45 réponses à ce sujet

[ThatGamerWithSouvlaki285]

Logan Cloud wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...



Personality wise, Harrowmont is better than Bhelen
 

How so? Not that it really matters...

Because Bhelen is a butthurt child, who arrogantly assumes that he's the best candidate for a king, even though the king himself hated the idea, and refused to give him the position.

True but the epilough paints him as a better ruler than harrowmont. Horrowmont isolates the dwarves from the rest of thedes and any support for fighting the darkspaws. While Bhelen opens trade with the outside world and loosens caste restriction and gives more benifits to the castless. From that one bhelen boast seem to be well justified.

Modifié par steph285, 24 juin 2012 - 09:07 .

[LobselVith8]

BigBad wrote...

Wanting golems to beat back the darkspawn is not what makes her insane. The crazy woman fed her entire house to darkspawn (i.e. betraying every single one of them to death or worse) and even purposely allowed females (including her own lover) to be turned into broodmothers to birth more darkspawn. Obviously, she doesn't really have strong opinions on the darkspawn. She has strong opinions on Orzammar's decline, which is something that can't be magically fixed with an army of giant stone slaves.

My point was that Branka wants to defeat the darkspawn, regardless of her sanity. It's the reason why she destroyed her House; it's the reason why dwarven society us in a decline. Leaving the dwarves without a tool that could turn the tide against the darkspawn doesn't sit well with me when the alternative is to leave them with nothing because Bhelen isn't nice or because Branka is morally bankrupt. It's about the Anvil possibly meaning the difference in the fight against the greatest threat that Thedas faces.

BigBad wrote...

The only way you can save the Anvil is to let Branka take custody of it, and it basically becomes her personal possession. Not even Bhelen could take it away from her in the epilogue cards. The anvil is basically the dwarven version of blood magic: "really powerful and useful, but hey, it requires human sacrifice and eternal enslavement and all it's gonna do is feed the whims and egos of the powerful and insane."

Blood magic doesn't require human sacrifice, so your analogy doesn't really fit. Regardless, it was potent enough to deal with an Archdemon; to provide 100 years of peace; I think it's too important to sacrifice.

[DarkDragon777]

Can someone tell me how the Anvil uses blood magic? never really picked up on that...

[LobselVith8]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Can someone tell me how the Anvil uses blood magic? never really picked up on that...

Actually, The Warden can say, "Sounds like blood magic. A dangerous road."

[TEWR]

BigBad wrote...

[Wanting golems to beat back the darkspawn is not what makes her insane. The crazy woman fed her entire house to darkspawn (i.e. betraying every single one of them to death or worse) and even purposely allowed females (including her own lover) to be turned into broodmothers to birth more darkspawn

To be fair, it's not as if she just handed them over to the Darkspawn. She tells you that many of them came back to her tainted and dying after they ran away from her, wanting no more part in her plans to get the Anvil because they thought all that awaited them going forward was death.

The men were dying, but she saw that the females were changing into broodmothers. And sure, she could've been merciful and killed them all, but she was hoping that by using the Darkspawn-to-be as cannon fodder, she could eventually disable Caridin's traps by sheer numbers alone and acquire the Anvil.

Not that it justifies or excuses her actions, but it does make them less evil. Still evil, but not as much as if she'd just handed her whole house over to the Darkspawn prior to them being tainted.

And though that was her reasoning for it and it is sound in theory, I take issue with it for two reasons:

1) I would hope she would at least dedicate a memorial to her house that made the reacquisition of the Anvil possible, so that she was earnest in having their deaths be given meaning.

2) I don't think that she could've easily taken the Anvil as she thought, by that method alone. She would've had to kill swarms of Darkspawn and a broodmother on her own just to ensure no more Darkspawn would be immediately on her ass. Then she'd have to kill the ones that were still alive in the Anvil area and pray that they didn't destroy the Anvil itself.

