696 réponses à ce sujet

[hippojoe]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

yeah, what's going on is that the harder the difficulty, the harder it is to get through a game without a good class (like the infiltrators)

you look at it as more people play infiltrators on gold, but reallys its less people use the underpowered classes on gold because it is too difficult.

like other people have said, maybe try buffing the weak classes and more people will use them.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Blind2Society wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

You're seriously thinking about nerfing TC rather than buffing other classes?

The amount of facepalm required here simply does not exist.

Did you ever stop to think that a lot of people play infiltrators more because you did something right with them and did something wrong with the other classes? No, I guess that escaped your attention.

I play all the classes I like equally on gold and that includes my infiltrator. If you guys nerf TC and don't make headshots bypass shieldgate I may just have to kiss this game goodbye.

I wonder if you got to the part where he mentions they must have done something well with Cloak and he's glad we like it, before you went off in a strop...

[PossibleCabbage]

I think I can take as evidence for "tac cloak being overpowered" the sheer number of people who argue that it shouldn't be changed at all. These are people who are playing infiltators because they are incredibly powerful compared to other classes. If you're playing an infiltrator because you like sniping, you absolutely understand that the skill could be made a little less powerful, and you'd still have fun with the class. Towards this end, you'd probably want to suggest how Tactical Cloak could be made less powerful, while still leaving the infiltrator fun to play and useful.

Modifié par PossibleCabbage, 22 juin 2012 - 12:12 .

[Atheosis]

Chris Schanche wrote...

There was discussion a long time ago about Cryo Blast not actually causing armor debuff. It was all conjecture since I don't think anyone wanted to really spend the time data mining it.

If that's changed, or if I'm in error, I'll certainly take back my argument about not doing anything to armored enemies. That said, I don't believe it's actually working as intended.

And in addition, you're quite right that other powers add the same debuffs while also doing a heck of a lot more on top of that.

But yes... *deep breath* Looking forward to running tests on the cryo blast.

I ran a few checks to confirm things for you folks.  Cryo Blast is correctly applying both its damage bonuses, as well as its armor reduction bonuses.  Giving it some level of damage bonus against normal enemies, and a more substantial one in most cases against armored targets.  I confirmed for you folks that its providing its damage bonus evolutions against unarmored targets as well as armored targets.

I compared with other powers as well, Cryo Blast can provide you a 25% damage bonus, before adding in armor weakness.  Warp provides a 15% damage bonus, before adding in armor weakness.  Cryo Blast may not be a point maker, but it certainly provides some strong utility to your team.

Happy hunting!

Warp also allows you to blow stuff up.  As does Proximity Mine.  Oh and Tactical Scan can't be dodged.  Come on Chris.

[holdenagincourt]

Razerath wrote...

holdenagincourt wrote...

Razerath wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

Mess with TCloak too much and you'll lose this player right here.

The reason people are still using the Infiltrator is obviously because of it's damage output. The problem is that it is already fairly balanced considering the health and shields Infiltrators get. But when you add something like the Krysae...

Just make sure that no matter what you do, only nerf rank 6 damage. Ok? It's the only trouble spot. Otherwise you're going to mess with perfectly decent builds like the GPS/Claymore/Saber/Melee.

I mostly use my infillys as support in gold. I take duration in rank 4 of TC with most of them, for instance, and take bonus power on my QFI for mobile Sabotages as I relocate. If there's already another infilly on the team I'll use something else, but I just like to have at least one infilly on a gold team for objectives and keeping everyone alive. The damage output is still great, but secondary to that supporting role.

You are not using TCloak on gold like most of the 33.6% of people are. And I have never actually witnessed someone using TCloak in just the way you described. It's not in line for a debuff because of it's secondary support role.

I get that you can use it to be a medic or get objectives but I can spec a Kroguard to do that too.

Yeah...most infiltrators are specced for maximum damage output. I get what you're saying. I was just adding my perspective as someone whose second favorite class is infiltrator, who uses infiltrators regularly, but does so with an eye squarely to support the team. 

[Mozts]

 Hey people, how about a new sniper?

[Jay Leon Hart]

DeathIsHere wrote...

Jay Leon Hart wrote...

JLoco11 wrote...
Why would I use a Turian Sentinel meatshield, who can't detonate a biotic, avoid a fireball or do an upload without getting picked up, when I get take an invisible Geth and see enemies across the map.  Fact is tactical cloak isn't overpowered, it's that other classes are at a disadvantage.

Why would you use one of the most versatile classes in the game on the hardest setting? Gee, I wonder why... oh, and he can detonate biotics, since Warp is both a biotic primer and detonator. If Cloak isn't overpowered, everything else is just at a disadvantage, then Claok must have an advantage, so it's more powerful than everything else... what?

Being more powerful =/= Overpowered. Don't know what gave you that assumption. Overpowered would mean it's so powerful it's unfair. TC does need a slight nerf, but I get the feeling this will be more than a slight nerf. They need to focus on bringing things UP to Gold level, rather than nerfing infiltrators out of Gold.

Good job I never said it was overpowered then, eh?  I was just pointing out the lack of logical progression in their last sentence.

