45 réponses à ce sujet

[Vespasian 91]

The resone I start this topic is because I am comeing up to the point where I pick to keep the anvil of the void or destroy it . This is my Dwarven warden so I want the best out come to happen for the Dwarven people (I'm a Bhelen fan add to that the boon at the end (ask for aid in battling the darkspawn in the Deep Roads) this should be prittey good But I am undecided anvil is it really a good thing to keep at all? heres my thoughts.

We should all know by now what the anvil does and what it costs.

"Branka masters Caridin's technique, learning how to use the Anvil of the Void to create new golems--the first in many centuries. The dwarven people greet this news with cheers, though few know of the cost. At first, King Bhelen works eagerly with Branka to provide subjects--willing or not--so that the golems can push the darkspawn back. This arrangement is not to last, however. Before long, Branka begins to refuse to create golems only for the king, who soon bans use of the Anvil. His men attack Branka's fortress in the Deep Roads, forcing her to shut it tight. Years into the siege, Bhelen is forced to relent. The fortress, guarded by Branka's golems, remains impenetrable."

I'm thinking more along the lines of a few the Dwarves are and the fact that if there is no anvil wouldint Bhelen kill his enims if the anvil is kept he would make them in to golems thus they would still be usefull to the Dwarven people. But also to add that if kept the anvil is worked by a mad paragon.   

And I think most are agreed giveing the anvil to Harrowmont is just bad but it also states in the game that Harrowmont is a great general surliy that has to count for something when defending from the darkspawn with out the anvil.

So Considering we have had no new information about what Orzammar has been up to my thoughts are of DA 3 and the new information I have seen on this forum about golems fighting along side orgs in the dawn of the seeker film, (I haveint seen it myself yet) and that they are controled by boold magic does this mean that the dwarves will have to get rid of all there golems?

So Big wall of text over what are all you'r thoughts?

[EricHVela]

That scenario has a lot of potential for a person to abuse the power of the Anvil.

If the player chooses to let Branka keep the Anvil like you said, a mad Paragon is in control. She is more than willing to sacrifice lives for her own goals. She sent the people of her own house to their deaths on purpose because she wanted to get the Anvil. If we believe Hespith, Branka allowed the women in her group to become Broodmothers because Branka could send the Darkspawn "children" into the traps.

Is this the type of person that we want in charge of any kind of Blood Magic?

That is one question, but there is another question.

Do the benefits of having a Golem army outweigh the risks from Branka using the Anvil?

With Lord Harrowmont on the throne, Branka will use her power of the Anvil to defy him and attack the people on the Surface for her army.

Lord Bhelen is not as aggressive as Lord Harrowmont. Bhelen prefers politics over fighting. Bhelen only fights when there is no other choice. I believe that Branka and her Golems will eventually threaten Bhelen into submission. Using politics will not work against an insane Paragon.

It is possible that Bhelen could gain military support from the Surface people to fight Branka and her golems. I do not believe it will be enough. I believe Bhelen will eventually relent and concede to the demands from Branka.

EDIT: If someone else controlled the Anvil and agreed with Lord Bhelen, it might be good for the Dwarves, but regimes do not last forever. We cannot be certain that a future king or craftsman would care about the Dwarves future. Without the anvil, the Dwarves have only the risk of a bad king without an army of golems for oppression and punishment.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 21 juin 2012 - 05:59 .

[DarkDragon777]

People forget that the Anvil will eventually fall into the hands of another smith.

[Vespasian 91]

So maybe it's best just to destroy the anvil.

[LobselVith8]

It brought 100 years of peace. Caridin's choice to seal away the Anvil condemned countless dwarves to be violated and eaten by the darkspawn. Why destroy a tool that can mean the difference between survival and extinction for the dwarves?

[Vespasian 91]

See this is what I hate I can see both points but I dont know the consequences and they could be so bad.

[LobselVith8]

Honestly, I don't think it's supposed to be an easy choice.

