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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

thats1evildude wrote...

The creation of the darkspawn being deliberately engineered by the Old Gods doesn't preclude the existence of the Maker. In fact, it necessitates his existence, as the Magisters needed to enter the Golden City (or rather, the Black City) to be corrupted.

I think the Maker presents the best option of a god in the Thedas setting, considering that the Dalish gods are gone (except Fen'Harel, who's a massive ******) and the Old Gods now just want to kill everyone. Even if he's a bit passive-aggressive, he's still a basically decent deity.

(Unless the Maker actually is Fen'Harel, or something along those lines.)

The Magister we actually encounter said that it was already black and empty when they arrived, I think.

As to the best option of a god in Thedas... given the way they all act, I'd say probably the best option is it just evolved on its own somehow.

Fen'Harel's a massive ******, the Maker's basically an omnipotent teenager... hey, actually, maybe they are the same person!

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 26 juin 2012 - 08:24 .

[esper]

thats1evildude wrote...

The creation of the darkspawn being deliberately engineered by the Old Gods doesn't preclude the existence of the Maker. In fact, it necessitates his existence, as the Magisters needed to enter the Golden City (or rather, the Black City) to be corrupted.

I think the Maker presents the best option of a god in the Thedas setting, considering that the Dalish gods are gone (except Fen'Harel, who's a massive ******) and the Old Gods now just want to kill everyone. Even if he's a bit passive-aggressive, he's still a basically decent deity.

(Unless the Maker actually is Fen'Harel, or something along those lines.)

It goes directly against the Chantry's version of the Maker which is the only completely one we have been presented. Even with Leliana's heritical views we do not know what she thinks motivate the god. We have no where entertained the idea of other version or the chantry being half right.

You asked me to answer a question of what if the Maker is real. I answered that, now you want to go into a hypothecitcal other situations I am returning to my own premise which is the Maker does not exist. It do not see the gods as pick and choose. From the dalih point of view the maker can co-exist along with the elven gods, but from the chantry'¨s point of view the dalish gods cannot pro-exist along with the Maker because the Maker is the creator of everything. It is not just chose who to pick amongs a polytheistic belief. It is choose between polytheisme and a kind of monotheisme (not entirely as we know it but close enough) - the two beliefs are fundenmentally different. 

If we are leaving the hypotese, which you are, I return to my own belief which is the Maker does not exist in Thedas.

If you ask me where I think the taint come from I say the Deep Ground and some lyrium and dwarves doing something terrible wrong. I think Cory and co. was the creator of the Awakened Darkspawn.However I am not willing to discuss this further, in this thread because the origin of the Darkspawn are not the theme. 


 

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

How so? The games have pretty much been leading up to this conclusion, so it seems like Andraste really was a Mage.

Because it seems like a cheap trick to paint the Chantry as being in the wrong.

Not that the Chantry aren't in the wrong - but that's why there's no need to resort to such things.

I don't really see much in the games that leads me to think Andraste was a mage.  Just that one minor gift for a party member, that to me mostly seems to exist to parallel all the various attempts to explain stuff in the bible.

That all depends on how it's conveyed, though. Historically, the Chantry we know of today was only one of a myriad of cults devoted to worshipping Andraste and the Maker -- the Haven one's past being the one with the closest ties to Andraste herself.

If it was revealed that she was a Mage -- and indeed, the evidence* is more then just the gift to Wynne, circumstantial as it may be -- then that doesn't necessarily say the Chantry is wrong in the sense that they're "BAD". Wrong on the facts, certainly. But not wrong as in evil.

If the Chantry knew she was a Mage but hid that because it wasn't as glamorous as "The Maker's chosen" or because they just hated Mages, then sure it's painting them as in the wrong.

If they didn't know however, then they're simply misguided and lacking critical information that pertains to understanding Andraste's teachings regarding magic. Were they wrong? Yes. Were they in the wrong? Not necessarily.

Additionally, if say Divine Justinia V found this out and was planning on revealing it as a means to strengthen the argument for Mage reforms -- but without having Mages be completely free, like in Tevinter -- then it doesn't paint the Chantry as completely wrong. Primarily yes, but then we have a higher-up that was planning on revealing the truth.

