696 réponses à ce sujet

[sliverofamoon]

First of all, I am INCREDIBLYHUGELYGREATLYEPICLY excited about the turret and drone changes!!!!! I can't wait to get home tonight, and play my Engineer's! Especially my QE!

And in regards to the entire TC nerf. thing. I am not very excited about this at all. I'll try not to be too incredibly negative about this until the changes are shown, but, I wonder what would happen if all of those/us that use Infiltrators on Gold stopped playing the class for two weeks. How many less successful Gold extractions would there be, then? Well, that's not a good thing to discuss since many Gold matches fail due to the fact that it doesn't matter to anyone but those who are trying to get XP to lvl up a character whether you extract or not, and most wipe on purpose. after the wave 10 objective. Hell....... how many less Gold matches that failed at the first objective be? My bet would be that the numbers of successful matches, or matches that earned no credits, and wiped at the first objective would be staggering. Anyway......

T1l wrote...

RGFrog wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...
Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

ROFLMAO, so you're considering a nerf to one player out of 4 in every match. Simply because you don't have the time to instead correct the problems with the other 3. <_<

That's exactly what he's saying. It's understandable, though. Rebalancing all of the other race/class combinations to bring them inline with Tactical Cloak would be massively time consuming. It's easier just to nerf the hell out of Tactical Cloak, leaving it 'mediocre' and less appealing so other classes end up being better represented in matches.

I think it's an awful way of looking at things. Breaking things down in to numbers on a spreadsheet is interesting, but it's not indicative of fun.

And in response to the above........... roll back the Biotic nerfs, ease up on the enemy dodges, and I bet the number of Adepts would rise again. Two simple changes, and........... Not to mention fixing the VG bug so that not just the host can actually play a VG in a party safely.

[brit316]

20% instead of 40% on rank 6

TC bonus only applies to 1st shot out of TC

Make it so INF actually have to consider weight of weapon


But instead of that you should fix things like the heaviest classes being stunlocked and being impossible to use vs. geth...and for christ sake the Turian soldier needs more mobility

Modifié par brit316, 22 juin 2012 - 01:53 .

[Kenadian]

sliverofamoon wrote...

First of all, I am INCREDIBLYHUGELYGREATLYEPICLY excited about the turret and drone changes!!!!! I can't wait to get home tonight, and play my Engineer's! Especially my QE!

And in regards to the entire TC nerf. thing. I am not very excited about this at all. I'll try not to be too incredibly negative about this until the changes are shown, but, I wonder what would happen if all of those/us that use Infiltrators on Gold stopped playing the class for two weeks. How many less successful Gold extractions would there be, then? Well, that's not a good thing to discuss since many Gold matches fail due to the fact that it doesn't matter to anyone but those who are trying to get XP to lvl up a character whether you extract or not, and most wipe on purpose. after the wave 10 objective. Hell....... how many less Gold matches that failed at the first objective be? My bet would be that the numbers of successful matches, or matches that earned no credits, and wiped at the first objective would be staggering. Anyway......

T1l wrote...

RGFrog wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...
Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

ROFLMAO, so you're considering a nerf to one player out of 4 in every match. Simply because you don't have the time to instead correct the problems with the other 3. <_<

That's exactly what he's saying. It's understandable, though. Rebalancing all of the other race/class combinations to bring them inline with Tactical Cloak would be massively time consuming. It's easier just to nerf the hell out of Tactical Cloak, leaving it 'mediocre' and less appealing so other classes end up being better represented in matches.

I think it's an awful way of looking at things. Breaking things down in to numbers on a spreadsheet is interesting, but it's not indicative of fun.

And in response to the above........... roll back the Biotic nerfs, ease up on the enemy dodges, and I bet the number of Adepts would rise again. Two simple changes, and........... Not to mention fixing the VG bug so that not just the host can actually play a VG in a party safely.

This. Pay attention to this Eric. You don't need to buff every detail of every other playstyle to make TC and Infiltrators less used. Just rollback changes that had negative effects.

[Sinapus]

humes spork wrote...

Sinapus wrote...

What percentage of those Infiltrators complete the Gold match? Gather some other stats on them while you're at it.

You know good and well that's going to be a very low percentage. The total completion percentage -- infiltrators or not -- for gold is extremely low, because players fail intentionally after completing the wave 10 objective or refuse to extract. I'd even go so far as to argue that percentage would be even lower than the total, given the infiltrator class' appeal to the min/max crowd, who are the same people to be intentionally failing wave 10 gold the most.