I spared the Anvil because I felt Orzammar could benefit from it. Others have put this choice in better words. From the Caridin or Branka thread:

Koyasha wrote...

Krigwin wrote...

It's an easy choice for me because one of the options is apparently "keep the Anvil around because one day it might be used for good!". In the meantime it'll be under the control of one really crazy dwarf. No thanks, I'll find other ways to defeat evil without resorting to evil. And let's assume that everything goes perfectly and the Anvil really does annihilate all Darkspawn (again, slow-moving defensive unit, never meant to go on the warpath and track down enemies) . What terrible price have we paid? We've reduced our own kind to something like the Darkspawn - soulless and evil, bred only for war. If all we've done to win the war is become our enemy, then we might as well have lost. It's easy, as gamers, to only see the practical side of things but to me this is a moral decision.

The dwarves may reclaim a small portion of territory around Orzammar if they restructure their society and improve, this is true.  However, in the long-term I still believe that the darkspawn would eventually overwhelm them no matter what, without a superior force of some kind, because the darkspawn are better equipped for underground movement and combat, and just as important have a much more efficient means of reproduction.  I strongly believe that any victory would be temporary, given these considerations, barring any unforeseeable developments.

Even if we take it as a given that golems are not highly effective as offensive troops (which I don't entirely agree with, but for the sake of the discussion let's accept it as a hypothetical standpoint) they are still highly effective and efficient garrison troops, used to keep the areas secure after they have been cleared of darkspawn.  It is the difficulty in keeping areas under your control secure that makes the darkspawn a dangerous opponent in the deep roads - it becomes very difficult to maintain a front line, when the darkspawn can circle around or over or under your front line and attack anywhere they want to.  If every region behind the lines is secured by golems, then this is much less of a danger, since even a small golem force will hold off the darkspawn until reinforcements arrive, thus making it difficult for them to do much damage behind your front lines.

I also agree that golems are no guarantee that the deep roads could be retaken and the darkspawn exterminated, but thus far they have proven to be the most effective weapon ever used against the darkspawn, and destroying the only means of creating them seems foolish when we have no guarantee that anything equally effective or superior will ever come along.  You say you will find other ways to defeat evil without resorting to evil, but from a logical standpoint there is no way you could guarantee that.  As far as the concept of winning only to become like our enemy goes, that's an argument that will never take hold with me, because the entire idea of 'that's what makes us better than them' means nothing to me.  It is irrelevant whether we are 'better' than them - only who is still alive at the end is relevant to me.

You are correct in that our perspective is different as gamers, but I feel that cuts both ways.  You believe that the detachment allows us to see the practical side and ignore the morality of the decision - I believe quite the opposite, that the position of doing the 'right thing' is one that tends to primarily come from those who are not directly threatened, and the decision would in no way be an easy choice for you if you were actually in Thedas, being threatened by darkspawn and had faced this opponent and had a personal understanding of the situation.  Of course, we can only argue from what we believe our viewpoints might be, but to claim it an easy choice seems an opinion that can only be held when one is not actually faced with that decision and its true potential consequences.  That is not to say that my decision to keep it around would be easy either, but in the end it seems to have more support from a logical perspective.  Either decision has risks, but the risks of destroying the Anvil would clearly appear to outweigh the risks of keeping it.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 juin 2012 - 07:43 .

[DarkDragon777]

And contrary to popular beliefs, the Dwarves actually do possess functional memories . The lack of the Anvil of the Void led to the events of the Golems of Amgarrak. People tried to replicate Caridin's research and it led to something much more sinister. If the Dwarves possess the Anvil of the Void, things like that are less likely to happen. And if you side with Bhelen and request aid from the surface, all Branka and her golems can do is sit and rot in their fortress while Orzammar reclaims lost thaigs and wait to eventually be repossessed.

