696 réponses à ce sujet

[KiraTsukasa]

So much hate...

Thank you, Mr. Fagnan, for improving my only truly reliable friend in this game, my combat drone.

[ParanoidDrone]

Atheosis wrote...

I'll admit it's kind of annoying, but there are quite a few ways to counter it.  Adapt and thrive.  Don't adapt and perish.

I'll admit I'm unsure how to adapt to a glorified dice roll that decides whether or not my power hits the target.  (AOE powers notwithstanding.)  Can you enlighten me?

Modifié par ParanoidDrone, 22 juin 2012 - 02:45 .

[ArtGerhardt]

Najarati wrote...

Trakarg wrote...

Viper is still weaker than the carnifex, but it weighs more and has an unscoped penalty.

if you're going to bother buffing stuff, buff it properly so you DON'T have to do it more than once.

I don't recall the damage values for the Carnifex, but is it still better than the Viper even after applying the Infiltrator's 40% bonus damage to sniper rifles?

I wouldn't recomend judging a weapons effectiveness simply by stats. Your first carnifex shot probably won't wipe a hunters shields on gold, and at least 80% of your second shot's damage will be wasted by the shield gate mechanic. The viper with its lower damage but much higher fire rate won't suffer that same problem. The viper essentialy makes the shield gate mechanic irrelevant. The sniper rifle damage boost definately makes the vipers DPS higher than the carnifex anyway. Weight is mostly irrelevant on infiltrators too.

[Sinapus]

I'm finding myself reminded of a particular scene from a movie about Baron Munchausen where a dashing officer whom has committed more than a few heroic deeds defending his besieged city... is sentenced to death because his actions is making all the other soldiers feel inferior.

"This sort of behavior is demoralizing for the ordinary soldiers and
citizens who are trying to lead normal, simple, unexceptional lives. I
think things are difficult enough as it is without these emotional
people rocking the boat."

[InfamousResult]

Sinapus wrote...

I'm finding myself reminded of a particular scene from a movie about Baron Munchausen where a dashing officer whom has committed more than a few heroic deeds defending his besieged city... is sentenced to death because his actions is making all the other soldiers feel inferior.

"This sort of behavior is demoralizing for the ordinary soldiers and
citizens who are trying to lead normal, simple, unexceptional lives. I
think things are difficult enough as it is without these emotional
people rocking the boat."

Thank goodness that has absolutely no application here.

[Atheosis]

ParanoidDrone wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

I'll admit it's kind of annoying, but there are quite a few ways to counter it.  Adapt and thrive.  Don't adapt and perish.

I'll admit I'm unsure how to adapt to a glorified dice roll that decides whether or not my power hits the target.  (AOE powers notwithstanding.)  Can you enlighten me?

First and foremost you can prioritize targets in cover.  Targets in cover don't dodge.  Second you can hit them with Throw first, then proceed to Warp -> Throw.  They will either dodge it using up their dodge for the time being, or they will be staggered, and starggered targets can't dodge.  Also using rapid fire weapons will force them to roll opening them up to the combo.  Finally you should be prioritizing big targets, negating the issue altogether much of the time.  

I got bored with the combo long ago, but I still see people tearing it up with it all the time.

[Xaijin]

considering the health and shields Infiltrators get

They get the same as any other racial tree. Magic argument point is magic. (and also completely fabricated.)

Modifié par Xaijin, 22 juin 2012 - 02:58 .

[Atheosis]

ArtGerhardt wrote...

Najarati wrote...

Trakarg wrote...

Viper is still weaker than the carnifex, but it weighs more and has an unscoped penalty.

if you're going to bother buffing stuff, buff it properly so you DON'T have to do it more than once.

I don't recall the damage values for the Carnifex, but is it still better than the Viper even after applying the Infiltrator's 40% bonus damage to sniper rifles?

