113 réponses à ce sujet

[Cirram55]

ashwind wrote...
Since Dragon Dogma isnt released for PC - I dont get to play it so I will not comment on it although I have many doubts from the vids I have seen that it is a true action game.

Truthfully, I didn't play it firsthand either, as I don't own a console. However I had a brief run with a friend's copy, and yes, for what I've seen/played, combat is heavy action (even though it has some truly interesting tactical mechanics).

As for TES, actually TES only creates the illusion of being actiony but it is not an action game in my book. Stats & Skills do govern combat in TES 1-4; Skills alone governs combat in Skyrim.

Well I did think about Skyrim while writing, so yes, that "TES" was basically "Skyrim". I still think that the action is there, and perks do not take it away. I don't know why, but in Oblivion it didn't feel much more different, I thought there was no real point in the stats (and in fact Skyrim worked like a charm even without them).
Action is the core of TES combat, and the creators decided to fully walk that path.

But DA's combat system is a companion based, tactical based combat system. So action does not fit well in DA.

I agree, as DAII showed us so well, most of the times trying to be two games at once is to be no game at once.

Modifié par Cirram55, 21 juin 2012 - 05:53 .

[MichaelStuart]

Cirram55 wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I just rather combat be determined purely by player skill and not by how many points I have in strength, dexterity, cunning, etc.

Combat à la TES and Dragon's Dogma (and a bunch of other games) is completely different from Dragon Age's system.
One relies on "player skill" (read "button mashing"), while the other on "PC stats".
Anyway, the main difference is that actiony-combat gets extremely boring extremely fast (DD's hack&slash has quite a few merits though), whereas tactical combat (DAII to a much lesser extent if you cut out combos) gets extremely boring only if you (extremely) want it to be so.

Staarbux wrote...

But it's an RPG.....that's the whole point.

Yep, there's also that.
Among the other many things, RPGs are defined by stats.

And hear I thought RPG's were defined by being able to role play a character.

To me, boring is when I see a enemy about to attack my character, but all I can do is stand there.
To me, boring is when I hit a enemy, but I do no damage because I "miss"

As for button mashing, try to play any real action game doing this and see how far you get. A real action makes you think about what your enemy is going to do next and how your going to counter it.

Ultimately, I play these games for the story.
The only thing I really want from combat is for it to be quick and challenging, and not having to do it every five minutes.  

[Cirram55]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Cirram55 wrote...
Among the other many things, RPGs are defined by stats.

And here I thought RPG's were defined by being able to role play a character.

To me, boring is when I see a enemy about to attack my character, but all I can do is stand there.
To me, boring is when I hit a enemy, but I do no damage because I "miss"

As for button mashing, try to play any real action game doing this and see how far you get. A real action makes you think about what your enemy is going to do next and how your going to counter it.

Ultimately, I play these games for the story.
The only thing I really want from combat is for it to be quick and challenging, and not having to do it every five minutes.  

Allow me to repeat myself: Among many other things, RPGs are also defined by stats.
The bold-italic-underlined bit implies that RPGs are, y'know, many other things other than that (meaning of course playing a role, having an entire world react to your actions, choice-and-consequence and blahblah).
I don't think I could make it clearer for you to understand.

Besides, as far as I know, cRPGs' combat tries to emulate pen and paper RPGs, with dice and chance playing an important part in the whole thing, hence the miss/critical/resist chance.
So, yeah: RPG combat is not action combat. That's it. Whether you like it or not.
I like it just fine, but I can understand other's tastes.
Each to their own.

Modifié par Cirram55, 21 juin 2012 - 10:29 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Let us cast combat spells at any time - not just during combat.
Let us use stealth outside of combat for reconnaissance.

In fact, just scrap the whole concept of there being some metaphysical state of combat. Let the game's mechanics work the same way all of the time.

[Sylvius the Mad]

MichaelStuart wrote...

A real action makes you think about what your enemy is going to do next and how your going to counter it.

Any good tactical combat does that.  The difference is that action combat forces the player to formulate a tactical plan and implement it in real time.

And that's not acceptable. 