[Fallstar]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

And contrary to popular beliefs, the Dwarves actually do possess functional memories . The lack of the Anvil of the Void led to the events of the Golems of Amgarrak. People tried to replicate Caridin's research and it led to something much more sinister. If the Dwarves possess the Anvil of the Void, things like that are less likely to happen. And if you side with Bhelen and request aid from the surface, all Branka and her golems can do is sit and rot in their fortress while Orzammar reclaims lost thaigs and wait to eventually be repossessed.

Whilst the anvil is evil if used on the unwilling for sure, the fact that not being able to use the anvil (a la when Caridin locked it away or if you destroy it) lead to the creation of Harvesters is a great deal more evil. We saw what a single Harvester did to an entire Dwarven expedition in Amgarrak, if more of them are produced by Dwarves desperate to fight off the darkspawn or reclaim their lost thaigs, and they are unable to control them (which seems likely based on what happened at Amgarrak) then far more lives will be lost than if you just let Branka keep the anvil. 

[DarkDragon777]

DuskWarden wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

And contrary to popular beliefs, the Dwarves actually do possess functional memories . The lack of the Anvil of the Void led to the events of the Golems of Amgarrak. People tried to replicate Caridin's research and it led to something much more sinister. If the Dwarves possess the Anvil of the Void, things like that are less likely to happen. And if you side with Bhelen and request aid from the surface, all Branka and her golems can do is sit and rot in their fortress while Orzammar reclaims lost thaigs and wait to eventually be repossessed.

Whilst the anvil is evil if used on the unwilling for sure, the fact that not being able to use the anvil (a la when Caridin locked it away or if you destroy it) lead to the creation of Harvesters is a great deal more evil. We saw what a single Harvester did to an entire Dwarven expedition in Amgarrak, if more of them are produced by Dwarves desperate to fight off the darkspawn or reclaim their lost thaigs, and they are unable to control them (which seems likely based on what happened at Amgarrak) then far more lives will be lost than if you just let Branka keep the anvil. 

My point exactly.

[dragonflight288]

If you support Harrowmont and spare Branka, he uses strictly volunteers for the creation of golems, is able to quell the rebellion against him, and has a successful rule. Branka doesn't rebel, but stagnates under the lack of actual numbers. She sends raiding parties to the surface to gather unwilling humans and elves to be placed on the anvil.

No matter who you support, the anvil is abused with people not willing to volunteer.

[DarkDragon777]

dragonflight288 wrote...

If you support Harrowmont and spare Branka, he uses strictly volunteers for the creation of golems, is able to quell the rebellion against him, and has a successful rule. Branka doesn't rebel, but stagnates under the lack of actual numbers. She sends raiding parties to the surface to gather unwilling humans and elves to be placed on the anvil.

No matter who you support, the anvil is abused with people not willing to volunteer.

Except it's much worse if you support Harrowmont. If you preserve the Anvil and make Harrowmont king, it triggers a short war with Ferelden. And no, sir, Harrowmont does not have a successful rule. Bhelen does, however.

Modifié par DarkDragon777, 23 juin 2012 - 06:13 .

[dragonflight288]

He does have a successful rule according to the codex, only IF we preserve the Anvil. If we don't, then he doesn't.

[DarkDragon777]

dragonflight288 wrote...

He does have a successful rule according to the codex, only IF we preserve the Anvil. If we don't, then he doesn't.

that must explain why if you support Harrowmont and preserve the Anvil, a short war is triggered with Ferelden, he completely demolishes Dust Town to quell rioting, and is likely poisoned. 

[Urzon]

Even if you do spare the Anvil, people are going to look to recreate it the golem making process sooner or later. They aren't going to stop all research on the matter just because they found and reclaimed the Anvil.

The darkspawn threat is ever present, and even with the new golems bolstering the ranks; there are still going to be alot of deaths on the dwarven side. The dwarf shapers/researchers are going to want to expand on the golem making process. They will try and find a way of making them stronger and more durable, making them out of even cheaper parts, and recreate a whole new Anvil. If any because they want one out of Branka's control, or for them to just have another Anvil to create golems on.

