?The lyrium sings a song to spirits as justice mentions in awakening,it gave meredith god like powers to give life to inanimate objects. That is all the evidence we need to know it is far more than a raw resource.

I never argued that it was a mere raw resource. Accepting that, however, isn't the same as accepting that there's a god behind it. But your central point, as I understand it, is that it needs someone to activate it. This isn't the case. Lifestone, that crafting resource from Dragon Age: Origins, gets its properties from mere proximity.

The spirits of the gauntlet are memorys of andraste pulled from her ashes, of course they can be trusted.They are not the actual spirit of said person but the essence.Macfereth in the gauntlet states that he betrayed Andraste over jealousy, she did not know that while she burned at the stake.The disciple harvard who carried her ashes up the mountain was mortally wounded by an imperium sword while he watched her burn but instead of dieing the ashes from the fire healed him, far away from the temple's lyrium veins, she knew nothing of this.

It seems to me more likely that instead of being some manifestation of the person's essence, they're just Fade Spirits shaped by.. I dunno, the Guardian? Still makes more sense than that explanation where the people's essence was stored in the ashes.

Do we have any actual, verified, in-game proof of Harvard's healing? Besides a Codex entry which was meant to be taken as a story written by an in-game character who wasn't actually there to see this?

The lore is out on whether demons are strictly neccesary to perfom blood magic. Dragon Age: Origins outright states that they are, or at least for non-taint-fueled blood magic. Dragon Age II heavily implies that they aren't. It'd be nice to have some consistency there, am I right?

No it's consistent, it says demons taught blood magic to mages in origins and anders says "You have to look a demon in the eye and accept its offer to learn blood magic" in da2.

It's not consistent, actually. That has been discussed to death in the posts above yours.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 juin 2012 - 02:02 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Andrade was a Dreamer, like Feynrael from DA2, and a blood mage to boot.

That's why she was able to bring floods and droughts on her enemies, why she was often cited as taking long times of sleepful meditation with the Maker and how she was able to work entire crowds in her favor, getting them to worship her, as blood magic is very capable of doing.

Whether she was visited by a very powerful Pride demon disguising itself as 'The Maker' that she mistook for a deity, or she knowingly led a ploy to topple the Tevinter Imperium for her own reasons is up for debate, but ultimately of no consequence. Because the Tevinter's, who were masters of blood magic, likely had a way to stop another captured mage from using it, and that Andraste was burned while awake (obviously), she was unable to use her otherwise formidable blood mage or Dreamer powers to save herself from being burned alive.

Boom goes the dynamite.

[Emzamination]

You're citing lack of mention that they have dams and aqueducts? Okay, maybe, but since your point was that the flooding was proof of a miracle, your work still isn't done: this could still be the answer. And now how about the other explanations I added as I thought of them? I don't think you read them. A: Andraste simply used magic to bring the ocean into Tevinter (either through serious power, or with the help of other mages), or B: It just happened naturally. (Such things do, when you live next to an ocean.)

Until the dams existence crops up in a codex or as some rubble sticking up out the ocean in da3 it will have to remain speculation.The aqueducts however would not carry no where near enough water to drown out the whole city instantly, sure it would let a steady supply fall but it would take days to fill the city and besides aqueducts are not built to go over citys so the water would hit the walls.

First: Every tevinter crop suddenly went up in flames so they had no food to keep their armies going.This could be argued as someone merely throwing a stick of fire in the wheat but these were the fields of the magister lords, most likely guarded by demons,slaves and other enchantments as it was a major resource for the empire.Even so one torch would not destroy every crop in tevinter instantaneously

Second: The Burning fields was instantly followed by the city of minrantous being flooded and a great number of magister lords,demons and slaves being killed.

Two high level natural disasters do not just happen out of thin air, one behind the other, especially when they only target the opposing force.

I mentioned Andraste was no mage herself but probably had mage allys and no regular mage has that kind of power to raise whole oceans.Minrathous is not right next to the ocean so the water level would have to be raised insanely high to create a tsunami large enough to effect it, only a god could do that.

