[quote]Emzamination wrote...
[quote]
You're citing lack of mention that they have dams and aqueducts? Okay, maybe, but since your point was that the flooding was proof of a miracle, your work still isn't done: this
could still be the answer. And now how about the other explanations I added as I thought of them? I don't think you read them. A: Andraste simply used magic to bring the ocean into Tevinter (either through serious power, or with the help of other mages), or B: It just happened naturally. (Such things do, when you live next to an ocean.) [/quote]
Until the dams existence crops up in a codex or as some rubble sticking up out the ocean in da3 it will have to remain speculation.The aqueducts however would not carry no where near enough water to drown out the whole city instantly, sure it would let a steady supply fall but it would take days to fill the city and besides aqueducts are not built to go over citys so the water would hit the walls. [/quote]
Your first few posts on this topic cited absolute proof. My response was that you had none. "It will have to remain speculation" is exactly my point.
[quote]
First: Every tevinter crop suddenly went up in flames so they had no food to keep their armies going.This could be argued as someone merely throwing a stick of fire in the wheat but these were the fields of the magister lords, most likely guarded by demons,slaves and other enchantments as it was a major resource for the empire.Even so one torch would not destroy every crop in tevinter instantaneously
Second: The Burning fields was instantly followed by the city of minrantous being flooded and a great number of magister lords,demons and slaves being killed.
Two high level natural disasters do not just happen out of thin air, one behind the other, especially when they only target the opposing force.
I mentioned Andraste was no mage herself but probably had mage allys and no regular mage has that kind of power to raise whole oceans.Minrathous is not right next to the ocean so the water level would have to be raised insanely high to create a tsunami large enough to effect it, only a god could do that.
[/quote]
Your reason for believing that Andraste was no mage (if memory serves, that was your original point) is because she wouldn't have called on the Maker if she was. Your reason for believing she called on the Maker is because she did things that you believe no mage can do, which provides a fairly good reason for
even a mage to accept his help. But
none of the things you mention contradict the few hard and fast limits set on magic, and even those limits are shown to have exceptions.
Not to mention that there are natural explanations for both those disasters. Despite your assertions, Minrathous (or some portion of it) looks like it could be right on the ocean, so if that disciple meant that Minrathous flooded, there's that explanation. Or it might have just been heavy flooding due to a rainstorm: I looked up his exact words, and that seems to be what he's saying. That's not too remarkable if you have a large number of mages, nor would it even require them. As to Minrathous being the location,
he never says that. In fact, taken from context, it might more easily have been the farmlands they used, or the locations of the armies themselves. (That second one would be a heck of a coincidence, but hey, magic, possible. Or they just got really lucky. Or maybe the Maker.) As to the kindled the sun's fire thing... as mentioned above, that seems to indicate a really bad harvest due to a poor summer, rather than someone lighting the place up. Might have been the Maker, might have been coincidence. (I'm willing to concede that a mage almost certainly couldn't do this.)
As for your argument that it couldn't be nature because those two events happened at basically exactly the same time? He never says that either. I've checked on YouTube
five times.
[quote]
[quote]I never argued that it was a mere raw resource. Accepting that, however, isn't the same as accepting that there's a god behind it. But your central point, as I understand it, is that it needs someone to activate it. This isn't the case. Lifestone, that crafting resource from Dragon Age: Origins, gets its properties from
mere proximity. [/quote]
You were trying to say the phenomenon in the temple was caused by the lyrium in the walls affecting everything, no? Lyrium is the blood of the maker and only sings to his first children and possibly demons since they are his children to even if they've fallen out of favor. It's not really surprising the lifestones took on traits of the lyrium after being so close, everything is affected by it good or bad when in close proximity, Just as mages can be empowered by it, regular people bleed from their eyes from touching it.But the guardian did not gain his immortality just from being near it and as I mentioned, the ashes had healing properties long before they ever made it to the temple.
[/quote]
As I mentioned, the only proof of the healing is a single story, completely unproven. As to the lyrium is the blood of the Maker thing? Unproven. Even the Codex says only that this is the Chantry line. Please either get some actual proof or
stop citing it as evidence.As for the Guardian not getting his immortality from being near the lyrium... why not? I'm not trying to say it was, I'm trying to say there's no proof it wasn't.
You're the one arguing proof. I'm the one arguing
ambiguity.
[quote]It seems to me more likely that instead of being some manifestation of the person's essence, they're just Fade Spirits shaped by.. I dunno, the Guardian? Still makes more sense than that explanation where the people's essence was stored in the ashes.
Do we have any actual, verified, in-game proof of Harvard's healing? Besides a Codex entry which was meant to be taken as a story written by an in-game character who wasn't actually there to see this? [/quote]
The guardian is one of the first disciples bound to the ashes as an observer, he is no mage able to bind spirits of the fade.They were ash wraiths and there is a codex entry in the temple detailing how ash wraiths are created by immolation, IIRC.How so? Those spirits were all people andraste knew in life and they knew things about her post death she would not have known.
Edit: What more proof do you need? Andraste was burned at minranthous, fact.Do you really think the imperium would allow her follower to gather her remains for burial without a fight?
[/quote]
Even assuming that that actually results in anything, I'm not sure that what emerges is the actual person. It could just be a Fade spirit. The codex itself mentions this. And since no magic currently known is able to raise the dead, keeping a person alive without their body seems like kind of a stretch. Since the apparitions that ask those riddles are Ash Wraiths, this makes whether or not they are the real people ambigous too. (I would argue that Vasilia almost certainly isn't.) Using a spirit to animate dust, on the other hand, doesn't even seem that remarkable. As to the Guardian? Maybe a Fade Spirit, maybe a disciple who got exposed to lyrium.
He's supposed to have gotten there after they'd all dispersed, and taken the ashes without a fight as a result. He's also supposed to have gotten there late because he was already wounded, and that's why he needed the ashes. (If you're going to cite a codex entry, please read it first.) There's also supposed to be no witnesses to this healing, and no specific witness is cited as saying he was wounded. So basically what I'm saying is that I require at least one witness, and preferably either more, or one who we actually meet in the flesh.
[quote] It's not consistent, actually. That has been discussed to death in the posts above yours.
[/quote]
Just because you can learn it from a book doesn't mean it didn't first come from demons before being recorded.The description you mention is talking about the blood you take from mortal bodys of the realm instead of the lyrium of the fade.
[/quote]
What I meant was that while the knowledge itself seems most likely to have come from demons, the demon itself may no longer be neccesary afterwards.
That is what I was disputing,
that is what the speculation was on, and if the demon is no longer neccesary when you have the knowledge, why is blood magic off limits? You've already stated that you don't follow the Chantry line on everything, and their original reasoning requires a logical leap anyway. Nor is this my main point, since blood magic isn't strictly neccesary for anything that happened, Maker or no.
Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 juin 2012 - 07:07 .
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