696 réponses à ce sujet

[Mgamerz]

Magicman10893 wrote...

Well, my expressed thoughts on why there are so many Infiltrators on Gold is because of several reasons that all relate to the game's own, crappy mechanics.

1) Look at the other classes and races and compare them to the Infiltrators. 3 out 5 Soldier and Sentinel races don't have any kind of dodge move with the Krogans and Batarians literally not having a cover transition animation. 3 out the 5 races are primarily designed for melee and tanking. Of those 3, only the Vorcha is effective. The Krogan and Batarian are slow and stiff and can be stun-locked and destroyed easily. The added survivability from additional health, shields and DR doesn't amount to anything on Gold.

Of the other two races for Soldiers and Sentinels, Humans and Turians aren't very prominent. People seem to have trouble using the Turians (lack of mobility being a key issue) since Marksman requires certain weapons to work well (Claymore, Hurricane, Revenant, Scimitar) and most people don't bother going through the trial and error testing out EVERY weapon combination. Proximity Mine doesn't help alleviate the problem either since it suffers from the same projectile glitch that plagued the Falcon for months. The Sentinel fairs better with his ability to use both Overload AND Warp, but not being able to detonate his own BEs like the Human is a major disadvantage.

The Human Soldier is nice and I don't have any complaints here, but the Human Sentinel feels redundant when the Asari Adept has Warp and Throw as well plus Stasis.

Vanguards suffer from the same crippling glitch that has been plaguing us since the demo and still hasn't been fixed 4 months later even after supposedly being patched. This debilitating glitch has kept a lot of people away from the entire class.

Engineers, well, this balance change today is enough evidence to show how underpowered the QFE and HE were.

Infiltrators on the other hand? They all are very mobile (Geth even have a movement speed increase), do massive amounts of damage, have an ability to aid them in survival and make being a team player much easier. This is what every class should be like. The only ones that compete are the Adepts with their Biotic Explosions for crowd control and damage output.

2) Evidently, the fact that it is being taken around 15% of the time on Bronze (so about 1/6th of the time like it should be) and 33% on Gold (1/3rd of the time) is indicative that Gold is the problem. Enemies have been buffed beyond being fun for many people. Stun locking d-bags on the Geth, insta-kill units that turn invisible and swarm you (Phantoms) and the ever random insta-killer that is the Banshee aren't fun on any difficulty. Then factor in how the Armor Damage Resistance works and you've made automatic weapons damn near useless (thus pushing people towards sniping and the go to sniper class). Now consider how much damage the enemies deal and can shrug off. It's no wonder people want to use the class that is "overpowered." You can see the easier difficulties allow people to play the class/race combo they like rather than what is most effective.

3) Tactical Cloak may be really useful and if your goal is to bring it down to the level of the other classes, then at least fix the (in my opinion) exploit. Right now, you can fire off a power while using Cloak and it has the same cooldown as Cloak. This certainly shouldn't be the way it works. I am fine with how the cooldown on Cloak works, but people can exploit that fact to cloak and then fire off Energy Drain/Proximity Mine and give it a 3 second cooldown despite the fact that you are running around with a Widow/Claymore combo. Fix it so when you fire off that Energy Drain you are given ED's cooldown.

4) As I've already mentioned before, we are talking about 1/3 of the community using Infiltrators on Gold. Bioware's already said that close to a third of all the successful Gold matches are on FBWGG. Everyone that farms FBWGG recommends having at least one Infiltrator for objectives, not to mention the synergy that a tech class has with fighting Geth. Energy Drain, Sabotage and Arc Grenades are great with tech bursts, especially since people are going to pick Engineers to fight the Geth so you probably have some Overloads mixed in the bunch.

+2

[Atheosis]

DarkAbsolution wrote...

ForThessia wrote...

DarkAbsolution wrote...