I want to pause combat, select abilities and targets while paused, and then unpause the game to resolve outcomes.  Never should my physical skill with a mouse be relevant.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 21 juin 2012 - 10:10 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Cirram55 wrote...

Action is the core of TES combat, and the creators decided to fully walk that path.

That's my biggest complaint with Skyrim.  If there were a VATS-like system that let us pause the game to select targets, that would have made Skyrim just about perfect.

[MichaelStuart]

Cirram55 wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

Cirram55 wrote...
Among the other many things, RPGs are defined by stats.

And here I thought RPG's were defined by being able to role play a character.

To me, boring is when I see a enemy about to attack my character, but all I can do is stand there.
To me, boring is when I hit a enemy, but I do no damage because I "miss"

As for button mashing, try to play any real action game doing this and see how far you get. A real action makes you think about what your enemy is going to do next and how your going to counter it.

Ultimately, I play these games for the story.
The only thing I really want from combat is for it to be quick and challenging, and not having to do it every five minutes.  

Allow me to repeat: Among many other things, RPGs are also defined by stats.
The bold-italic-underlined bit implies that RPGs are, y'know, many other things other than that (meaning of course playing a role, having an entire world react to your actions, choice-and-consequence and blahblah).
I don't think I could make it clearer for you to understand.

Besides, as far as I know, RPG combat tries to emulate pen and paper RPGs, with dice and chance playing an important part in the whole thing.
So, yeah: RPG combat is not action combat. That's it. Whether you like it or not.
I like it just fine, but I can understand other's tastes.
Each to their own.

I understand, I just disagree.

 



 

[Androme]

 Much more focus on non-combat gameplay.

hint: conversations.

[MichaelStuart]

@Sylvius the Mad

Would you agree to action combat for Dragon age 3 if there was a VATS system?

Modifié par MichaelStuart, 21 juin 2012 - 10:54 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

MichaelStuart wrote...

@Sylvius the Mad

Would you agree to action combat for Dragon age 3 if there was a VATS system?

I would probably deny that it was still action combat, but yes.  As long as I could use the VATS-like system for every combat event with no real-time component, yes.

This is the same as my position regarding Mass Effect's combat.  Yes, it looks like action combat, but you can pause the game, select targets, give orders, trigger abilities, and even aim your gun while paused.  Mass Effect's combat is stat-driven RPG combat that's been dressed up to look like action combat (and I suppose you could play it like action combat if you wanted).

[Cirram55]

Androme wrote...

Much more focus on non-combat gameplay.

hint: conversations.

Agree.

More hints: puzzles and riddles; hidden side quests accessible or solvable only by certain types of PCs (depending on allignment personality/class/specialization/etc.); problems you can talk away with diplomacy and not by stabbing everyone in the room.

For convos: I was replaying PS:T a week ago, and remembered how much I loved that the higher the NO's intelligence and wisdom skills were the more dialogue options you were given (the most obvious example is the first chapter in the Mortuary, higher skills open lots of options up, as well as ways to deceive the dust(wo)men with talk rather than by snapping their necks).

Modifié par Cirram55, 21 juin 2012 - 11:24 .

[Celboy89]

Combat System:  I have an idea for Dragon Age 3's combat system in order to keep it nice and fluid like DA2, but allow for the same kind of strategy as DAO.  The first thing is that the system is divided up across the classes to provide a different feel for each and present true replayability for those who like combat.  The most important thing about it is that as a system it just would look more pretty...heres why:

Warrior:  Unlike the other two classes the individual who plays the warrior would derive their combat simularly to DA2 by button mashing and more strategizing things like nockback, enemy type, and positioning on the field.  However, the difference is that this time around for the Warrior it would even play out more so in action by providing all of the Warrior's Activated Attacks as "instant cooldown" with far less stamina used per Activated attack.  The attacks themselves would be vastly weaker than the previous games, but with far more subsequental use.  The strategy of the warrior would be to take their tree combination and work the apponent around the field by exploiting a weakness strategicly in an instant.  This way combat is pretier for a warrior, but ustains its strategic sense.  Add in a few sustained spells based on the trees and the warrior playthrough becomes like a fighting game with progression.