I guess I'm an oddball in more than one way: I go for completing the mission. Even if I have a lvl 20 character. (What can I say, the role-play aspects of that last desperate struggle before the shuttle arrives is fun.)


I'm probably one of the few who takes the duration and "fire power while cloaked" options for tactical cloak. Mega-oddball!

[LeandroBraz]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

If it's only enough to encorage people to play with other classes, this would be nice. 

[sliverofamoon]

Sinapus wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Sinapus wrote...

What percentage of those Infiltrators complete the Gold match? Gather some other stats on them while you're at it.

You know good and well that's going to be a very low percentage. The total completion percentage -- infiltrators or not -- for gold is extremely low, because players fail intentionally after completing the wave 10 objective or refuse to extract. I'd even go so far as to argue that percentage would be even lower than the total, given the infiltrator class' appeal to the min/max crowd, who are the same people to be intentionally failing wave 10 gold the most.

I guess I'm an oddball in more than one way: I go for completing the mission. Even if I have a lvl 20 character. (What can I say, the role-play aspects of that last desperate struggle before the shuttle arrives is fun.)


I'm probably one of the few who takes the duration and "fire power while cloaked" options for tactical cloak. Mega-oddball!

I don't know about the sections I've bolded. You are not alone in trying to reach extraction each and every time. I also choose this option, and duration, for my FQI. Because Sabo. is so much FUN!!!! It used to be funner...... *shrugs* but it's still very fun. I know alot of scoreboard****s don't pick it because Sabo. gives no points for it's use at all.

[ParanoidDrone]

Kenadian wrote...

The rank 6 bonus is additive, apparently.

This is news to me.  I thought the damage dealt was too high to be additive?  (Something about oneshotting a Geth Trooper on Gold.)

[Kenadian]

ParanoidDrone wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

The rank 6 bonus is additive, apparently.

This is news to me.  I thought the damage dealt was too high to be additive?  (Something about oneshotting a Geth Trooper on Gold.)

As seen here.

http://social.biowar.../index/12683470

[smokesheller87]

If anything is done to TC, it should be the fixing of the bugs of TC

[sliverofamoon]

Chriss5688 wrote...

sliverofamoon wrote...

First of all, I am INCREDIBLYHUGELYGREATLYEPICLY excited about the turret and drone changes!!!!! I can't wait to get home tonight, and play my Engineer's! Especially my QE!

And in regards to the entire TC nerf. thing. I am not very excited about this at all. I'll try not to be too incredibly negative about this until the changes are shown, but, I wonder what would happen if all of those/us that use Infiltrators on Gold stopped playing the class for two weeks. How many less successful Gold extractions would there be, then? Well, that's not a good thing to discuss since many Gold matches fail due to the fact that it doesn't matter to anyone but those who are trying to get XP to lvl up a character whether you extract or not, and most wipe on purpose. after the wave 10 objective. Hell....... how many less Gold matches that failed at the first objective be? My bet would be that the numbers of successful matches, or matches that earned no credits, and wiped at the first objective would be staggering. Anyway......

I can assure you the Sentry Turret is now worthy of the female Quarian Engineer and those hips.

Regarding Tactical Cloak... I just hope they don't nerf it to the ground. GodlessPaladin's changes (in his balance ALL the things thread) is perfect. Makes you choose between that insane damage and the capability of capping objectives and reviving teammates safely. And if a team fails because it has no Infiltrators then said team just isn't good at all. Give me a decent team and I'll clear Gold under 30 minutes (perhaps 25) consistently for you without any Infiltrators or trouble.

Yay! Thanks for the info. Chriss! I'll be looking for you in a little over an hour! And yes, I know you, and Z can.

[DarkAbsolution]

ForThessia wrote...

DarkAbsolution wrote...

(sigh) I had a huge long rant about any attempt to nerf TC written out, but ultimately it just comes down to this. Nerfing TC is going to ruin the FUN of the game for a lot of people. BW better be prepared for a significant community backlash if it's nerfed in any major way.

well when they nerfed BEs you diddnt hear me crying and claiming that the game is no fun anymore, you just change your strategy

When they nerfed BE's, I observed people playing other classes more.  When they upped the enemy dodges such that, on Gold at least, it's very hard to hit a target, let alone get a BE off before your target gets taken down by someone else, then in my experience I saw many people turned to the biotic classes that gave undodgable hits (DA, AJ).