(sigh) I had a huge long rant about any attempt to nerf TC written out, but ultimately it just comes down to this. Nerfing TC is going to ruin the FUN of the game for a lot of people. BW better be prepared for a significant community backlash if it's nerfed in any major way.

well when they nerfed BEs you diddnt hear me crying and claiming that the game is no fun anymore, you just change your strategy

When they nerfed BE's, I observed people playing other classes more.  When they upped the enemy dodges such that, on Gold at least, it's very hard to hit a target, let alone get a BE off before your target gets taken down by someone else, then in my experience I saw many people turned to the biotic classes that gave undodgable hits (DA, AJ).

Yes, I agree with you that you just change your strategy, but consider where this is going.  People were enjoying using BE's, "too much" obviously, so they nerfed them to drive people to use other classes.  People then flocked to the Infiltrators (we're talking generalisations here).  They nerf that, and people will then flock to a different class that now becomes the next powerful.  How long do you think it'll be before they nerf that too?

People will play classes that are effective.  This is the natural way of things.  If BW's method of deciding on what to nerf is whichever class gets played the most, then what we then have is an ever downward spiral of nerfs to whatever the effective class of the time is until we reach the lowest common denominator.

You may adapt.  I may adapt.  I see less and less people on all the time, and some of the reasons people give for leaving are the nerfs of what they enjoy, and the bugs affecting the classes that they want to play.

My Opinion: Fix the bugs that cripple a number of classes first, and then let's assess what needs nerfing after that.

Warp throw is still one of the better combos in the game.  People have moved away from it because many people prefer playing overpowered things, and it is now a good but balanced combo rather being overpowered like it was before.  I don't see the problem.

[ParanoidDrone]

Kenadian wrote...

Weird. Well, can't say it bothers me personally. I'd certainly expect my Claymore or Reegar to fell a measely little trooper in one go.

Well, yes, but according to the numbers, it should have been impossible.  Hence the confusion.

[Kenadian]

Magicman10893 wrote...

Well, my expressed thoughts on why there are so many Infiltrators on Gold is because of several reasons that all relate to the game's own, crappy mechanics.

1) Look at the other classes and races and compare them to the Infiltrators. 3 out 5 Soldier and Sentinel races don't have any kind of dodge move with the Krogans and Batarians literally not having a cover transition animation. 3 out the 5 races are primarily designed for melee and tanking. Of those 3, only the Vorcha is effective. The Krogan and Batarian are slow and stiff and can be stun-locked and destroyed easily. The added survivability from additional health, shields and DR doesn't amount to anything on Gold.

Of the other two races for Soldiers and Sentinels, Humans and Turians aren't very prominent. People seem to have trouble using the Turians (lack of mobility being a key issue) since Marksman requires certain weapons to work well (Claymore, Hurricane, Revenant, Scimitar) and most people don't bother going through the trial and error testing out EVERY weapon combination. Proximity Mine doesn't help alleviate the problem either since it suffers from the same projectile glitch that plagued the Falcon for months. The Sentinel fairs better with his ability to use both Overload AND Warp, but not being able to detonate his own BEs like the Human is a major disadvantage.

The Human Soldier is nice and I don't have any complaints here, but the Human Sentinel feels redundant when the Asari Adept has Warp and Throw as well plus Stasis.

Vanguards suffer from the same crippling glitch that has been plaguing us since the demo and still hasn't been fixed 4 months later even after supposedly being patched. This debilitating glitch has kept a lot of people away from the entire class.

Engineers, well, this balance change today is enough evidence to show how underpowered the QFE and HE were.

Infiltrators on the other hand? They all are very mobile (Geth even have a movement speed increase), do massive amounts of damage, have an ability to aid them in survival and make being a team player much easier. This is what every class should be like. The only ones that compete are the Adepts with their Biotic Explosions for crowd control and damage output.