The one thing it would definitely be is ironic. More so if she was a (Somniari OGB) Blood Mage. But wrong? All dependant on how Bioware would reveal such a thing.

*Evidence:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Since the days of Origins, I have long since thought that she was a Blood Mage at the very least. DAII made me believe she was a Somniari blood mage. And my case supporting such a theory I will present here, as I did on another thread a month or so ago:

First, we have the book that's a gift for Wynne, which was cast into a fire no doubt for being something deemed heretical to the popular belief of Andraste. How it ended up in Orzammar I don't know. Maybe the Dwarves found it and wanted to hold onto it, should they need to use the information it presents as leverage against the Chantry.

Second, we have the mystic blade entitled Glandivalis by Shartan. One of the abilities this blade is imbued with is the power to possibly take control of an enemy in battle. It's obviously blood magic.

Third, the Guardian himself says that Andraste would often spend days at a time meditating without food or water. A pair of boots obtainable in Witch Hunt I believe says that a mage of the Antivan Circle would often traverse the Fade for days on end as a hobby (to which she was subsequently misbranded as dead and buried alive).
 
Fourth, we have a statue from the Temple that was built after Andraste's death by her faithful followers with a very odd placement for the flames that light the area:



There might be more.

EDIT: Let's not forget that the stories claim that the powers of the Maker were on Andraste's side. That of fire and hail, storms and floods, drought and gusts, etc.

Whether she actually had any contact with the Maker is unknown, for now. She may never have really had anything to do with Him -- if He even exists -- or she may have been His Prophet all along.

It's enough to cast doubt on the Chantry's claims, even if it's not outright stating "She was a Mage"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 juin 2012 - 08:35 .

[Sajuro]

dragonflight288 wrote...

While Orlais lost its influence in most of the countries, the Chantry itself, did not. And the Chantry is so tied up with Orlais (the Divine named the Dragon Age, not only because a High Dragon appeared, but also to support the Orlesian King (or the Usurper King) in Ferelden in his battle against Loghain as his crest was a dragon. Only....he lost.

I'm just cynical of anything to do with the chantry.

Actually I thought it was going to be called the Sun Age in support of Orlais since the sun is its symbol but the high dragon showed up and they chose Dragon age because the Dragon was a symbol of great change.

[dragonflight288]

Actually I thought it was going to be called the Sun Age in support of Orlais since the sun is its symbol but the high dragon showed up and they chose Dragon age because the Dragon was a symbol of great change.

Here's the codex.

Thedas Calender

For most good folk, the details of our calendar have little purpose. It is useful only for telling them when the Summerday festival will be held, when the snows are expected to begin, and when the harvest must be complete. The naming of the years are a matter for historians and taxmen, and few if pressed could even tell you the reason that our current Age is named after dragons.

It is 9:30 Dragon Age, the thirtieth year of the ninth Age since the crowning of the Chantry's first Divine.

Each Age is exactly 100 years, with the next Age's name chosen in the 99th year. The scholars in Val Royeaux advise the Chantry of portents seen in that 99th year, and Chantry authorities pore over the research for months before the Divine announces the name of the imminent Age. The name is said to be an omen of what is to come, of what the people of Thedas will face for the next hundred years.

The current Age was not meant to be the Dragon Age. Throughout the last months of the Blessed Age, the Chantry was preparing to declare the Sun Age, named for the symbol of the Orlesian Empire, which at that time sprawled over much of the south of Thedas and controlled both Ferelden and what is now Nevarra. It was to be a celebration of Orlesian imperial glory.

But as the rebellion in Ferelden reached a head and the Battle of River Dane was about to begin, a peculiar event occurred: a rampage, the rising of a dreaded high dragon. Dragons had been thought practically extinct since the days of the Nevarran dragon hunts, and they say that to see this great beast rise from the Frostbacks was both majestic and terrifying. As the rampage began and the high dragon decimated the countryside in its search for food, the elderly Divine Faustine II abruptly declared the Dragon Age.