In the end.... All signs point to Harvesters.

[TEWR]

Spare it.

And if you're a Dwarf Noble, take umbrage at the fact that you cannot reclaim your name in the Memories and take the throne, as Dwarven history, society, and culture allows and should allow for you.

But yes, spare it. By doing so, you reduce the likelihood of Amgarrak happening again. Golems are not unable to think or speak. Caridin, Shale, and the Nexus Golem are able to do just that and I'm willing to bet that without any control rods Golems can think just fine. Even if speaking is harder for them to do.

Sure, the majority just grunt and snarl. But it's not like they're dead. Maybe physically their bodies are, but their souls are still alive.They suffer pain throughout the ritual to make them, but their soul is still alive. That's why Shale and Caridin remember their past.

Additionally, Wynne and Shale go to Tevinter to look at the possibility of reversing the Golem process. If that's able to be done, then sparing the Anvil becomes the better choice. Because then you have the fighting force you need against the Darkspawn -- plus a united front and Fereldan allies -- and the option for any Golem to choose to reverse the process, if Orzammar's borders can be secured.

I think Bhelen's fault is how he approached Branka after she withdrew contact with the Dwarves and became reclusive.
I'm wondering if she would've been open to negotiation and discussion on the matter.

King Bhelen is basically a repeat of King Valtor, in terms of Golem manufacturing. No one should repeat that. It's what caused Caridin to refuse to make any more and apparently did the same to Branka.

You have to be balanced on that, if such a thing is possible. Provide enough Dwarves to have Golems against the Darkspawn -- maybe explain to them how it benefits not only society as a whole, but themselves -- but don't become greedy to the point where you're blind to what this may do to public perception of you. 

And also to the point that you're blind to what this will do to the person that's quite obviously performing a task that is mentally, spiritually, and psychologically taxing.

That is probably Bhelen's greatest flaw as a King. He's so determined to push back the Darkspawn that he wasn't considering things from Branka's point of view, and it lost him one of his greatest assets.

Finally, with Amgarrak's research notes -- on the Runic Golems -- this will end up reducing how many Golems need be made. With Golems on the front lines that function as mages as well, you can (in theory/an ideal society) not need to create so many.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this -- inside the Primeval Thaig under Kirkwall, you fight Golems. Which points to one of two things for me:

1) The Primeval Thaig Dwarves had a way to create Golems just like Caridin did, and Caridin found a similar method rather then him having made it himself

2) Those ancient tales about Golems that he based his work off of are a part of the Primeval Thaig's history, especially regarding Golems.

And I mean inside the PT itself. You fight two inside and one like.... 20 feet from the entrance.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 juin 2012 - 06:55 .

[dragonflight288]

that must explain why if you support Harrowmont and preserve the
Anvil, a short war is triggered with Ferelden, he completely demolishes
Dust Town to quell rioting, and is likely poisoned. 

Not that I'm arguing with you but when does that happen? When I played through my dwarven noble, helped Harrowmont and spared the anvil, nothing of the sort happened, not even in the epilogue. The epilogue specifically stated that he put down Bhelen's rebellion and was popular among the assembly.

He cut off almost all trade with the surface and the caste divide between nobles and other castes widened. And when he passed a law that bans casteless from the Commons, they riot and that's what destroys Dust Town. No war with Ferelden ever happened.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Epilogue_%28Origins%29

So when is the war?

I admit his rule isn't flawless, and it would suck to be castelss under Harrowmont, but he does have a successful rule as far as working with the Assembly goes if the anvil is spared.

[DarkDragon777]

dragonflight288 wrote...


Not that I'm arguing with you but when does that happen? When I played through my dwarven noble, helped Harrowmont and spared the anvil, nothing of the sort happened, not even in the epilogue. The epilogue specifically stated that he put down Bhelen's rebellion and was popular among the assembly.

He cut off almost all trade with the surface and the caste divide between nobles and other castes widened. And when he passed a law that bans casteless from the Commons, they riot and that's what destroys Dust Town. No war with Ferelden ever happened.


