421 réponses à ce sujet

[Olueq]

Grimwick wrote...

I personally find it ridiculous that Garrus and Tali don't get as much hate as Liara for being writer's pets since they are too.

They are the only characters to be in the squad in all three games and Garrus is one of the characters with the most lines in the entire series (Liara is roughly the same, I suppose). Declaring Liara is a writer's pet because of plot armour is a trite argument seeing as the other characters can only die at very specific points in the series. It is also moot because Garrus ends up with just as much, if not more, content than the other possible kill-able characters. Liara's overuse in ME3 is only really because she is one of the few guaranteed squad-members still available, therefore has a lot of plot-related lines.

Complaints directed at her replacing LIs in the more personal moments shouldn't really be directed at her - it's more BW's fault that they couldn't be bothered to write up the lines rather than them specifically choosing Liara for the scenes.

I get some of the reasons why people are upset but jeez people take their dislike to seriously aggressive and offensive levels here.

Have you not read anything? Theres so much more to it. Her plot armor, DLC, comics, ll the sublt references in the games suggest that shepard cares more for her. Like the flashback at the end, or how shes always coming to see you in ur room, or the memorial she makes, the plot relevance she has.. it all adds up. She also has the best romance scene by far. I mean, really? Know what I got? Shepard taking off talis invisible mask and kissing. Yeah, Bioware didnt even care enough to make sure there werent any glitches in the scene for someone whos not Liara.

Modifié par Olueq, 21 juin 2012 - 09:37 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

This is how I would rank the characters in terms of being writer's pets. The writer being Mac, of course.

1.) Liara








2.) Garrus (his character)
3.) Earth kid (probably his)
4.) James (his again)
5.) Wrex (his again)
6.) Tali

The rest do not qualify.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 21 juin 2012 - 09:39 .

[Grimwick]

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

I personally find it ridiculous that Garrus and Tali don't get as much hate as Liara for being writer's pets since they are too.

They are the only characters to be in the squad in all three games and Garrus is one of the characters with the most lines in the entire series (Liara is roughly the same, I suppose). Declaring Liara is a writer's pet because of plot armour is a trite argument seeing as the other characters can only die at very specific points in the series. It is also moot because Garrus ends up with just as much, if not more, content than the other possible kill-able characters. Liara's overuse in ME3 is only really because she is one of the few guaranteed squad-members still available, therefore has a lot of plot-related lines.

Complaints directed at her replacing LIs in the more personal moments shouldn't really be directed at her - it's more BW's fault that they couldn't be bothered to write up the lines rather than them specifically choosing Liara for the scenes.

I get some of the reasons why people are upset but jeez people take their dislike to seriously aggressive and offensive levels here.

Have you not read anything? Theres so much more to it. Her plot armor, DLC, comics, ll the sublt references in the games suggest that shepard cares more for her. Like the flashback at the end, or how shes always coming to see you in ur room, or the memorial she makes, the plot relevance she has.. it all adds up. She also has the best romance scene by far. I mean, really?

Oh I've read pretty much all the reasons people have.

Some are genuine - such as her getting more attention LI-wise - and these should be directed not at her character or her fans, but to BW and the devs.

On the other hand there are many more 'reasons' which have been contrived out of pure hatred or dislike of her character. The plot-armour point is really a non-argument. It is incredibly difficult to make a plot-driven game where all the plot related dialogue can be killed off. Because Liara hasn't been able to die she is the obvious and most logical choice for pure practical reasons. It would be stupid of BW to re-write and act the plot-relevant lines for a variety of characters who could be dead in any number of playthroughs.

Even then there would be the issue of who would get these lines? Would it make sense for Garrus to be the one researching prothean tech for the Crucible? Not really.

The flashback and her coming to see you have already been addressed. It's simply Biowares laziness. It's not that specifically chose her above other characters but that they chose her because she was the easy option to write for. The flashback is just part BW's ridiculous hashed ending and it's simply an indicator to how much work they put into it - nothing more.