Some say the Divine was declaring support for Orlais in the battle against Ferelden, since the dragon is an element of the Dufayel family heraldry of King Meghren, the so-called Usurper King of Ferelden. Be that as it may, the high dragon's rampage turned towards the Orlesian side of the Frostback Mountains, killing hundreds and sending thousands more fleeing to the northern coast. The Fereldan rebels won the Battle of River Dane, ultimately securing their independence.

Many thus think that the Dragon Age will come to represent a time of violent and dramatic change for all of Thedas. It remains to be seen.

--From The Studious Theologian, by Brother Genitivi, Chantry scholar, 9:25 Dragon.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

(Unless the Maker actually is Fen'Harel, or something along those lines.)

'Twas the only Troll God base image I could find to place a caption on. I wish I could've placed a Trollface image over God's face, rather then use Jesus. But hey, you make do with what you can.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 juin 2012 - 02:01 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I am considering setting this as my wallpaper.

[WardenWade]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I am considering setting this as my wallpaper.

This is excellent!     I must say, I  the trickster...  

Modifié par WardenWade, 27 juin 2012 - 06:43 .

[unreadierLizard]

I kind of think that the Chantry demonization is easy to jump on when looking at it from an outside source.

The Chantry's been around for a while. The world saw what the Tevinter magisters did - they almost destroyed Thedas with their "let's go for a stroll in the Maker's house" idea - at least, that's implied by Corypheus.

I can understand the people and their distrust of magic - but the whole "Andraste is a mage" brings up a good point; it's kind of like Yevon from FFX - the priesthood's top honchos knew that Sin = Yevon but hid it.

I don't think the Chantry's top honchos would know that Andraste was a mage; she might not have been, after all. But if she is, I don't think they would know.

[dragonflight288]

The Chantry did rise a century after her death. And was only one of many Andrastian cults that was just lucky enough to be picked to help an Orlesian warlord conquer everyone else. I think they don't know, but because they didn't know her personally (add in their belief they can alter the Chant of Light by removing certain stanzas they disagree with) and I think they largely misinterpret a lot as well, to match their own beliefs.

[rapscallioness]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Andrade was a Dreamer, like Feynrael from DA2, and a blood mage to boot.

That's why she was able to bring floods and droughts on her enemies, why she was often cited as taking long times of sleepful meditation with the Maker and how she was able to work entire crowds in her favor, getting them to worship her, as blood magic is very capable of doing.

Whether she was visited by a very powerful Pride demon disguising itself as 'The Maker' that she mistook for a deity, or she knowingly led a ploy to topple the Tevinter Imperium for her own reasons is up for debate, but ultimately of no consequence. Because the Tevinter's, who were masters of blood magic, likely had a way to stop another captured mage from using it, and that Andraste was burned while awake (obviously), she was unable to use her otherwise formidable blood mage or Dreamer powers to save herself from being burned alive.

Boom goes the dynamite.

This for the most part. Although, I wondered at times if the reason she didn't cry out in pain was because she used some...magical fire ward..thing.

As far as the so called Maker, I also wondered if it was really some Trickster type demon. Or even an Old God that was a rival of the..other Old Gods. The Dragon gods? According to Elven lore there was a war in heaven between two "god" factions. And a Trickster god that tricked them both, and bound them. One faction was bound beneath the earth..right? I believe so. I wonder if that faction is not indeed the dragon old gods.

The worshipped by the Tevinter's. So, Trickster god doesn't like this. Wants to usurp power from them, and takes the guise as this Maker.

Whether, or not Andraste knew of this is something to consider. Perhaps, this so called betrayal by her husband..Malfarath? Malforath...well...perhaps it wasn't jealousy about being a second husband and second in the hearts of the people. Maybe he caught a peek. A glimpse of what was really going on. Knew it was dangerous. They were pawns. And betrayed Andraste in order to stop this "maker".

At any rate, teh Chantry assigns miracles to everything Andraste did. The fact that Tevinter was so weak after the blight, and Andraste and her husband decided to strike at the weakened enemy at that point, is considered something miraculous. Blessed timing. When obviously it was the strategy of straight forward war lords.

I think Andraste very well could have been a mage and simply despised the type of magic Tevinter used. And what they used it for. To oppress. Viciously.