Mage:  The Mage's plug for realtime combat would be what I call "Forms".  At first it would appear that the Mage would use a simular system as was seen in DA2.  However, the player would quickly notice that their character not only fires a ranged bolt of magic with their basic attack, but their seems to be some kind of AOE force bursting from them when the basic attack is initiated.  This is because when they progress through the trees they would find that all of the Mages abilities are Sustained.  This would be because the abilities themselves are forms that alter/add to the physical appearance of the character and change/add to the affects of the AOE burst and the ranged attack bolt of the basic attack using mana.  Some of the effects depending on the Sustained spells would be helpful to allies in the AOE burst, and others would be a negative effect on enemies caught in that same burst and or hit by the ranged bolt.  The idea is that for the first time the basic attack of the mage is not only important, but actually carries all of the weight of Sustained spells in the active battle.  The best part is that for each active spell, something would be added aestheticly to the character to add imagery to the way they fight and what they do on the field.  An elemental and primal mage whose basic attacks dish out a flury of fire, lightning, and stone with each attack might firstly have morphed into a staff wielding stone golem form of him/herself from the Stone sustained spell, have flames in the eyes and nostrils from the Fire sustained spell, and an electrical current running across the rocky exterior due to the Lightning sustained spell.  Remove even one of these sustained spells from use and the mage would only lose that physical aesthetic, the rest would remain.  Another example might be a blood mage that calls numerous demon forms, well each form would add to the main attack some how but would also add elements of each demon to the physical appearance of the character, mixed with whatever other sustained spells from other trees might aestheticly have to offer.

Rogue:  In the Rogue's combat system I see the addition of tons of unique tricks that can be used in combat, but at the same time a focus on out of combat activity.  Choosing the Rogue as a class this time around wouldn't be like choosing a weaker warrior that can go invisible.  Instead, some of the abilities become applicably useful in situations outside of combat expanding on the old pickpocket, trap removal, and stealth reconiscance strategy.  This time trees like Bard and Scoundrel should go as far as to allow a player to use purely out of combat activated and sustained abilities to make a character like the player more, temporarily fall in love, or even be rused into selling items for cheaper.

Characters:  What I'd like to see is a vast selection of deeply story reflective characters, one from each gender within each race.  I also think Flemeth should be in the party.  And something amazing to experiment with is to have The Hero of Ferelden and the Hero of Kirkwall be party members carrying the aesthetic looks and personality choices from the previous games to add an eyepopping wow factor to the player's experience.  As far as the player is concerned, I think being able to make the Hero of Orlais any of the four given races including Qunari would be a great return to that control feel from Origins.  And if one is wondering how the hell to fit a Qunari as the Hero of Orlais in one of the origins, well its simple... BANISHMENT muahahahah.  No but really that would be sick to bring that back.  But one thing that bothers me I would like to see added to the game is some basic emotional inflection on the faces of the active party members in between conversation choices.  They all look so static, and I'd like to see them react to jokes by just laughing the background or facepaling or something based on the character, just a little eyebrow raise or something once in a while and they wont look like robots when they're not talking.

Fun with music:  Just as a thought, let the player replace any of the musical tracks in the game with their own files as to get exactly the experience they want in a playthrough.  Both for Consol and PC.

Finally I've got some suggestions for voice actors that could play the Hero of Orlais:
Human Male Lead:  Jean Reno
Human Female Lead:  Monica Bellucci
Dwarf Male Lead:  Michael Ironside
Dwarf Female Lead:  Erica Durance
Elf Male Lead:  Gerard Butler
Elf Female Lead:  Laura Fraser
Qunari Male Lead:  Kieth David
Qunari Female Lead:  Lani Minella

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Celboy89 wrote...


Fun with music:  Just as a thought, let the player replace any of the musical tracks in the game with their own files as to get exactly the experience they want in a playthrough.  Both for Consol and PC.

One of the best suggestions yet. I've already got a final battle theme picked out. "Welcome to The Jungle", Live Era version. (Oh my f(#*#ing God I hope they let us do this.)

Edit: For a normal battle, I'd probably pick either "Somebody's Gonna Get Their Head Kicked In Tonight" by StrikerS or "Normal Battle" by Nobuo Uematsu.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 23 juin 2012 - 01:11 .