2) Evidently, the fact that it is being taken around 15% of the time on Bronze (so about 1/6th of the time like it should be) and 33% on Gold (1/3rd of the time) is indicative that Gold is the problem. Enemies have been buffed beyond being fun for many people. Stun locking d-bags on the Geth, insta-kill units that turn invisible and swarm you (Phantoms) and the ever random insta-killer that is the Banshee aren't fun on any difficulty. Then factor in how the Armor Damage Resistance works and you've made automatic weapons damn near useless (thus pushing people towards sniping and the go to sniper class). Now consider how much damage the enemies deal and can shrug off. It's no wonder people want to use the class that is "overpowered." You can see the easier difficulties allow people to play the class/race combo they like rather than what is most effective.

3) Tactical Cloak may be really useful and if your goal is to bring it down to the level of the other classes, then at least fix the (in my opinion) exploit. Right now, you can fire off a power while using Cloak and it has the same cooldown as Cloak. This certainly shouldn't be the way it works. I am fine with how the cooldown on Cloak works, but people can exploit that fact to cloak and then fire off Energy Drain/Proximity Mine and give it a 3 second cooldown despite the fact that you are running around with a Widow/Claymore combo. Fix it so when you fire off that Energy Drain you are given ED's cooldown.

4) As I've already mentioned before, we are talking about 1/3 of the community using Infiltrators on Gold. Bioware's already said that close to a third of all the successful Gold matches are on FBWGG. Everyone that farms FBWGG recommends having at least one Infiltrator for objectives, not to mention the synergy that a tech class has with fighting Geth. Energy Drain, Sabotage and Arc Grenades are great with tech bursts, especially since people are going to pick Engineers to fight the Geth so you probably have some Overloads mixed in the bunch.

This. Take this into consideration, Eric.

[Mgamerz]

[ParanoidDrone]

Atheosis wrote...

Warp throw is still one of the better combos in the game.  People have moved away from it because many people prefer playing overpowered things, and it is now a good but balanced combo rather being overpowered like it was before.  I don't see the problem.

Don't forget the tendency for enemies to dodge an unnaturally high percentage of projectile powers thrown their way.  Even if you're behind them.  Both Warp and Throw are projectiles.

[DarkSpooky]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

Maybe because people who do gold really want to win, where are generally people can suck on gold and still win. Think of it like this, on Bronze the room for error is probably around 90. You can screw up a lot and still win. GOLD however you have about 30. Meaning that if people are screwing around and not doing thier job, the mission will fail.

Snipers are the BEST go to class, not simply for damage as most these whiner nerf-babies will tell you. It gives invisiblity, allowing for the chance to escape or get into a better position. It helps when hacking, getting to the pizza on retrieve objectives, stealthing the holding objective, pick up teammates, etc etc. Soldiers cannot do that, sentinels cannot do that, and Adepts cannot do that.

Vanguards can charge out of trouble, engineers can divert trouble using turrets and drones, and infiltrators can stealth out. That is what they are best for. Regardless the damage bonus you get out of the TC is comarable to the AR for the soldier, granted a bit different though. AR can give shields, give damage resistance, and reload your gun while giving a damage increase. TC allows you to stealth for a short time, even then the enemies may still be able to track you, and give a damage bonus while preventing you from recharging your shields. Should we nerf AR next?

Cloaker also works well because they are not inheriantly gimped against any one faction. Adepts can have trouble with geth and some cerberus units, Tech works well on geth but is a little less effective on reapers and to an even lesser degree cerberus. Cloaker is not seemingly gimped in such a fashion.

Here is the bottomline, Cloaker is the best character because he is the one class that can be a major team player which is a bit important in gold games and they are the one class that are equally good against all factions.

All I can ask, is that you Bioware guys PLEASE think about what you are going to do before you do it. Geth Engineer got the nasty end of the shaft when you nerfed HM, keep that in mind.

[ForThessia]

Atheosis wrote...

DarkAbsolution wrote...

ForThessia wrote...

DarkAbsolution wrote...