[Master Xanthan]

Jay Leon Hart wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

You're seriously thinking about nerfing TC rather than buffing other classes?

The amount of facepalm required here simply does not exist.

Did you ever stop to think that a lot of people play infiltrators more because you did something right with them and did something wrong with the other classes? No, I guess that escaped your attention.

I play all the classes I like equally on gold and that includes my infiltrator. If you guys nerf TC and don't make headshots bypass shieldgate I may just have to kiss this game goodbye.

I wonder if you got to the part where he mentions they must have done something well with Cloak and he's glad we like it, before you went off in a strop...

I don't see the post where he says he's glad we liked it. You'll have to link me to it.

[Atheosis]

PossibleCabbage wrote...

I think I can take as evidence for "tac cloak" being overpowered the sheer number of people who argue that it shouldn't be changed at all. These are people who are playing infiltators because they are incredibly powerful compared to other classes. If you're playing an infiltrator because you like sniping, you absolutely understand that the skill could be made a little less powerful, and you'd still have fun with the class. Towards this end, you'd probably want to suggest how Tactical Cloak could be made less powerful, while still leaving the infiltrator fun to play and useful.

The absurdly fast speed runs would also seem to indicate overpowredness, at least in the case of GI's.

[Techo Angel]

Edolix wrote...

*Gasp* The turret may actually be useful now!

Same with the Drone!

[Pugz82]

PossibleCabbage wrote...

I think I can take as evidence for "tac cloak" being overpowered the sheer number of people who argue that it shouldn't be changed at all. These are people who are playing infiltators because they are incredibly powerful compared to other classes. If you're playing an infiltrator because you like sniping, you absolutely understand that the skill could be made a little less powerful, and you'd still have fun with the class. Towards this end, you'd probably want to suggest how Tactical Cloak could be made less powerful, while still leaving the infiltrator fun to play and useful.

I play ALL classes on gold...I have a hard enough time completing PUG's as it is.  The other classes should get buffed instead of this, it is silly.  All the pros here should beg BW to nerf it in the campain as well...sure that nice TC helped get a lot of asses through Insanity.

Oh wait...nvm, I forgot about the Pro NovaGuards.

[vonSlash]

Today's buffs are great news, especially the Viper buff.

I'm also happy to see that TacCloak is getting nerfed after the event ends...however, would you please buff the Locust? After this week's buffs, it's the only gun left in the armory that is still weak to the point of being unusable.

[Cundu_Ertur]

MartialArtsSurfer wrote...

1) just make TC actually affected by weight, regardless of how long cloak is used

2& 4) make throwing grenades or any other power deactivate cloak
just like firing a shot does. This makes the 'bonus power' evolution at
tier 6 actually useful as it was meant to be

3) keep the tier 6 40% sniper bonus to encourage sniper usage & going deep in cloak,
the class signature power --other classes have 50%-100% additive damage bonuses on their tier 6 final evolution

Agree. But also maybe a buff for the tanks' shields on gold. Lack of mobility for batarians, turians, and krogans isn't matched with survivability on gold. They die as quick as anyone else -- more quickly since they can't manuever as well.

[saxybeast418]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Razerath wrote...

saxybeast418 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

This is very interesting. If tactical cloak was really the source of the problem, wouldn't the overuse of infiltrators be across all difficulties instead primarily Gold (and to a lesser extent Silver)?

Perhaps I'm misreading the data, but this seems to indicate not that Infiltrators are overperforming, but that the other classes are underperforming.

+1 Eric please reply to this! I'd like to know your opinion on why Infiltrators shine on Gold.

Is it because TCloak can provide ( combined with the right weapons ) the best way to beat Gold and farm some credits?

Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

I think that we are on the same page on this.

Alas, in a perfect world, it sounds like you guys would be happy to bring all of those other abilities up to the level of tactical cloak, not to mention fix all of the bugs and lag issues in a quick manner! I've got a lot of sympathy for Bioware, as not much can be done about lack of resources/manpower.

That's life, I suppose.

I guess all I can reasonably ask for is some caution. Tactical cloak's power comes from its synergy with most of the other elements of the game: its whole is far greater than the sum of its parts. By extension, properly balancing TC requires careful examination of its interaction with the rest of the game mechanics. A balance tweak that would be minor on any other power could make tactical cloak too weak and frustrating to use.

In short: balance is a worthy goal, but not if it requires you to sacrifice satisfaction and fun.

[Rodrrigoww]

People use infiltrators cause most classes are useless if compared to the good higher tier ones.Anyways turian soldier , no matter how you put it , suck , krogans maybe except for the guard suck, batarian sentinel suck , sure some of you will come claimig otherwise with vids n' s*** but i don't really care , game is not filled with the people who takes the game as seriously as ppl in this forum , thus 90% of them suck with krogans , turian soldier , most vanguards , drells , batsent , hell even vorcha which is an awesome class etc.
Infis are an accessible class , well anyways , now we can say good bye to our black widows and valiants cause I sure as hell won't be firing all shots to kill a grunt , will stick to asari adept , better nerf that too.
Buff teh players :cry:

[Kenadian]

Megachaz wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Razerath wrote...

saxybeast418 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

This is very interesting. If tactical cloak was really the source of the problem, wouldn't the overuse of infiltrators be across all difficulties instead primarily Gold (and to a lesser extent Silver)?