[Jozape]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Let us cast combat spells at any time - not just during combat.
Let us use stealth outside of combat for reconnaissance.

In fact, just scrap the whole concept of there being some metaphysical state of combat. Let the game's mechanics work the same way all of the time.

This. Nothing's more irritating than being unable to prepare for a battle, and only being able to run into ambushes even when we know we shouldn't.

[ashwind]

Cirram55 wrote...

--

Well I did think about Skyrim while writing, so yes, that "TES" was basically "Skyrim". I still think that the action is there, and perks do not take it away. I don't know why, but in Oblivion it didn't feel much more different, I thought there was no real point in the stats (and in fact Skyrim worked like a charm even without them).
Action is the core of TES combat, and the creators decided to fully walk that path.

--

Evidently you must have not played a Warrior in Oblivion and reached level 20+ with about 40 Agility. Every donkey will stagger you like HULK. With the wrong stats in Oblivion, you are in for the most painful experience in all TES series and player skills simply cant make up for it. Skyrim has shown great improvement but at the end of the day - skills/perks still plays an extremely heavy role that player skills cant make up for. Thus, not really "actiony" imo.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Combat:more tactical,no respawning enemies in every battle,take away the hack and slash feeling and the button mashing,take away cool time from potions,lyrium and stamina draughts
Non Combat:Bring skills back,bring the persuasion and intimidate options back,get rid of the dialogue wheel,bring the tier list back for armor and weapons,get rid of that star system they had for items in DAII.I hated getting a good named weapon or unique piece of armor only to find some random dull item have better stats,stealth mode outside of combat

[Xewaka]

Non-combat gameplay being relevant again. Specifically, non-combat skills that are a valid alternative to combat skills, puzzle solving, and alternate routes to solve conflict that don't imply pointy sticks.

Modifié par Xewaka, 22 juin 2012 - 06:58 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xewaka wrote...

Non-combat gameplay being relevant again. Specifically, non-combat skills that are a valid alternative to combat skills, puzzle solving, and alternate routes to solve conflict that don't imply pointy sticks.

They didn't remove Coercion for DA2, did they?

I'm even less sure I want to buy that game now.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

They didn't remove Coercion for DA2, did they?

I'm even less sure I want to buy that game now.

They removed all of the skills.  There are no skills in DA2.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

They didn't remove Coercion for DA2, did they?

I'm even less sure I want to buy that game now.

They removed all of the skills.  There are no skills in DA2.

...

[wardy164]

I'd like to see a few things in DA3:

-More specializations (Mage perspective). In DA2 I felt confined when picking specializations because, primarily, I disliked playing a healer, so Spirit Healer wasn't much of an option for me. Playing a 'Good' mage also blocks out blood mage for me. This leaves Force mage, which isn't bad, but it was the only one I felt I could pick, keeping in line with the type of mage I was playing. I think it would also be cool if some specializations incorporated other classes too, like Arcane Warrior in DAO, and have specializations such as Arcane Archer for Rogue or Spirit Warrior for Warrior, or a tanking type Rogue which focused on their dexterity in dodging attacks, while keeping aggro. This would make it a lot more interesting and would allow more free reign on the type of character you'd like to play. I say this because I loved the way mages attacked in DA2 (it felt awesome) and I loved the staff/swords/clubs etc that you could have, but when you used the weapon end of the staff on a close enemy, it was a little disappointing to hit next to nothing and have to run back and cast, instead of having a warrior/mage combined specialization and being able to deal damage close up, and from afar

-Bring back spell combo's/add warrior and rogue combos, not just cross class. This was a good idea to have in DA2, but I still felt the spell combo's in DAO were a lot better; there was nothing more satisfying than conjuring a Storm of the Century in the middle of a large group of darkspawn. I think it would be cool to bring these back, but somehow incorporate combos for rogues and warriors too.

-Ability to visit different places. Don't get me wrong, I did like DA2, but playing DAO again made me realise how much I loved visiting different areas, different races, learning about each race's culture, government etc. You did visit races in DA2, but I felt it was a lot less focused upon than in DAO. Granted, you could read the Codex pages for info on this stuff, but personally, I prefer to be involved with whatever I'm learning about, and I only really read codex's if there's something not directly within the storyline, just lore.