The subtle references? Huh?

And just a quick note but please read my post before replying. I did point out several potential reasons/points you seem to have ignored.

[Olueq]

Grimwick wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

I personally find it ridiculous that Garrus and Tali don't get as much hate as Liara for being writer's pets since they are too.

They are the only characters to be in the squad in all three games and Garrus is one of the characters with the most lines in the entire series (Liara is roughly the same, I suppose). Declaring Liara is a writer's pet because of plot armour is a trite argument seeing as the other characters can only die at very specific points in the series. It is also moot because Garrus ends up with just as much, if not more, content than the other possible kill-able characters. Liara's overuse in ME3 is only really because she is one of the few guaranteed squad-members still available, therefore has a lot of plot-related lines.

Complaints directed at her replacing LIs in the more personal moments shouldn't really be directed at her - it's more BW's fault that they couldn't be bothered to write up the lines rather than them specifically choosing Liara for the scenes.

I get some of the reasons why people are upset but jeez people take their dislike to seriously aggressive and offensive levels here.

Have you not read anything? Theres so much more to it. Her plot armor, DLC, comics, ll the sublt references in the games suggest that shepard cares more for her. Like the flashback at the end, or how shes always coming to see you in ur room, or the memorial she makes, the plot relevance she has.. it all adds up. She also has the best romance scene by far. I mean, really?

Oh I've read pretty much all the reasons people have.

Some are genuine - such as her getting more attention LI-wise - and these should be directed not at her character or her fans, but to BW and the devs.

On the other hand there are many more 'reasons' which have been contrived out of pure hatred or dislike of her character. The plot-armour point is really a non-argument. It is incredibly difficult to make a plot-driven game where all the plot related dialogue can be killed off. Because Liara hasn't been able to die she is the obvious and most logical choice for pure practical reasons. It would be stupid of BW to re-write and act the plot-relevant lines for a variety of characters who could be dead in any number of playthroughs.

Even then there would be the issue of who would get these lines? Would it make sense for Garrus to be the one researching prothean tech for the Crucible? Not really.

The flashback and her coming to see you have already been addressed. It's simply Biowares laziness. It's not that specifically chose her above other characters but that they chose her because she was the easy option to write for. The flashback is just part BW's ridiculous hashed ending and it's simply an indicator to how much work they put into it - nothing more.

The subtle references? Huh?

And just a quick note but please read my post before replying. I did point out several potential reasons/points you seem to have ignored.

The fact that you dont agree that she has been given favoritism is simply denial. Only a liaramancer would say that.

And dont give me that. Sublte references? How about the fact that almost nothing abd can happen to her in all 3 games? The fact that shepard says: ``Liara`s mine`` to her father. Its imposible to be mean to her In ME2 and barely possible in ME3. She has her own recuitment mission in ME1, a comic series, a DLC, the most dialogue in ME3, the romance thaqt goes throught all 3 games, has the best scene in ME3. Not to mention the flashback, or the fact that shes the most useful squadmate in ME3, or the fact that she can barely die.

Modifié par Olueq, 21 juin 2012 - 09:49 .

[Grimwick]

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

I personally find it ridiculous that Garrus and Tali don't get as much hate as Liara for being writer's pets since they are too.

They are the only characters to be in the squad in all three games and Garrus is one of the characters with the most lines in the entire series (Liara is roughly the same, I suppose). Declaring Liara is a writer's pet because of plot armour is a trite argument seeing as the other characters can only die at very specific points in the series. It is also moot because Garrus ends up with just as much, if not more, content than the other possible kill-able characters. Liara's overuse in ME3 is only really because she is one of the few guaranteed squad-members still available, therefore has a lot of plot-related lines.

Complaints directed at her replacing LIs in the more personal moments shouldn't really be directed at her - it's more BW's fault that they couldn't be bothered to write up the lines rather than them specifically choosing Liara for the scenes.