Or she was an extremely cunning warlord...uh,freedom fighter. It's a great way to control people.

[Samzo77]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Not to mention that mages can use swords just fine in DAO. Just because they don't in DA2 doesn't mean that they can't, and we have previous evidence to show that they can.

Edit: Wait, was that sarcasm? Hard to tell when you do it right...

Guilty as charged. 

[Samzo77]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But the statues depicting her in the temple in Haven showed her clearly holding a fireball as if she were a mage. And that temple wasn't built by the Chantry to symbolize her 100 years after her death. It was built by those who knew her personally.

Thats a great point. I hadn't paid close attention to those statues. I don't know if I could use it as imperial evidence though, as it could be symbolic flames, or just a design choice by those who created the statue. Whose to say that Andraste doesn't carry the flame of the Maker, or of the revolution, or of hope, or anything else spiritually symbolic. Still, a good theory though.

[LolaLei]

They couldn't really have the flame coming out the top of her head... Well, they could, but it wouldn't have the same effect lol.

But you're right, she probably was a Mage. That would royally ****** off the Templars wouldn't it!

[LolaLei]

I dunno about that concept, it's possible I guess... I wonder if we'll ever find out if she's a Mage or not?

[dragonflight288]

I have repeatedly stated in the past through multiple threads that templars are using spirit magic, albeit a lesser version of the spells under different names. Have a mage as an Arcane Warrior who specializes in the school of spirit, and you'll have an overpowered templar. Spirit Warriors are non-mages who tap into the Fade by communing with Fade Spirits and gain powers that way, despite having no magical affinity whatsoever. They are often mistaken for maleficar themselves. The School of Spirit is often mistaken for blood magic (told in its codex)

Example: the ability to raise the dead to fight, Animate Dead, is a school of spirit spell. Not a blood magic one.

Thats a great point. I hadn't paid close attention to those statues. I don't know if I could use it as imperial evidence though, as it could be symbolic flames, or just a design choice by those who created the statue. Whose to say that Andraste doesn't carry the flame of the Maker, or of the revolution, or of hope, or anything else spiritually symbolic. Still, a good theory though.

It's evidence to support the theory. Whether it's true or not, I cannot say. But there is far more than enough evidence to cast reasonable doubt on the Chantry's claim. I don't know what's what with Andraste herself, but I do know that it isn't farfetched that she may have been a mage. Maybe even a Dreamer herself. Or she may have been a powerful warlord who simply had a string of coincidences go in her favor.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Alistair openly admits that the Templars use magic, but that the Chantry says it doesn't count because it doesn't work against non-mages. That's the weakest argument they've ever made, even without factoring in the Holy Smite talent.

I don't think Templars use spirit magic, though. I think it's more a Charles Atlas Superpower. (For those who aren't familiar with the term, it's coined in honor of a bodybuilder who was built like a freaking tank. As the name suggests, it refers to people who work out or practice until they can do things that look superhuman. Like if Superman pumped iron instead of being an alien.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 juillet 2012 - 12:56 .

[DRTJR]

Actually, I think that it means that you are a Human/Elf/Quanari first before you are a Mage, as such you should not be given special rights for being a mage. Although I think that Andreste was a mage.

[Melca36]

I think everybody should read this when they get the chance. Its a bit long but its an excellent read...

http://katiebour.tum...-whining-anders

[Fallstar]

Melca36 wrote...

I think everybody should read this when they get the chance. Its a bit long but its an excellent read...

http://katiebour.tum...-whining-anders

Excellent article. I found the bit about the Circles being political conveniences rather than actually being a part of any of Andraste's teachings particularly interesting.

[dragonflight288]

That was a very good article. I enjoyed reading it.

[Lazy Jer]

It's a cookbook! (sorry, someone had to say it).

[unreadierLizard]

I see "mage freedom" and think of Kirkwall.

Even if you side with the mages and defend them against the Templars, they still all run around willy nilly using blood magic behind your back.

I know, I know, the whole "Kirkwall has more then average blood mages" but still - it's probably NOT a good sign if you're a regular old Joe.