Yes, I agree with you that you just change your strategy, but consider where this is going.  People were enjoying using BE's, "too much" obviously, so they nerfed them to drive people to use other classes.  People then flocked to the Infiltrators (we're talking generalisations here).  They nerf that, and people will then flock to a different class that now becomes the next powerful.  How long do you think it'll be before they nerf that too?

People will play classes that are effective.  This is the natural way of things.  If BW's method of deciding on what to nerf is whichever class gets played the most, then what we then have is an ever downward spiral of nerfs to whatever the effective class of the time is until we reach the lowest common denominator.

You may adapt.  I may adapt.  I see less and less people on all the time, and some of the reasons people give for leaving are the nerfs of what they enjoy, and the bugs affecting the classes that they want to play.

My Opinion: Fix the bugs that cripple a number of classes first, and then let's assess what needs nerfing after that.

[bondiboy]

Thanks . Some interesting changes and will encourage people to play Engineers more...including me. Not concerned about any balance changes to TC .

[Metal Vile]

SquirrelWiz wrote...

My concern is that any changes will make TC so narrow in implementation that it breaks the class. As it stands right now, TC works well with pretty much any playstyle; its long enough that you can move around, and boost damage to the point where you can be brutally effective for the couple of seconds after you break cloak.

If the damage and duration is split into the two separate trees of TC you'll end up killing off anything that isn't a sniper, as shotgun/pistol infiltrators will no longer have the damage output they need to make use of their new positioning.

Don't you see that no other class has a power that benefits every play-style so effectively?  Yes, its makes Infiltrator a fun a popular class.  But that's because it HAS no defined role, it does everything.  The only thing it CAN'T do is buff allies defensively  (which only a handful of classes can do anyways, GE and AJA).  

"Oh, but it has no biotics / doesn't syngerize with a BE team!"  Who cares?  It does the same thing BE's do, which is kill enemies.  And it does it arguably quicker and more effectively against mooks, and about same against bosses.  Best class at reviving?  Check.  Best class for most objectives (except new pizza delivery)?  Check.  Top tier damage dealer?  Check.   Impressive survivability (assuming you're smart enough to watch surroundings)?  Check.

Infiltrator is the ONLY class that gets ALL of these benefits from one freaking power.  How does that NOT sound at least a little OP to you?

(this was not directed at the quoted individual in particular.  Just using his post as a starting point)

[Kenadian]

DarkAbsolution wrote...

ForThessia wrote...

DarkAbsolution wrote...

(sigh) I had a huge long rant about any attempt to nerf TC written out, but ultimately it just comes down to this. Nerfing TC is going to ruin the FUN of the game for a lot of people. BW better be prepared for a significant community backlash if it's nerfed in any major way.

well when they nerfed BEs you diddnt hear me crying and claiming that the game is no fun anymore, you just change your strategy

When they nerfed BE's, I observed people playing other classes more.  When they upped the enemy dodges such that, on Gold at least, it's very hard to hit a target, let alone get a BE off before your target gets taken down by someone else, then in my experience I saw many people turned to the biotic classes that gave undodgable hits (DA, AJ).

Yes, I agree with you that you just change your strategy, but consider where this is going.  People were enjoying using BE's, "too much" obviously, so they nerfed them to drive people to use other classes.  People then flocked to the Infiltrators (we're talking generalisations here).  They nerf that, and people will then flock to a different class that now becomes the next powerful.  How long do you think it'll be before they nerf that too?

People will play classes that are effective.  This is the natural way of things.  If BW's method of deciding on what to nerf is whichever class gets played the most, then what we then have is an ever downward spiral of nerfs to whatever the effective class of the time is until we reach the lowest common denominator.

You may adapt.  I may adapt.  I see less and less people on all the time, and some of the reasons people give for leaving are the nerfs of what they enjoy, and the bugs affecting the classes that they want to play.

My Opinion: Fix the bugs that cripple a number of classes first, and then let's assess what needs nerfing after that.

That would require frequent patching. That's not something BW is known for. Like...ever.

[CHAw]

Metal Vile wrote...