I get some of the reasons why people are upset but jeez people take their dislike to seriously aggressive and offensive levels here.

Have you not read anything? Theres so much more to it. Her plot armor, DLC, comics, ll the sublt references in the games suggest that shepard cares more for her. Like the flashback at the end, or how shes always coming to see you in ur room, or the memorial she makes, the plot relevance she has.. it all adds up. She also has the best romance scene by far. I mean, really?

Oh I've read pretty much all the reasons people have.

Some are genuine - such as her getting more attention LI-wise - and these should be directed not at her character or her fans, but to BW and the devs.

On the other hand there are many more 'reasons' which have been contrived out of pure hatred or dislike of her character. The plot-armour point is really a non-argument. It is incredibly difficult to make a plot-driven game where all the plot related dialogue can be killed off. Because Liara hasn't been able to die she is the obvious and most logical choice for pure practical reasons. It would be stupid of BW to re-write and act the plot-relevant lines for a variety of characters who could be dead in any number of playthroughs.

Even then there would be the issue of who would get these lines? Would it make sense for Garrus to be the one researching prothean tech for the Crucible? Not really.

The flashback and her coming to see you have already been addressed. It's simply Biowares laziness. It's not that specifically chose her above other characters but that they chose her because she was the easy option to write for. The flashback is just part BW's ridiculous hashed ending and it's simply an indicator to how much work they put into it - nothing more.

The subtle references? Huh?

And just a quick note but please read my post before replying. I did point out several potential reasons/points you seem to have ignored.

The fact that you dont agree that she has been given favoritism is simply denial. Only a liaramancer would say that.

I did actually say that some aspects of her character got better treatment than other characters. I highlighted it for your convenience.

BTW nice debating skills. Good to see everyone can make a valid argument without resorting to ad hominem.

[Terrorize69]

This thread needs more dancing, and unity, dancing and unity.

[Olueq]

Grimwick wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

I personally find it ridiculous that Garrus and Tali don't get as much hate as Liara for being writer's pets since they are too.

They are the only characters to be in the squad in all three games and Garrus is one of the characters with the most lines in the entire series (Liara is roughly the same, I suppose). Declaring Liara is a writer's pet because of plot armour is a trite argument seeing as the other characters can only die at very specific points in the series. It is also moot because Garrus ends up with just as much, if not more, content than the other possible kill-able characters. Liara's overuse in ME3 is only really because she is one of the few guaranteed squad-members still available, therefore has a lot of plot-related lines.

Complaints directed at her replacing LIs in the more personal moments shouldn't really be directed at her - it's more BW's fault that they couldn't be bothered to write up the lines rather than them specifically choosing Liara for the scenes.

I get some of the reasons why people are upset but jeez people take their dislike to seriously aggressive and offensive levels here.

Have you not read anything? Theres so much more to it. Her plot armor, DLC, comics, ll the sublt references in the games suggest that shepard cares more for her. Like the flashback at the end, or how shes always coming to see you in ur room, or the memorial she makes, the plot relevance she has.. it all adds up. She also has the best romance scene by far. I mean, really?

Oh I've read pretty much all the reasons people have.

Some are genuine - such as her getting more attention LI-wise - and these should be directed not at her character or her fans, but to BW and the devs.

On the other hand there are many more 'reasons' which have been contrived out of pure hatred or dislike of her character. The plot-armour point is really a non-argument. It is incredibly difficult to make a plot-driven game where all the plot related dialogue can be killed off. Because Liara hasn't been able to die she is the obvious and most logical choice for pure practical reasons. It would be stupid of BW to re-write and act the plot-relevant lines for a variety of characters who could be dead in any number of playthroughs.

Even then there would be the issue of who would get these lines? Would it make sense for Garrus to be the one researching prothean tech for the Crucible? Not really.

The flashback and her coming to see you have already been addressed. It's simply Biowares laziness. It's not that specifically chose her above other characters but that they chose her because she was the easy option to write for. The flashback is just part BW's ridiculous hashed ending and it's simply an indicator to how much work they put into it - nothing more.