-Combat variations. Like I said before I loved the way you attacked in DA2; rogues actually felt dexterous and speedy, warriors felt strong and powerful and mages felt awesome flinging their staff around like some kind of monk. The only thing I'd like to see improved would be to add variations the the animations of combat. It would be even better to have 2 / 3 different default attacking animations rather than just 1.

These are the main things I'd like to see. They are all from the perspective of a Mage primarily as you could probably tell, but I have played the other classes . There are other obvious things that everyone seems to want (e.g. no more reused areas) but those never seemed to bother me as much. Yes, it would be better without, but It doesn't make much difference to me personally.

I'm looking forward to what DA3 will have to offer!

[Arcane_Warrior_Revan]

Thank you to all of you for your comments


I'd like to fight a dragon like in DA: Origins, but if they are changing the art, I'd like to see something terrifying, a dragon that looks really menacing, examples:

Bahamut (Final Fantasy 9) www.myfreewallpapers.net/games/pages/final-fantasy-ix-bahamut.shtml

Dragon God (Demon Souls) oyster.ignimgs.com/ve3d/images/04/89/48941_orig.jpg

Hellkite Dragon (Dark Souls) i.imgur.com/lGFh6.jpg

Dragon (Reign of Fire (film)) abonabam.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/reign_of_fire_dragon____by_kl6.jpg

They don't have to be like Godzilla, just enough big and menacing.

Modifié par Arcane_Warrior_Revan, 23 juin 2012 - 07:20 .

[Celboy89]

If an enemy and the main character have become somewhat acquainted in the story they should have a rival banter in combat that is really specific, for example the rival enemy happens to get the hero down to 25% health and the enemy says "You're so close to death, just accept it..." if the player quickly gets the hero back up above 25% the hero would suddenly come back with something like "Think again!" or if they are a Reaver "Death...makes me stronger!". When a character is injured they should dramatically limp while moving and get more impassioned when striking, like blood curdling roaring and stuff... And PLEASE don't do not don't don't don't get rid of the beautiful real-time combat of the Warrior from DA2, instead remove the cool-down time on the warrior abilities and make them less damaging to compensate. Maybe the Mage should be more strategic, but Warriors need to remain button mashers, just add variety to the moves by taking out cool-down. Also bring back the special execution moves from DA2, the combat for a warrior should feel free and mobile, but share painful beauty with speed and gritty grapples. Oh and I want this song to play while I kill stuff!!! BERSERKER RAGE!!! ME LIKE DRAGON AGE!!!

[Celboy89]

My fiance just suggested to me that instead of having a billion intricate side quests that don't even affect the story, she wants to see more focus in the story on close relationships,and that they should define fifty percent of the story. Then I suddenly thought about combat and was like, it would be interesting to add to the social nature of combat that has never been explored. Perhaps drawing agro from a party member, or healing them, or killing an enemy just before it kills them would add friendship points whereas, using blood magic to steal their health, or completely evading an enemy mid scuffle to let the enemy attack a party member instead, or even leaving your party members behind and fleeing the battlefield completely would add rivalry points. So if you are more honorable and courageous in battle certain people will like you, where as if you are a coward and a user in battle people will hate you. And y'know what, I want to see some horse and griffin riding.

[Celboy89]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Combat:more tactical,no respawning enemies in every battle,take away the hack and slash feeling and the button mashing,take away cool time from potions,lyrium and stamina draughts
Non Combat:Bring skills back,bring the persuasion and intimidate options back,get rid of the dialogue wheel,bring the tier list back for armor and weapons,get rid of that star system they had for items in DAII.I hated getting a good named weapon or unique piece of armor only to find some random dull item have better stats,stealth mode outside of combat

Please don't do any of this^ with the exception of the armor thing.  The realtime combat system and mass effect style conversations were what I loved about DAII the most.  However, I do like the idea of having my armor and weapons that actually look awesome and unique actually pack the most punch.  Take a look at the transmog system from world of warcraft for reference, theres an aesthetic system there that might do some good here.