. Obviously, she doesn't really have strong opinions on the darkspawn. She has strong opinions on Orzammar's decline, which is something that can't be magically fixed with an army of giant stone slaves.

Arguable. One golem is worth a dozen Dwarves in battle. Those dozen Dwarves that don't have to battle could then go on to sire 12 children of their own. Then those 12 kids would go on to have kids of their own and so on and so forth.

And who knows? By getting Golems back, it might cause surface Dwarves to return home if they left because they thought Orzammar was doomed.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2012 - 12:08 .

[dragonflight288]

But to the chantry, anything involving blood, even research into anatomy, sounds like blood magic.

[BigBad]

I call shenanigans on this 'one golem is equal to 12 dwarves in battle' thing. Having played all the way through both DA games and all related DLC (including GoA for DA:O), I have to say that while golems are definitely tough buggers, they're hardly an unstoppable army considering the number that the Warden and Hawke destroy.

Also, I can't possibly imagine any surface dwarves would ever want to return to Orzammar, since, ya know, they're now considered casteless and would have to wear the brand just to set foot in the Commons.

[dragonflight288]

The only way the dwarves on the surface could return to Orzammar and not be casteless is if they went to the surface on the king's errand, like providing military aid to Ferelden during the Blight, or Dwarkin and his brother being sent to help the Warden rebuild Amaranthine as a way to repay the debt incurred by the Warden putting the King on the throne.

[TEWR]

BigBad wrote...

I call shenanigans on this 'one golem is equal to 12 dwarves in battle' thing. Having played all the way through both DA games and all related DLC (including GoA for DA:O), I have to say that while golems are definitely tough buggers, they're hardly an unstoppable army considering the number that the Warden and Hawke destroy.

Gameplay =/= lore.

Also, I can't possibly imagine any surface dwarves would ever want to return to Orzammar, since, ya know, they're now considered casteless and would have to wear the brand just to set foot in the Commons.

Not with Bhelen -- or a Dwarf Noble that has the same ideas on reform (possibly came up with them before Bhelen ever did) -- on the throne, I imagine.

My anger at the lack of becoming king of the short, fuzzy, cave-dwelling people knows no bounds!

But yes, with Bhelen on the throne I think the surface Dwarves would return to Orzammar.

Fact: Bhelen gives casteless greater rights in exchange for services provided against the Darkspawn
Fact: Returning Surface Dwarves would come back as casteless under normal kings.
Logical conclusion: Surface Dwarves returning home would receive greater rights then they would've had under kings like Endrin or Harrowmont.

I'm not saying ALL of the surface Dwarves would flock back -- some left because of fighting the Darkspawn constantly (Dwyn) -- but I do think it's a possibility that some would return. Especially those that were casteless to begin with when they left Orzammar.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2012 - 02:17 .

[BigBad]

Bhelen grants the casteless certain rights in exchange for service (he's not doing this out of concern for the casteless, remember, but because they are underutilized resources and he's too pragmatic to ignore them), sure.

He does not, however, restore caste to those who have been stripped of it, and it's entirely likely that he does not have that power. It would require, at the very least, a passing vote in the Assembly (problematic, with Bhelen's support eroding with his reforms), and the cooperation of the Shaperate (i.e. the most archconservative dwarves in the city, who will tell a duster Warden that they aren't actually a dwarf.)

Also, completely ignoring how difficult or easy it was to destroy a golem in gameplay terms, the fact remains that Hawke and the Warden both canonically destroy more than a handful of golems each and it is never considered a particularly noteworthy deed. And while Hawke's feats may be prone to some exaggeration due to the narrative framework, the Warden suffers no such obfuscation.

[Fallstar]

BigBad wrote...

I call shenanigans on this 'one golem is equal to 12 dwarves in battle' thing. Having played all the way through both DA games and all related DLC (including GoA for DA:O), I have to say that while golems are definitely tough buggers, they're hardly an unstoppable army considering the number that the Warden and Hawke destroy.