The subtle references? Huh?

And just a quick note but please read my post before replying. I did point out several potential reasons/points you seem to have ignored.

The fact that you dont agree that she has been given favoritism is simply denial. Only a liaramancer would say that.

I did actually say that some aspects of her character got better treatment than other characters. I highlighted it for your convenience.

BTW nice debating skills. Good to see everyone can make a valid argument without resorting to ad hominem.

Lol then what the hell are you arguing about? If you admit bioware favors her over all the characters than what are you even debating? You sound like a butthurt liaramancer thats just mad at people pointing out facts.

Garrus is the only possible exception.

Modifié par Olueq, 21 juin 2012 - 09:53 .

[Grimwick]

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

I did actually say that some aspects of her character got better treatment than other characters. I highlighted it for your convenience.

BTW nice debating skills. Good to see everyone can make a valid argument without resorting to ad hominem.

Lol then what the hell are you arguing about? If you admit bioware fovors her over all the characters than what are you even debating. Im so confused.
You sound like a butthurt liaramancer thats just mad at people pointing out facts.

Garrus is the only possible exception.  

'Some aspects' =/= favours over all other characters.

And if you read what I posted you would notice it was designed to counter-act some of the main arguments against her. I also pointed out that Garrus got a hell of a lot of treatment too but apparently isn't a 'writer's pet'.

EDIT - Oh, resorting to full-out insults now? Stay classy.

Modifié par Grimwick, 21 juin 2012 - 09:54 .

[Terrorize69]

Garrus isn't the writer's pet, he's the writers baby. And everyone loves babies, I mean Garrus...

[Olueq]

Grimwick wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

I did actually say that some aspects of her character got better treatment than other characters. I highlighted it for your convenience.

BTW nice debating skills. Good to see everyone can make a valid argument without resorting to ad hominem.

Lol then what the hell are you arguing about? If you admit bioware fovors her over all the characters than what are you even debating. Im so confused.

'Some aspects' =/= favours over all other characters.

And if you read what I posted you would notice it was designed to counter-act some of the main arguments against her. I also pointed out that Garrus got a hell of a lot of treatment too but apparently isn't a 'writer's pet'.

And I said theres more than just SOME aspects. They add up. Please comprehend what I say next time. Liara is clearly favored. But since ur liaramancer I dont expect you to see that. From my perspective its like talking to a wall.


and lol at you accusing me insulting you, when thats exactly what you are. Stop giving liaramancers a bad name and just stop now.

Modifié par Olueq, 21 juin 2012 - 09:58 .

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

This is how I would rank the characters in terms of being writer's pets. The writer being Mac, of course.

1.) Liara








2.) Garrus (his character)
3.) Earth kid (probably his)
4.) James (his again)
5.) Wrex (his again)
6.) Tali

The rest do not qualify.

Yep, this seems about right. Except for Wrex; I don't see how he would qualify here. He's not a full squadmate post-ME1, can very easily die, and has his involvement mostly confined to his own personal story arc.

Modifié par Mr. Big Pimpin, 21 juin 2012 - 09:58 .

[TaradosGon]

Tali and Garrus aren't necessarily "writer's pets."

Out of the six crew members of ME1, it made sense that two (Ashley and Kaidan) would not join Shepard in ME2, since ME2's story involved Shepard joining Cerberus and being regarded suspiciously by members of the Alliance.

Tali, Garrus, Wrex and Liara were the four that were unaffiliated with the Alliance and that it would still potentially make sense for them to join up with Shepard again. Tali and Garrus do, Liara does only in the DLC and Wrex doesn't.

So, out of 6 potential returning crew:

-Kaidan and Ashley can't (as squad members)
-Tali and Garrus do (regarded as writer's favorites)
-Liara kind of does (but is still regarded as a writer's favorite)
-And Wrex doesn't.