(sigh) I had a huge long rant about any attempt to nerf TC written out, but ultimately it just comes down to this. Nerfing TC is going to ruin the FUN of the game for a lot of people. BW better be prepared for a significant community backlash if it's nerfed in any major way.

well when they nerfed BEs you diddnt hear me crying and claiming that the game is no fun anymore, you just change your strategy

When they nerfed BE's, I observed people playing other classes more.  When they upped the enemy dodges such that, on Gold at least, it's very hard to hit a target, let alone get a BE off before your target gets taken down by someone else, then in my experience I saw many people turned to the biotic classes that gave undodgable hits (DA, AJ).

Yes, I agree with you that you just change your strategy, but consider where this is going.  People were enjoying using BE's, "too much" obviously, so they nerfed them to drive people to use other classes.  People then flocked to the Infiltrators (we're talking generalisations here).  They nerf that, and people will then flock to a different class that now becomes the next powerful.  How long do you think it'll be before they nerf that too?

People will play classes that are effective.  This is the natural way of things.  If BW's method of deciding on what to nerf is whichever class gets played the most, then what we then have is an ever downward spiral of nerfs to whatever the effective class of the time is until we reach the lowest common denominator.

You may adapt.  I may adapt.  I see less and less people on all the time, and some of the reasons people give for leaving are the nerfs of what they enjoy, and the bugs affecting the classes that they want to play.

My Opinion: Fix the bugs that cripple a number of classes first, and then let's assess what needs nerfing after that.

Warp throw is still one of the better combos in the game.  People have moved away from it because many people prefer playing overpowered things, and it is now a good but balanced combo rather being overpowered like it was before.  I don't see the problem.

and if they change TC from a overpowered power to a good but balanced one you would be ok with that too?

[Atheosis]

Magicman10893 wrote...
2) Evidently, the fact that it is being taken around 15% of the time on Bronze (so about 1/6th of the time like it should be) and 33% on Gold (1/3rd of the time) is indicative that Gold is the problem. Enemies have been buffed beyond being fun for many people. Stun locking d-bags on the Geth, insta-kill units that turn invisible and swarm you (Phantoms) and the ever random insta-killer that is the Banshee aren't fun on any difficulty. Then factor in how the Armor Damage Resistance works and you've made automatic weapons damn near useless (thus pushing people towards sniping and the go to sniper class). Now consider how much damage the enemies deal and can shrug off. It's no wonder people want to use the class that is "overpowered." You can see the easier difficulties allow people to play the class/race combo they like rather than what is most effective.

No, what it indicates is that Bronze and Silver can be easily beaten by even the weakest builds and loadouts.  It also indicates that there are probably a lot of Silver-level players rocking GI's on Gold because a GI on Gold is actually easier than many classes on Silver.

[SmawgSS]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%).

Whats the best way to pick up fallen comrades surrounded by (say 3) Primes/Banshee's/Atlas? CLOAK and get em...
Thats the main reason I play Inf. on gold anyway...  It sure helps with the '4 upload' objective as well....

[Mystical_Gaming]

I hope infiltrators don't get nerfed too much, that will ruin the fun of the game for me.

[Atheosis]

SmawgSS wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%).

Whats the best way to pick up fallen comrades surrounded by (say 3) Primes/Banshee's/Atlas? CLOAK and get em...
Thats the main reason I play Inf. on gold anyway...  It sure helps with the '4 upload' objective as well....

It helps with everything.  That's kind of the point.  

[IIIMystIII]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

Most likely because it is one of the few things that actually work in Gold.

As for nerfing it, I have to laugh at the fact tactical cloak has been around as it is now for months and only now is it suddenly some sort of affront to all that is fair and balanced. I would suggest instead of ruining yet another skill to appease the narrow sighted forum whining you would instead take a step back and go "So why are people not using other classes more on Gold?" and work from there.

But we all know that will not happen...

Modifié par IIIMystIII, 22 juin 2012 - 02:34 .

[xis3]

just top scored with a drell vanguard viper, thanks for the buff, it needed it.