I never argued that it was a mere raw resource. Accepting that, however, isn't the same as accepting that there's a god behind it. But your central point, as I understand it, is that it needs someone to activate it. This isn't the case. Lifestone, that crafting resource from Dragon Age: Origins, gets its properties from mere proximity.

You were trying to say the phenomenon in the temple was caused by the lyrium in the walls affecting everything, no? Lyrium is the blood of the maker and only sings to his first children and possibly demons since they are his children to even if they've fallen out of favor. It's not really surprising the lifestones took on traits of the lyrium after being so close, everything is affected by it good or bad when in close proximity, Just as mages can be empowered by it, regular people bleed from their eyes from touching it.But the guardian did not gain his immortality just from being near it and as I mentioned, the ashes had healing properties long before they ever made it to the temple.

It seems to me more likely that instead of being some manifestation of the person's essence, they're just Fade Spirits shaped by.. I dunno, the Guardian? Still makes more sense than that explanation where the people's essence was stored in the ashes.

Do we have any actual, verified, in-game proof of Harvard's healing? Besides a Codex entry which was meant to be taken as a story written by an in-game character who wasn't actually there to see this?

The guardian is one of the first disciples bound to the ashes as an observer, he is no mage able to bind spirits of the fade.They were ash wraiths and there is a codex entry in the temple detailing how ash wraiths are created by immolation, IIRC.How so? Those spirits were all people andraste knew in life and they knew things about her post death she would not have known.

Edit: What more proof do you need? Andraste was burned at minranthous, fact.Do you really think the imperium would allow her follower to gather her remains for burial without a fight?

It's not consistent, actually. That has been discussed to death in the posts above yours.

Just because you can learn it from a book doesn't mean it didn't first come from demons before being recorded.The description you mention is talking about the blood you take from mortal bodys of the realm instead of the lyrium of the fade.

Modifié par Emzamination, 26 juin 2012 - 03:03 .

[Fallstar]

Emzamination wrote...

First: Every tevinter crop suddenly went up in flames so they had no food to keep their armies going.This could be argued as someone merely throwing a stick of fire in the wheat but these were the fields of the magister lords, most likely guarded by demons,slaves and other enchantments as it was a major resource for the empire.Even so one torch would not destroy every crop in tevinter instantaneously

Second: The Burning fields was instantly followed by the city of minrantous being flooded and a great number of magister lords,demons and slaves being killed.

Two high level natural disasters do not just happen out of thin air, one behind the other, especially when they only target the opposing force.

I mentioned Andraste was no mage herself but probably had mage allys and no regular mage has that kind of power to raise whole oceans.Minrathous is not right next to the ocean so the water level would have to be raised insanely high to create a tsunami large enough to effect it, only a god could do that.

And yet according to the Andrastian chantry, and based on Legacy it is probably true, the Tevinter Magisters were powerful enough to create a passage to the Golden City, and do things which were absolute violations of the cardinal rules of magic. Creating a tsunami or setting crops on fire is allowable within the cardinal rules and so isn't particularly impressive by comparison to what the original magisters did, so if Andraste was powerful enough there is no reason she couldn't do those things through magic, rather than through some divine power.

You were trying to say the phenomenon in the temple was caused by the lyrium in the walls affecting everything, no? Lyrium is the blood of the maker and only sings to his first children and possibly demons since they are his children to even if they've fallen out of favor. It's not really surprising the lifestones took on traits of the lyrium after being so close, everything is affected by it good or bad when in close proximity, Just as mages can be empowered by it, regular people bleed from their eyes from touching it.But the guardian did not gain his immortality just from being near it and as I mentioned, the ashes had healing properties long before they ever made it to the temple.

The ashes have healing properties. They could have been enchanted to gain those properties. Or it is possible that as the remnant of a powerful mage, they naturally acquired some magic property. The guardian could have been a spirit summoned by Andraste's followers who took her ashes to the mountain. 