Then in ME3, 5 of those 6 are potential squad mates again.

Pretty much all that would show me (if anything) is that Wrex doesn't get any love.

[Grimwick]

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

I did actually say that some aspects of her character got better treatment than other characters. I highlighted it for your convenience.

BTW nice debating skills. Good to see everyone can make a valid argument without resorting to ad hominem.

Lol then what the hell are you arguing about? If you admit bioware fovors her over all the characters than what are you even debating. Im so confused.

'Some aspects' =/= favours over all other characters.

And if you read what I posted you would notice it was designed to counter-act some of the main arguments against her. I also pointed out that Garrus got a hell of a lot of treatment too but apparently isn't a 'writer's pet'.

And I said theres more than just SOME aspects. They add up. Please comprehend what I say next time. Liara is clearly favored. But since ur liaramancer I dont expect you to see that. From my percpective its like talking to a wall.

I read what you said - it wasn't backed up by any argumentation or evidence at all. In fact, all you did was state it. That doesn't support your claim at all.

And really? Nobody can change their opinion? Well that's funny... I think I just changed mine, of you.

[Olueq]

Grimwick wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

I did actually say that some aspects of her character got better treatment than other characters. I highlighted it for your convenience.

BTW nice debating skills. Good to see everyone can make a valid argument without resorting to ad hominem.

Lol then what the hell are you arguing about? If you admit bioware fovors her over all the characters than what are you even debating. Im so confused.

'Some aspects' =/= favours over all other characters.

And if you read what I posted you would notice it was designed to counter-act some of the main arguments against her. I also pointed out that Garrus got a hell of a lot of treatment too but apparently isn't a 'writer's pet'.

And I said theres more than just SOME aspects. They add up. Please comprehend what I say next time. Liara is clearly favored. But since ur liaramancer I dont expect you to see that. From my percpective its like talking to a wall.

I read what you said - it wasn't backed up by any argumentation or evidence at all. In fact, all you did was state it. That doesn't support your claim at all.

And really? Nobody can change their opinion? Well that's funny... I think I just changed mine, of you.

Lmao, I stated some things that Liara has, that no other squadmate has. How is that NOT evidence? My god, I AM talking to a wall. All Liaramancers cant be like this, can they?

[Ponei]

 This thread needs some more love

[Terrorize69]

TaradosGon wrote...

Tali and Garrus aren't necessarily "writer's pets."

Out of the six crew members of ME1, it made sense that two (Ashley and Kaidan) would not join Shepard in ME2, since ME2's story involved Shepard joining Cerberus and being regarded suspiciously by members of the Alliance.

Tali, Garrus, Wrex and Liara were the four that were unaffiliated with the Alliance and that it would still potentially make sense for them to join up with Shepard again. Tali and Garrus do, Liara does only in the DLC and Wrex doesn't.

So, out of 6 potential returning crew:

-Kaidan and Ashley can't (as squad members)
-Tali and Garrus do (regarded as writer's favorites)
-Liara kind of does (but is still regarded as a writer's favorite)
-And Wrex doesn't.

Then in ME3, 5 of those 6 are potential squad mates again.

Pretty much all that would show me (if anything) is that Wrex doesn't get any love.

You make a great point about Wrex, he must be a closest writers pet

[felipejiraya]

To people that say Liara is Bioware's Pet...



Seriously.

[Olueq]

felipejiraya wrote...

To people that say Liara is Bioware's Pet...



Seriously.

See what I mean? Its only Liara fans that think otherwise.

[Grimwick]

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

I did actually say that some aspects of her character got better treatment than other characters. I highlighted it for your convenience.

BTW nice debating skills. Good to see everyone can make a valid argument without resorting to ad hominem.

Lol then what the hell are you arguing about? If you admit bioware fovors her over all the characters than what are you even debating. Im so confused.

'Some aspects' =/= favours over all other characters.

And if you read what I posted you would notice it was designed to counter-act some of the main arguments against her. I also pointed out that Garrus got a hell of a lot of treatment too but apparently isn't a 'writer's pet'.