The Warden and Hawke are from average individuals. Either of them is probably more than the equal of 12 dwarves in battle, so the fact that you can kill them fairly easily doesn't diminish the Golem's abilities.

In Origins we normally fight golems where they are heavily outnumbered too, with the exception of the Caridin fight, where you have a high level, well equipped party where you have tailored their stats to be effective. Consider the fight in Golems of Amgrarrak where you fight 6 golems at once, 4 boss level and 2 lietenant. And your party basically sucks. That fight was extremely challenging. Imagine the damage those golems could cause if you just plonked them down and told them to hold the line in the Deep Roads. I bet they'd take close to a hundred darkspawn out before being overwhelmed. 

So in my opinion they are just as effective in game as in lore. My Warden as a human noble saved the anvil as even the small contingent of golems you get in the final batle are useful. In fact, if you want to see the effectiveness of golems in game, summon the golems in the Archdemon fight. They were the only army I summoned, and two of the four survived. Whilst you can kill the AD easily without summoning any armies, your Warden doesn't know that, as far as you're concerned you need all the help you can get.

If you're a dwarf, you have even more motivation to save the anvil. Many of the casteless of Kal'Hirol gave their lives to expediate the noble's escape attempt. If it came to it, how many of them in Orzammar would willingly give their lives to become Golems and defend their city? Especially with Bhelen as king, who would probably offer them some sort of recognition for doing so, giving worth to lives which the casteless themselves generally accept as worthless. 

The anvil holds so much potential to give the Dwarves a fighting chance. It could be the factor which decides whether or not they survive as a species. It surprises me when people are willing to simply destroy that.

BigBad wrote...

Also, completely ignoring how difficult or easy it was to destroy a golem in gameplay terms, the fact remains that Hawke and the Warden both canonically destroy more than a handful of golems each and it is never considered a particularly noteworthy deed. And while Hawke's feats may be prone to some exaggeration due to the narrative framework, the Warden suffers no such obfuscation.

 

As I said, think about the golem fight with the 6 golems in GoA. People were complaining on the forums that they couldn't progress past that point even on casual difficulty. That fight is harder on nightmare than the Harvester itself. Whilst each individual golem isn't an elite boss class enemy and the sort of thing you get recognition for, a small group of them becomes a very deadly opponent.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 25 juin 2012 - 03:00 .

[BigBad]

DuskWarden wrote...

If you're a dwarf, you have even more motivation to save the anvil. Many of the casteless of Kal'Hirol gave their lives to expediate the noble's escape attempt. If it came to it, how many of them in Orzammar would willingly give their lives to become Golems and defend their city? Especially with Bhelen as king, who would probably offer them some sort of recognition for doing so, giving worth to lives which the casteless themselves generally accept as worthless. 

The anvil holds so much potential to give the Dwarves a fighting chance. It could be the factor which decides whether or not they survive as a species. It surprises me when people are willing to simply destroy that.

My dwarf Warden couldn't destroy it fast enough. Being a casteless brand from Dust Town, he had absolutely no illusions about exactly who would be 'volunteered' for this painful sacrifice with a side of eternal enslavement.

And let's not forget that it's enslavement. Golems don't just walk around with free will, like Shale. Control rods were pretty much the only part of the golem process that was swiftly reinvented once the Anvil was lost, seeing as how Shale was re-enslaved after fighting with Carridin. Not a single dwarf in Orzammar treats golems like people instead of magical rock robots.

[TEWR]

BigBad wrote...

Bhelen grants the casteless certain rights in exchange for service (he's not doing this out of concern for the casteless, remember, but because they are underutilized resources and he's too pragmatic to ignore them), sure.

He does not, however, restore caste to those who have been stripped of it, and it's entirely likely that he does not have that power.

I wasn't claiming he'd give Surface Dwarves their original caste back.

I was claiming that he'd give Surface Dwarves that return to Orzammar greater rights then they woudl've had under any other King of Orzammar, had they returned.