So when is the war?

I admit his rule isn't flawless, and it would suck to be castelss under Harrowmont, but he does have a successful rule as far as working with the Assembly goes if the anvil is spared.

Read again. If you side with Branka and make Harrowmont king, he soon refuses to give Branka more subjects for the Anvil, which leads Branka to start kidnapping subjects from the surface, which triggers a short war with Ferelden.

How can you say he had a successful rule? The only people he pleases are in the Assembly. He cuts off trade and destroys dust town, and triggers a war with the surface unintentionally. How is that even reminiscent of a good leader? Bhelen makes him look like a piece of sh*t.

[dragonflight288]

Re reading and replaying the game, I must concede that I was wrong about the war with Ferelden.

Personality wise, Harrowmont is better than Bhelen, personal politics results....Bhelen is better.

I admit I was wrong.

[BigBad]

Branka is nug**** insane.
Harrowmont is a weak leader who substitutes compromise for strength and prefers to appease conservative elements to maintain the status quo.
Bhelen is a ruthless, powerhungry tyrant who majored in political intrigue and minored in kinslaying. Also, he is a pimp.

Absolutely none of these candidates are ideal for possession of one of the most powerful enchanted artifacts in Thedas. Not a single one of them presents any hope whatsoever that they will use that power responsibly and intelligently (Both, that is. Bhelen would certainly use it intelligently, and Harrowmont responsibly, but neither will do both.)

[LobselVith8]

BigBad wrote...

Absolutely none of these candidates are ideal for possession of one of the most powerful enchanted artifacts in Thedas. Not a single one of them presents any hope whatsoever that they will use that power responsibly and intelligently (Both, that is. Bhelen would certainly use it intelligently, and Harrowmont responsibly, but neither will do both.)

Harrowmont doesn't use it responsibly, as the fate of Dust Town attests to, but he's a bigoted fool who doesn't belong on the throne in the first place. Now, Bhelen may not be a nice guy, but he gives the casteless more freedoms, expands trade with the surface, and reclaims lost thaigs. Why not allow Bhelen to utilize the golems to help against a foe that immensely outnumbers them, especially since the dwarves fight the darkspawn without aid from the surface (for the most part, save for possibly Ferelden under specific circumstances)? The darkspawn need to be stopped, no matter the cost.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 juin 2012 - 08:50 .

[LobselVith8]

BigBad wrote...

Branka is nug**** insane.

She wants golems to defeat darkspawn, so I don't see why one should destroy a weapon that can save Orzammar from destruction simply because Branka is obsessed, and the Anvil allowed the dwarves to beat back the first Archdemon, Dumat, and allowed 100 years of peace.

[DarkDragon777]

dragonflight288 wrote...



Personality wise, Harrowmont is better than Bhelen
 

How so? Not that it really matters...

[BigBad]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BigBad wrote...

Branka is nug**** insane.

She wants golems to defeat darkspawn, so I don't see why one should destroy a weapon that can save Orzammar from destruction simply because Branka is obsessed, and the Anvil allowed the dwarves to beat back the first Archdemon, Dumat, and allowed 100 years of peace.

Wanting golems to beat back the darkspawn is not what makes her insane. The crazy woman fed her entire house to darkspawn (i.e. betraying every single one of them to death or worse) and even purposely allowed females (including her own lover) to be turned into broodmothers to birth more darkspawn. Obviously, she doesn't really have strong opinions on the darkspawn. She has strong opinions on Orzammar's decline, which is something that can't be magically fixed with an army of giant stone slaves.

The only way you can save the Anvil is to let Branka take custody of it, and it basically becomes her personal possession. Not even Bhelen could take it away from her in the epilogue cards. The anvil is basically the dwarven version of blood magic: "really powerful and useful, but hey, it requires human sacrifice and eternal enslavement and all it's gonna do is feed the whims and egos of the powerful and insane."