The guardian is one of the first disciples bound to the ashes as an observer, he is no mage able to bind spirits of the fade.They were ash wraiths and there is a codex entry in the temple detailing how ash wraiths are created by immolation, IIRC.How so? Those spirits were all people andraste knew in life and they knew things about her post death she would not have known.

The guardian itself could be a spirit, summoned by one of the original people who took the ashes to the mountain. We have an example in the book Asunder of a demon that forgets it is a demon - since demons and spirits are basically the same except for what they embody, the guardian could likewise be a spirit that over the centuries has forgotten its original nature.

Just because you can learn it from a book doesn't mean it didn't first come from demons before being recorded.The description you mention is talking about the blood you take from mortal bodys of the realm instead of the lyrium of the fade.

Blood magic can be learned from books, or demons, or indeed other blood mages. We do not have a definitive answer as to where blood magic originated from. Yes we have codex entries that state that demons could be the original source of blood magic, but we also have codex entries that suggest that the old gods were the original source of blood magic. Another possibility is that the elves of Arlathan first taught humans blood magic. There is direct evidence for the first two, so until we receive more information you cannot say with any certainty where humans originally learned blood magic from.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 26 juin 2012 - 03:15 .

[dragonflight288]

I think Avernus outright states that demons are required to perfrom blood magic. That's what I was referring to.

Avernus: Blood magic comes from demons. They can counter every bit of lore I could find. But the Darkspawn taint! That is alien to them!

But then we also have blood magic texts taken from the library and its implied those books are how Jowan learned blood magic.

We also have Dalish codex entries that say that blood magic knowledge was taken from Arlathan and the elves of old, or at least, that they taught it to the first humans in Thedas. The Tevinters say they learned it from the Old Gods.

I'm guessing most of the source material has been destroyed, so demons are simply the most convenient source of knowledge of blood magic. Not the only source.

[Emzamination]

And yet according to the Andrastian chantry, and based on Legacy it is probably true, the Tevinter Magisters were powerful enough to create a passage to the Golden City, and do things which were absolute violations of the cardinal rules of magic. Creating a tsunami or setting crops on fire is allowable within the cardinal rules and so isn't particularly impressive by comparison to what the original magisters did, so if Andraste was powerful enough there is no reason she couldn't do those things through magic, rather than through some divine power.

The tevinter magisters used blood magic to open a way to the golden city in the fade.Traversing and willing things into being in the fade is a heck off a lot easier than preforming those actions in the physical realm because the fade has no set identity of it own.I also mentioned before that the tevinter magisters sank arlathan beneath the earth but again that was due to blood magic.It is nothing for a mage to summon an inferno within their field of vision and consume a field but all of the empires crops were destroyed, not just minranthos.I highly doubt andraste was simutaneously conjuring inferno after inferno to hit multiple locations.A mage's body has a limit to how much magic can be preformed at once, we see this as anders tires out from healing the sick boy in da2.As far as the tsunami goes...No.If the woman had the power raise the sea, she wouldn't of been a slave in the first place or any one with that kind of power for that matter.It would be much more conceivable that a large blizzard was summoned than a full scale tsunami.

The ashes have healing properties. They could have been enchanted to gain those properties. The guardian could have been a spirit summoned by Andraste's followers who took her ashes to the mountain. 

Unless a mage was right there enchanting them as she burned this doesn't fit.Harvard was healed from his sword wound by her ashes while they blew in the wind at her stake.

The guardian itself could be a spirit, summoned by one of the original people who took the ashes to the mountain. We have an example in the book Asunder of a demon that forgets it is a demon - since demons and spirits are basically the same except for what they embody, the guardian could likewise be a spirit that over the centuries has forgotten its original nature.

The guardian states he was one of the first disciples that helped carry andraste up the mountain and even talks about her being full of life.Cole couldn't remember any life before being in that dungeon.