[BobWalt]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Razerath wrote...

saxybeast418 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

This is very interesting. If tactical cloak was really the source of the problem, wouldn't the overuse of infiltrators be across all difficulties instead primarily Gold (and to a lesser extent Silver)?

Perhaps I'm misreading the data, but this seems to indicate not that Infiltrators are overperforming, but that the other classes are underperforming.

+1 Eric please reply to this! I'd like to know your opinion on why Infiltrators shine on Gold.

Is it because TCloak can provide ( combined with the right weapons ) the best way to beat Gold and farm some credits?

Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

 


Infiltrators should not be the major damage dealer in a group.  An infiltrator's major mission should be flanking and caping objectives. From the messages on the forum a great many play the infiltrator so they can get the highest score and many will only play that because the score is the most important part of the game to them. I think the key to balancing out the teams would be to make the damage bonus evolutions less attractive and the invisibility and non detection more attractive. This could be accomplised by reducing the length in cloak to 6-8 sec for damage dealers and increasing to 18-20 seconds for the sneaky types. Also making detection less likely for the sneaky types and more likely for the damage dealers would help.   The second part would be to drasticly increase the damage bonus for for the weapons used by the soldier class and decrease the damage that the more squishy soldier types take.

[VladImpalerIII]

With a lack of statistics presented what conclusions can validly be made and what is the benefit or rationale of offering such a small amount of information to the community?  How many Gold matches successfully complete level 10 (assuming that is the goal of a Gold run) and of these how many are not FBWGG?   Has that number increased solely because of percentage of Infiltrators?  Is that a bad thing and needs to be discouraged?  What is BW's standard what should be the percentage of successful Gold matches?  Is it too high now?  How many were private and/or under say 15 minutes (percent by teams intentionally designed for fast completions, which like FBWGG appears to be a statistical anomaly).  If it is a game and games are to be for fun, what is the rationale to remove that which people like to use?  Do the statistics shows it is that game-breaking and how?  It's good to know that making the other classes viable would take too much work but does that means classes that do work now should not work as well?  It make me think perhaps the Vanguard glitch should not be fixed, because then it might be used too much.

I love the game and I trust that anything that is done will be thoroughly discussed and workable but it's difficult to offer anything useful when so little is presented as everyone is just punching in relative darkness.  There should probably be a thread on what specific questions are necessary to know before offering any conclusion on what changes should or should be considered from the communities point of view.

[Magicman10893]

Atheosis wrote...

Magicman10893 wrote...
2) Evidently, the fact that it is being taken around 15% of the time on Bronze (so about 1/6th of the time like it should be) and 33% on Gold (1/3rd of the time) is indicative that Gold is the problem. Enemies have been buffed beyond being fun for many people. Stun locking d-bags on the Geth, insta-kill units that turn invisible and swarm you (Phantoms) and the ever random insta-killer that is the Banshee aren't fun on any difficulty. Then factor in how the Armor Damage Resistance works and you've made automatic weapons damn near useless (thus pushing people towards sniping and the go to sniper class). Now consider how much damage the enemies deal and can shrug off. It's no wonder people want to use the class that is "overpowered." You can see the easier difficulties allow people to play the class/race combo they like rather than what is most effective.

No, what it indicates is that Bronze and Silver can be easily beaten by even the weakest builds and loadouts.  It also indicates that there are probably a lot of Silver-level players rocking GI's on Gold because a GI on Gold is actually easier than many classes on Silver.

That's the point I'm sort of making. Bronze and Silver are easy enough that people can play it with the classes, races and weapons they like, which is how it should work. When you get to Gold it is so hard (for most people, including me) that in order to beat it you have to start Min/Maxing with the most "overpowered" weapons and classes. 

Also, depending on how you look at it, the Infiltrator isn't overpowered. Sure, compared to other classes they are, but compared to the game itself the Infiltrators are where the rest of classes should be and it is actually the other classes that are underpowered.

[Kenadian]

You know, I'd rest easy just knowing there was someone in the devs who was an Infiltrator lover like the rest of us. Defend our child.