"Oh, but it has no biotics / doesn't syngerize with a BE team!"  Who cares?  It does the same thing BE's do, which is kill enemies.  And it does it arguably quicker and more effectively against mooks, and about same against bosses.  Best class at reviving?  Check.  Best class for most objectives (except new pizza delivery)?  Check.  Top tier damage dealer?  Check.   Impressive survivability (assuming you're smart enough to watch surroundings)?  Check.

Infiltrator is the ONLY class that gets ALL of these benefits from one freaking power.  How does that NOT sound at least a little OP to you?

You forgot to mention the part where Tactical Cloak lets Infiltrators largely ignore weight penalties to power cooldown.

[Y2Kevin]

I'm sure it's been said a number of times over the course of this thread (I'll be honest, I'm not about to read 14 pages), but there seems to be a major focus on these nerfs & buffs, but how about fixing the bugs? There are a number of bugs that should be addressed before nerfing & buffing classes such as Vanguard bug, Kroguard Rage, Tactical Cloak uncloaking, SMG ultralight materials, etc.

[Magicman10893]

Well, my expressed thoughts on why there are so many Infiltrators on Gold is because of several reasons that all relate to the game's own, crappy mechanics.

1) Look at the other classes and races and compare them to the Infiltrators. 3 out 5 Soldier and Sentinel races don't have any kind of dodge move with the Krogans and Batarians literally not having a cover transition animation. 3 out the 5 races are primarily designed for melee and tanking. Of those 3, only the Vorcha is effective. The Krogan and Batarian are slow and stiff and can be stun-locked and destroyed easily. The added survivability from additional health, shields and DR doesn't amount to anything on Gold.

Of the other two races for Soldiers and Sentinels, Humans and Turians aren't very prominent. People seem to have trouble using the Turians (lack of mobility being a key issue) since Marksman requires certain weapons to work well (Claymore, Hurricane, Revenant, Scimitar) and most people don't bother going through the trial and error testing out EVERY weapon combination. Proximity Mine doesn't help alleviate the problem either since it suffers from the same projectile glitch that plagued the Falcon for months. The Sentinel fairs better with his ability to use both Overload AND Warp, but not being able to detonate his own BEs like the Human is a major disadvantage.

The Human Soldier is nice and I don't have any complaints here, but the Human Sentinel feels redundant when the Asari Adept has Warp and Throw as well plus Stasis.

Vanguards suffer from the same crippling glitch that has been plaguing us since the demo and still hasn't been fixed 4 months later even after supposedly being patched. This debilitating glitch has kept a lot of people away from the entire class.

Engineers, well, this balance change today is enough evidence to show how underpowered the QFE and HE were.

Infiltrators on the other hand? They all are very mobile (Geth even have a movement speed increase), do massive amounts of damage, have an ability to aid them in survival and make being a team player much easier. This is what every class should be like. The only ones that compete are the Adepts with their Biotic Explosions for crowd control and damage output.

2) Evidently, the fact that it is being taken around 15% of the time on Bronze (so about 1/6th of the time like it should be) and 33% on Gold (1/3rd of the time) is indicative that Gold is the problem. Enemies have been buffed beyond being fun for many people. Stun locking d-bags on the Geth, insta-kill units that turn invisible and swarm you (Phantoms) and the ever random insta-killer that is the Banshee aren't fun on any difficulty. Then factor in how the Armor Damage Resistance works and you've made automatic weapons damn near useless (thus pushing people towards sniping and the go to sniper class). Now consider how much damage the enemies deal and can shrug off. It's no wonder people want to use the class that is "overpowered." You can see the easier difficulties allow people to play the class/race combo they like rather than what is most effective.

3) Tactical Cloak may be really useful and if your goal is to bring it down to the level of the other classes, then at least fix the (in my opinion) exploit. Right now, you can fire off a power while using Cloak and it has the same cooldown as Cloak. This certainly shouldn't be the way it works. I am fine with how the cooldown on Cloak works, but people can exploit that fact to cloak and then fire off Energy Drain/Proximity Mine and give it a 3 second cooldown despite the fact that you are running around with a Widow/Claymore combo. Fix it so when you fire off that Energy Drain you are given ED's cooldown.

4) As I've already mentioned before, we are talking about 1/3 of the community using Infiltrators on Gold. Bioware's already said that close to a third of all the successful Gold matches are on FBWGG. Everyone that farms FBWGG recommends having at least one Infiltrator for objectives, not to mention the synergy that a tech class has with fighting Geth. Energy Drain, Sabotage and Arc Grenades are great with tech bursts, especially since people are going to pick Engineers to fight the Geth so you probably have some Overloads mixed in the bunch.