Perhaps I'm misreading the data, but this seems to indicate not that Infiltrators are overperforming, but that the other classes are underperforming.

+1 Eric please reply to this! I'd like to know your opinion on why Infiltrators shine on Gold.

Is it because TCloak can provide ( combined with the right weapons ) the best way to beat Gold and farm some credits?

Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

As much of a problem as that is, that simply speaks to the strengths of the class. OP or not, if you take out what many people use as a strong tool for Gold (and for any potential Platinum mode in the future) but leave the other classes as they were before, that simply takes away from the enjoyment. You'll see a big drop in the success rate of PUG gold games.

I'd rather be in fewer successful Gold PUGs than have the situation there is now.  It's not uncommon for there to be 3 Infis in a lobby, and then you're forced to change to Infi or take all aggro.

Maybe you've played a game where I was one of those 3 infiltrators.

[holdenagincourt]

Hmm, the other thing I thought of is the sheer number of Banshees and Phantoms on gold (Brutes to a much lesser extent, Atlas sync kill potential not really worth mentioning). When there are so many enemies who can irremediably remove a player from a wave, having a player who can lose their attention to perform tasks like disable devices, running TO the pizza, activating a hack and holding it if the rest of the team is getting overwhelmed, medic-ing in a hot zone is a huge plus. I hate trying to cap objectives as a non-infiltrator and hearing the sound of a Banshee charging her way over to me.... 

[Miniditka77]

molecularman wrote...

Please stop using the buff everything else argument, it won't happen

Exactly.  Gold is supposed to be hard.  I know a few people on this forum find Gold to be easy (and inform others of that fact with varying degrees of class), but those people are in the vast minority.  There are many reasons more people use Infiltrators on Gold.  Their tactical advantages (reviving and capping objectives) are one good reason.  But nobody can deny with a straight face that some people use Infiltrators on Gold because it's easier.  If every class were as good as the Infiltrator on Gold, then Gold wouldn't be as much of a challenge any more.

I don't care whether they nerf TC or not.  I understand why some people want it nerfed, although I think the Krysae might be a bigger problem source than TC.  But buffing everything else is the most ridiculous and overly complicated solution possible.

[JerZey CJ]

Master Xanthan wrote...

Jay Leon Hart wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

You're seriously thinking about nerfing TC rather than buffing other classes?

The amount of facepalm required here simply does not exist.

Did you ever stop to think that a lot of people play infiltrators more because you did something right with them and did something wrong with the other classes? No, I guess that escaped your attention.

I play all the classes I like equally on gold and that includes my infiltrator. If you guys nerf TC and don't make headshots bypass shieldgate I may just have to kiss this game goodbye.

I wonder if you got to the part where he mentions they must have done something well with Cloak and he's glad we like it, before you went off in a strop...

I don't see the post where he says he's glad we liked it. You'll have to link me to it.

Go back to the main forum page for ME3 multiplayer, look for this thread, click on the "BIOWARE" on the left hand side. You can now see all of the Dev posts in that thread.

[Jay Leon Hart]

FirstBlood XL wrote...
Tac Cloak NEEDS to be slightly "OP", especially in the GI class... as the friggin' GI has NO OTHER POWERS... save for the useless Prox Mines and HM that screws up your screen for the entire match.

Useless Proximity Mines? Useless 1,000+ AoE damage with a 20% damage buff? What do you call useful?

[Blind2Society]

Jay Leon Hart wrote...

I wonder if you got to the part where he mentions they must have done something well with Cloak and he's glad we like it, before you went off in a strop...

Yeah, I saw that after I typed it. They did something right with cloak and he's glad we like it but he's changing it anyway.

Yeah, way to go.

Modifié par Blind2Society, 22 juin 2012 - 12:18 .

[Sailears]

The combat drone was already pretty useful, and I didn't expect it to get a buff so soon. So I'm really happy about that - human engineer is singing and dancing even more.

I'll have to see about the sentry turret for myself, how much difference these make. Even with damage boosts, it's still pretty fragile and goes down fast (faster than the combat drone with full shields), so I'm not sure yet.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Master Xanthan wrote...

I don't see the post where he says he's glad we liked it. You'll have to link me to it.

Bottom of page 8

[MinatheBrat]

MassEffected555 wrote...

Bioware, can you check data on that 33% and see if they are in private or public matches? If you can I think that might shed a new light on why you see such a high number. Again, 75%ish of time I do randoms I am on my infiltrator. Private matches you usually see me on an adept or eng. I do not believe the reasons I stated above solely apply to me.

I would be very curious to see the results if you can parse that data to see the split between public/private matches.
 

Very good point. I am willing to bet that the Infiltrator gets played much much more frequently on public matches vs. private ones.

Guys, is there anyway to get those numbers?

[RobertM525]

I don't suppose there's any chance Bioware would be willing to share more class usage stats... I always find that type of thing interesting. (Especially if it was also broke down by "sub-class"/"race.")