Yes they're being used as soldiers in the army, but it gives them a chance to prove their worth. If they prove themselves as capable warriors that won't betray other Dwarves like Orzammar society believes to be the case, then it strenghtens the argument to reform caste policies.

Just look at what happened with Kal-Hirol's memorial carving where the casteless of Kal-Hirol were immortalized as Warrior Caste, just for fighting the Darkspawn.

The same thing can happen here. Casteless families could rise up to Warrior Caste just for successfully fighting the Darkspawn. Casteless families could theoretically become Smith Caste, if they helped to maintain decent weapons and armor.

And so on and so forth.

 

BigBad wrote...
Also, completely ignoring how difficult or easy it was to destroy a golem in gameplay terms, the fact remains that Hawke and the Warden both canonically destroy more than a handful of golems each and it is never considered a particularly noteworthy deed. And while Hawke's feats may be prone to some exaggeration due to the narrative framework, the Warden suffers no such obfuscation.

I'm gonna have to go with what DuskWarden said above.

Additionally, for DAII I blame the severe gameplay balance issues for how easy it is to defeat Golems.

Plus, you can't argue with the lore. The lore very clearly states that when Golems were around, no Dwarf had to sacrifice themselves to the Darkspawn -- yes, yes the Dwarves were still in a way sacrificing themselves to the Darkspawn, but that's not my point.

The Golems provided 100 years of peace.

BigBad wrote...

 Not a single dwarf in Orzammar treats golems like people instead of magical rock robots.

Most Dwarves don't actually know the cost of what it actually takes to make a Golem, aside from very scant details. That information was only known to Kings and the Anvil workers themselves.

Even the Shaperate only had rumors to go off of on how Golems were made.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2012 - 02:59 .

[BigBad]

Okay, why would surface dwarves want to return to Orzammar at all? It makes no sense. They'd be casteless, spit on and scorned by virtually all of their former peers. They'd be totally reliant upon the throne to make a living or eke out a miserable existence in Dust Town.

Most dwarves on the surface are pretty well-off. You don't run into any peasant farmer dwarves, and even the criminals tend to be pretty well-connected. On the surface, they have total freedom, a natural tie to a disproportionately wealthy segment of the population, and absolutely no discrimination worth mentioning. In Orzammar, they'd be sucking Bhelen's teat or begging and cleaning middens.

[TEWR]

BigBad wrote...

Okay, why would surface dwarves want to return to Orzammar at all? It makes no sense. They'd be casteless, spit on and scorned by virtually all of their former peers. They'd be totally reliant upon the throne to make a living or eke out a miserable existence in Dust Town.

It's known that Bhelen provides greater rights to casteless in exchange for assistance against the Darkspawn.

A Dwarf that returns to Orzammar is casteless. Under any other king, that's where they'd stay forever. Under Bhelen, that's not the case. Under Bhelen, they have a chance to ascend past being casteless and become Warriors. They may see it as an opportunity worth taking.

I'm saying it's possible to happen. Because it is. Whether one wants to consider it relying on the throne is up to personal views, but it's possible to happen.

Most dwarves on the surface are pretty well-off.

You see Dwarves in Lowtown, which is regarded as one of the worst areas of Kirkwall -- Darktown being the worst.

Sure, you see Dwarves in Hightown, but they're a part of the Merchant's Guild. Most of them actually remember Orzammar's culture and keep track of it, using that as part of a basis for their guild. Dwarves like Varric were either A) born topside or born in Orzammar then came to the surface soon afterwards.

I think given the opportunity, the Merchant's Guild would return to Orzammar to help the Dwarves there have even more money by using their knowledge on investments and related things, given that most of them value the place they came from despite not currently living there.

Hell, they may even contact Bhelen about establishing a residency there and connections to assist the city but say they prefer to live on the surface, wherein they regain their Merchant Caste status. Given what we currently know of Bhelen's policies and reforms, I can see this -- or something similar -- as happening. 