[BobWalt]

Atheosis wrote...

SmawgSS wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%).

Whats the best way to pick up fallen comrades surrounded by (say 3) Primes/Banshee's/Atlas? CLOAK and get em...
Thats the main reason I play Inf. on gold anyway...  It sure helps with the '4 upload' objective as well....

It helps with everything.  That's kind of the point.  

If infltrators were actually doing that it would be different but unfortunately cloak is mainly used as a damage buff.

[Atheosis]

IIIMystIII wrote...

Most likely because it is one of the few things that actually work in Gold.

Ah it looks like another Silver player playing Gold.  So many of those anymore.  Probably a very large part of that 33% to be honest.

[Atheosis]

Kenadian wrote...

You know, I'd rest easy just knowing there was someone in the devs who was an Infiltrator lover like the rest of us. Defend our child.

It's well know that there are many Infiltrator-lovers on the dev team.  That's probably whay it's taken this long for them to do anything.

[Kenadian]

Atheosis wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

You know, I'd rest easy just knowing there was someone in the devs who was an Infiltrator lover like the rest of us. Defend our child.

It's well know that there are many Infiltrator-lovers on the dev team.  That's probably whay it's taken this long for them to do anything.

Then we must further strive to preserve the sanctity of the church. Reformers must be excommunicated.

[Jesse]

DarkAbsolution wrote...

ForThessia wrote...

DarkAbsolution wrote...

(sigh) I had a huge long rant about any attempt to nerf TC written out, but ultimately it just comes down to this. Nerfing TC is going to ruin the FUN of the game for a lot of people. BW better be prepared for a significant community backlash if it's nerfed in any major way.

well when they nerfed BEs you diddnt hear me crying and claiming that the game is no fun anymore, you just change your strategy

When they nerfed BE's, I observed people playing other classes more.  When they upped the enemy dodges such that, on Gold at least, it's very hard to hit a target, let alone get a BE off before your target gets taken down by someone else, then in my experience I saw many people turned to the biotic classes that gave undodgable hits (DA, AJ).

Yes, I agree with you that you just change your strategy, but consider where this is going.  People were enjoying using BE's, "too much" obviously, so they nerfed them to drive people to use other classes.  People then flocked to the Infiltrators (we're talking generalisations here).  They nerf that, and people will then flock to a different class that now becomes the next powerful.  How long do you think it'll be before they nerf that too?

People will play classes that are effective.  This is the natural way of things.  If BW's method of deciding on what to nerf is whichever class gets played the most, then what we then have is an ever downward spiral of nerfs to whatever the effective class of the time is until we reach the lowest common denominator.

You may adapt.  I may adapt.  I see less and less people on all the time, and some of the reasons people give for leaving are the nerfs of what they enjoy, and the bugs affecting the classes that they want to play.

My Opinion: Fix the bugs that cripple a number of classes first, and then let's assess what needs nerfing after that.

This. Agree with this that BW should prioritise resolving the bugs that plague some classes (AJA Rank 5 Power Increase, Kroguard Rage fail etc) before nerfing powers that some consider OP or hey, just like playing that class more than any other.

[Atheosis]

ParanoidDrone wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

Warp throw is still one of the better combos in the game.  People have moved away from it because many people prefer playing overpowered things, and it is now a good but balanced combo rather being overpowered like it was before.  I don't see the problem.

Don't forget the tendency for enemies to dodge an unnaturally high percentage of projectile powers thrown their way.  Even if you're behind them.  Both Warp and Throw are projectiles.

I'll admit it's kind of annoying, but there are quite a few ways to counter it.  Adapt and thrive.  Don't adapt and perish.

[InfamousResult]

IIIMystIII wrote...

Most likely because it is one of the few things that actually work in Gold.

Every class works on Gold.

Infiltrator makes Gold easier.

If you can't make other classes work on Gold, that doesn't mean they're bad. It means you're playing on the wrong difficulty.