Blood magic can be learned from books, or demons, or indeed other blood mages. We do not have a definitive answer as to where blood magic originated from. Yes we have codex entries that state that demons could be the original source of blood magic, but we also have codex entries that suggest that the old gods were the original source of blood magic. Another possibility is that the elves of Arlathan first taught humans blood magic. There is direct evidence for the first two, so until we receive more information you cannot say with any certainty where humans originally learned blood magic from.

We have codex entries and testimony that state blood magic comes from demons, the codex entries stating the old gods as the source are stated as chantry beliefs and we all know their views on the old gods.As for the elves of arlathan teaching humans blood magic, this would contradict the lore.The tevinter magisters unleashed blood magic on the elves of arlathan, sinking the city with only some refugees escaping.Those refugees were taken in by cadash thaig as we learn in witch hunt.Why would the magisters be superior in blood magic to the ones who taught them to begin with?

[Emzamination]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I think Avernus outright states that demons are required to perfrom blood magic. That's what I was referring to.

Avernus: Blood magic comes from demons. They can counter every bit of lore I could find. But the Darkspawn taint! That is alien to them!

But then we also have blood magic texts taken from the library and its implied those books are how Jowan learned blood magic.

We also have Dalish codex entries that say that blood magic knowledge was taken from Arlathan and the elves of old, or at least, that they taught it to the first humans in Thedas. The Tevinters say they learned it from the Old Gods.

I'm guessing most of the source material has been destroyed, so demons are simply the most convenient source of knowledge of blood magic. Not the only source.

Jowan learning blood magic from a book doesn't prove it didn't come from demons.Anyone can record what they learn in a book.The circle houses lots of Ancient tomes and text such as flemeth's grimoire wich is filled with ancient shamanistic magic.

What dalish codex?

[dragonflight288]

I'm currently trying to dig up the codex, but I found a wiki that says the same thing as me.

http://dragonage.wik...gic#cite_note-0

First part in the history.

Blood magic was the first form of magic in Thedas. According to legend, it was first taught to Archon Thalsian, founder of the Tevinter Imperium, by the Old God Dumat, the Dragon of Silence. In return for this dark gift, Thalsian promised to accept Dumat as his god and make worship of the Old Gods the official religion of the new Imperium. Historians argue on this point, suggesting the Imperium's mages may have actually learned it from the elves of Arlathan, since stories claim that ancient elves once possessed immortality. It may even have been that Thalsian or another mage simply made a deal with a demon, and the first Archon merely claimed to have bargained with Dumat in order to give the Imperium a better front.[1]

[labargegrrrl]

it's a single line from a religious song/poem that was uttered by a long dead prophet.

it strikes me as something that was said in a highly charged political setting.

like most great quotes, it speaks of a specific issue in ambiguous terms, but in a logical way. thus it appeals to both the reason and emotions of any audience. unfortunately, this also gives ownership and interpretation of the quote to anyone in that audience, so anyone and everyone can turn it into what they want it to be.

which is what makes it such a brilliant piece of writing.

it is what it is.

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I'd love it if we discovered that Andraste was actually a Mage.

I think that would be trite.

How so? The games have pretty much been leading up to this conclusion, so it seems like Andraste really was a Mage.

In my mind, she was a Somniari Blood Mage. What better way to defeat the Imperium then with their own weapon, but in the more benevolent sense of being used?

[Fallstar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I'd love it if we discovered that Andraste was actually a Mage.

I think that would be trite.

How so? The games have pretty much been leading up to this conclusion, so it seems like Andraste really was a Mage.

In my mind, she was a Somniari Blood Mage. What better way to defeat the Imperium then with their own weapon, but in the more benevolent sense of being used?

This would also explain how she was able to set fire to all of the Imperium's crops simultaneously; since mages and magisters weren't exactly uncommon in Tevinter, she could have entered their dreams and forced them to set fire to their own crops, then remove the memory of doing so. 

I also think that she wasn't just a Somniari Blood mage, but that she was a Somniari Blood Mage Abomination, and that rather than being possessed by a demon, she was possessed by a spirit of Mercy a la Anders and Justice,

Modifié par DuskWarden, 26 juin 2012 - 09:18 .