And I said theres more than just SOME aspects. They add up. Please comprehend what I say next time. Liara is clearly favored. But since ur liaramancer I dont expect you to see that. From my percpective its like talking to a wall.

I read what you said - it wasn't backed up by any argumentation or evidence at all. In fact, all you did was state it. That doesn't support your claim at all.

And really? Nobody can change their opinion? Well that's funny... I think I just changed mine, of you.

Lmao, I stated some things that Liara has, that no other squadmate has. How is that NOT evidence? My god, I AM talking to a wall. All Liaramancers cant be like this, can they?

Ok so things that Garrus has but Liara doesn't...

90% of ME2 including two missions specifically for him, lines and cut scenes in most other missions, many scenes on the Normandy and the Citadel. In fact he has more of these scenes than Liara. He has several other missions which are heavily related to him also (only 1/2 less than Liara overall).

How about Tali? She has the whole Rannoch arc to herself.

Stating events or scenes that are character specific as evidence of being a favourite isn't substantial evidence. All of the characters have these scenes and Garrus/Liara (+Tali perhaps) both have these in roughly equal quantities. Reasons why liara may have more content in ME3 overall I have outlined before.

Gosh, it's like these hater's cannot be rational and can't remember the whole of ME2... /sarcasm off

[Barquiel]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

This is how I would rank the characters in terms of being writer's pets. The writer being Mac, of course.

1.) Liara








2.) Garrus (his character)
3.) Earth kid (probably his)
4.) James (his again)
5.) Wrex (his again)
6.) Tali

The rest do not qualify.

That's complete nonsense.

BW admitted that Lair of the Shadow Broker was in response to fans being disappointed in Liara’s too-tiny role in ME2. Just compare their original plans for the SB arc (the files are on the ME2 discs) and the DLC.

Walters had stated in multiple interviews that his favorite characters are Garrus, TIM and Aria.

Jack is Casey Hudson's favorite characters as revealed in the CE Strat guide along with several other interviews.

Whose pet is she exactly?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Yep, this seems about right. Except for Wrex; I don't see how he would qualify here. He's not a full squadmate post-ME1, can very easily die, and has his involvement mostly confined to his own personal story arc.

It's subtle (but not very, if you are aware of it). Wrex pushes Mac's anti-politican and liberal diatribes a fair amount in ME3.

[incinerator950]

I believe Liara was stated as Mac's favorite Romance in the game.

[Phydeaux314]

Is Liara's recruitment mission in ME1 bad because it focuses on her?
What about the Quarian/Geth peace mission in ME3? Is that bad because it focuses on Tali and Legion?
How about the entire Tuchanka chain focusing on Wrex and his issues?

A well-designed story is going to have both significant events and appropriate involvement from characters. If the characters don't tie in to the story, they feel very, well, bland and disconnected, and the entire work suffers as a result.

Now, this isn't to say there aren't issues. The non-ME1 romance options really should have had an option for a proper paramour achievement, and a little rendered clip when Shepard is making his/her choice. Those are legitimate complaints that you could direct at the developers, and hopefully something that could be resolved with DLC. But piling hate and vitriol on a character that was fleshed out doesn't really seem like a constructive way to ask for attention to be paid to characters that weren't.

Maybe that's just me.

[RampaXi]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

RampaXi wrote...

why so much hate

THERE ISN'T SHUT UP

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Yep, this seems about right. Except for Wrex; I don't see how he would qualify here. He's not a full squadmate post-ME1, can very easily die, and has his involvement mostly confined to his own personal story arc.

It's subtle (but not very, if you are aware of it). Wrex pushes Mac's anti-politican and liberal diatribes a fair amount in ME3.

Oh. Well, if you were describing "writer's pet" as characters which are specifically favoured and/or has their role influenced by Mac Walters himself, you might want to take Tali off your list then. And probably add TIM and Cerberus.