We know that Voldrik and Dworkin were sent by the king's authority and they don't seem to have become surface Dwarves. It seems that by carrying out the King's orders on the surface you retain your caste.

No reason that a Dwarf couldn't contact Bhelen to regain their caste and carry out things that benefit Orzammar, wherein they retain it.

You don't run into any peasant farmer dwarves

That you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist.

and even the criminals tend to be pretty well-connected.

Those are the remnants of Jarvia's Carta. They moved to the surface after the events in Orzammar in DAO, because they could no longer control the city. They didn't have unified leadership.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2012 - 03:53 .

[BigBad]

It becomes pretty clear in DAII that the Carta is a very popular catspaw of the Dwarven Merchant's Guild. And they're still better off than trying to make it in Dust Town. Dust Town sucks, and all the people there live lives that make elven alienages look like utopian wonderlands.

Dwarves on the surface have more or less done what most historical immigrant ethnicities do: band together for familiarity, build a community based at least partially on the values of the old, and support each other in the face of the new and alien. And work -hard- to make sure that they are better off than they would be if they had stayed home. Surface dwarves are in nearly every way better off than anyone in Orzammar without a caste, no matter what 'rights' Bhelen may grant them in exchange for being drafted. Casteless in Orzammar are not like black people in pre-Civil Rights Era America. They are like Dalits during the height of the Hindu caste system.

By definition, Voldrik and Dworkin are casteless surface dwarves, being that they live and work on the surface, and the DA Wiki bears that out (for what that's worth).

[TEWR]

Agree to disagree on the possibility of surface dwarves returning to Orzammar.

As for this:

BigBad wrote...

By definition, Voldrik and Dworkin are casteless surface dwarves, being that they live and work on the surface, and the DA Wiki bears that out (for what that's worth).

The definition we have is that Dwarves that left Orzammar of their own volition were stripped of their caste.

But Voldrik and Dworkin left not of their own volition, but by the King's decree. As such, we don't necessarily know whether they're stripped of their caste or not. But I think that since their king told them to go, they don't lose their caste.

I mean, you have the Guards outside of Orzammar that are technically on the surface, but they're serving the kings/queens/deshyrs of Orzammar and they don't lose their caste.

So despite the codex saying that "any dwarf that sets foot on the surface forfeits their caste", it seems that if you're serving the interests of Orzammar you don't lose your caste, no matter where you're stationed.

[BigBad]

I seem to remember Voldrik saying something about having left Orzammar before being sent to Vigil's Keep, but I can't be bothered to go play through the first hour or two of Awakening for a single point of lore.

[TEWR]

As I recall, Dworkin says that King Bhelen personally sent them (if Bhelen was put on the throne. Haven't done a Harrowmont run in eons).

[dragonflight288]

Dworkin told me King Harrowmont personally sent them.

[LobselVith8]

BigBad wrote...

My dwarf Warden couldn't destroy it fast enough. Being a casteless brand from Dust Town, he had absolutely no illusions about exactly who would be 'volunteered' for this painful sacrifice with a side of eternal enslavement.

With Bhelen as King, it's volunteers and his political enemies. Golems beat back the first Archdemon, Dumat - they are viewed as important for a reason.

BigBad wrote...

And let's not forget that it's enslavement. Golems don't just walk around with free will, like Shale. Control rods were pretty much the only part of the golem process that was swiftly reinvented once the Anvil was lost, seeing as how Shale was re-enslaved after fighting with Carridin. Not a single dwarf in Orzammar treats golems like people instead of magical rock robots.

Caridin thought the same way, and condemned countless dwarves to be eaten and women to be violated by the darkspawn. Only two Great Thaigs remain. If golems mean the difference against the darkspawn - who have overrun all the dwarven kingdoms save for two, spanning the entire continent of Thedas - then I see the golems as a necessity.