[ParanoidDrone]

Kenadian wrote...

As seen here.

http://social.biowar.../index/12683470

And the followup posts detail some experiments where they plug numbers into the damage formula, compare the expected result against actual damage dealt, and realize that they shouldn't be oneshotting a Geth Trooper.

I'm just confused since the devs are saying one thing and the game itself seems to be saying another.

[KTheAlchemist]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

It couldn't be, oh...because the design structure of Gold matches overemphasizes defensive, campaign-style play to which Infiltrator is the obvious answer? No, of course, it must be because cloak is so very OP.

C'mon, people. It's no big mystery here why people favor infiltrator. Nerfing the whole reason Infilitrator isn't clearly inferior to snipersoldier is not the answer here. Making people who don't play any race for infiltrator other than geth and maybe male quarian feel even more like schmucks isn't the answer either. The enemy frequently already completely ignores the stealth aspect of the ability and that still hasn't been fixed. Please don't remove the one reason I still play this game.

If you must nerf something about cloak, nerf its interaction with specific abilities that it is deemed OP with. Don't just smackdown the damage across the board when I'm simply using cloak to snipe with.

Modifié par KTheAlchemist, 22 juin 2012 - 02:12 .

[DiebytheSword]

Very happy about the FQE's turret buffs, and very happy about the Viper. It was woefully under-powered.

Not so happy about the TC situation. Any nerf will not be enough to satisfy those who want it broken, and any significant enough nerf will break classes using the smaller multi-shot rifles, while simultaneously not doing what you wanted it to do: stop people from using it, and using it better than most other classes.

I'm of the opinion that the other classes need to do more damage to compete, not the other way around.

[CHAw]

Kenadian wrote...

That would require frequent patching. That's not something BW is known for. Like...ever.

Neverwinter Nights got patched pretty frequently. But that was quite a few years back.

[ForThessia]

DarkAbsolution wrote...

ForThessia wrote...

DarkAbsolution wrote...

(sigh) I had a huge long rant about any attempt to nerf TC written out, but ultimately it just comes down to this. Nerfing TC is going to ruin the FUN of the game for a lot of people. BW better be prepared for a significant community backlash if it's nerfed in any major way.

well when they nerfed BEs you diddnt hear me crying and claiming that the game is no fun anymore, you just change your strategy

When they nerfed BE's, I observed people playing other classes more.  When they upped the enemy dodges such that, on Gold at least, it's very hard to hit a target, let alone get a BE off before your target gets taken down by someone else, then in my experience I saw many people turned to the biotic classes that gave undodgable hits (DA, AJ).

Yes, I agree with you that you just change your strategy, but consider where this is going.  People were enjoying using BE's, "too much" obviously, so they nerfed them to drive people to use other classes.  People then flocked to the Infiltrators (we're talking generalisations here).  They nerf that, and people will then flock to a different class that now becomes the next powerful.  How long do you think it'll be before they nerf that too?

People will play classes that are effective.  This is the natural way of things.  If BW's method of deciding on what to nerf is whichever class gets played the most, then what we then have is an ever downward spiral of nerfs to whatever the effective class of the time is until we reach the lowest common denominator.

You may adapt.  I may adapt.  I see less and less people on all the time, and some of the reasons people give for leaving are the nerfs of what they enjoy, and the bugs affecting the classes that they want to play.

My Opinion: Fix the bugs that cripple a number of classes first, and then let's assess what needs nerfing after that.

ill admit that after the BE nerf, i did take a break from my AA and discovered how much i love the AV( even though she keeps reaching for the sky)
concerning the rest of your post, the more i read it the more it makes sense and the " best class will be nerfed untill you are left with ****" would be frightening but i guess all everyone can hope for is a minor nerf that doesnt wreck the Inf completely

[Kenadian]

ParanoidDrone wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

As seen here.

http://social.biowar.../index/12683470

And the followup posts detail some experiments where they plug numbers into the damage formula, compare the expected result against actual damage dealt, and realize that they shouldn't be oneshotting a Geth Trooper.

I'm just confused since the devs are saying one thing and the game itself seems to be saying another.

Weird. Well, can't say it bothers me personally. I'd certainly expect my Claymore or Reegar to fell a measely little trooper in one go.