I wouldn't recomend judging a weapons effectiveness simply by stats. Your first carnifex shot probably won't wipe a hunters shields on gold, and at least 80% of your second shot's damage will be wasted by the shield gate mechanic. The viper with its lower damage but much higher fire rate won't suffer that same problem. The viper essentialy makes the shield gate mechanic irrelevant. The sniper rifle damage boost definately makes the vipers DPS higher than the carnifex anyway. Weight is mostly irrelevant on infiltrators too.

Yeah I'm ceratin the Viper is now better than the Carnifex on Infiltrators.  Now the question becomes is it good enough versus other sniper rifles for people to actually dust it off?

[Siliboy]

Loving the sentry turret and drone buff ^__^ As others have said, cryo and incinerate next please.

Don't really understand why people are calling for more buffs to uncommon weapons. I mean, they are the cheaper (not cheapest) end of weapon tiers. So don't be comparing them to rares.

I fear for what the TC nerf would be. I'm thinking a major damage bonus and a slight bonus time window nerf. What I would like to see though, is a slight damage nerf and a proper CD (same as other powers).

[hippojoe]

brit316 wrote...

20% instead of 40% on rank 6

TC bonus only applies to 1st shot out of TC

Make it so INF actually have to consider weight of weapon


But instead of that you should fix things like the heaviest classes being stunlocked and being impossible to use vs. geth...and for christ sake the Turian soldier needs more mobility

that would make basically every non single-shot weapons a waste of time on an infiltrator

which actually wouldnt affect me, i only use the claymore/widow, but thats gonna ruin some black widow/valiant/anything else users

[Xaijin]

CHAw wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

That would require frequent patching. That's not something BW is known for. Like...ever.

Neverwinter Nights got patched pretty frequently. But that was quite a few years back.

minimum now is going to be 6 weeks due to certification, and it also costs money per patch per platform.

[Lynx7725]

Eric Fagnan wrote...
It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

(....)

Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

Would like to add my 2 cents on this. Didn't read through the whole thread, so apologies if the points I am bringing up has been already discussed.

I've been reviewing the balance changes made after the game went public, in this thread. One of the things that stuck out like a sore thumb is that while the Human Infiltrator class hasn't gotten much buffing during the entire period, all the non-human infiltrator classes -- Salarian, Quarian, and Geth -- has recieved buffs in non-infiltrator powers/ abilities like ED, Proximity Mine, Sabotage (and nerfed back accordingly in some cases).

As such, my concern is that the Tactical Cloak power has synergized a bit too well with the buffed powers just a bit too well. On a Human Infiltrator, Tactical Cloak feels about right. As such, when a synergized power is added, it is entirely possible that the skill feels a bit over the top.

The question is whether the problem is a class problem, or a racial problem. If 30+% in Gold is Infiltrator, what specific class are they? Human, Quarian, Salarian, or Geth? If it's overwhelming one or two races (and that's my pet theory), then the problem is possibly in the synergy, not in Tactical Cloak by itself. The fix should address that root cause, rather than applying a nerf bat to a whole class.

Having said that, I won't deny that the Tactical Cloak gives the player at least some comfort. I'm not adverse to a little tweaking, especially if it opens up options for the Infiltrator. Here's some things I personally am comfortable with:

1. Review of the powers synergy within the Infiltrator class, specifically along Salarian and Geth lines.

2. Reduction in damage bonus. A small one, 5% to 10%, should be sufficient to make a point and still allow for Infiltrators to do their job. A bigger reduction may end up making the class sub-par, especially for the not-really-buffed Human Infiltrators.

3. Restriction of damage bonus to weapons only. However, this does restrict flexibility in build, so I'm not 100% keen on this.

4. Inclusion of additional, Objective-related bonuses, such as reduced capping time, reduced Hack time, increased speed while Retrieving, reduced reviving time as an option for Evolution 4, 5 or 6. Hard to do at this time, I supposed.

Incidentally, I play Bronze extensively, and the percentage there feels about right. Is it possible for Bioware to regularly publish these stats, not kill stats per player but more like "Gold: % Infiltrator = 30, Gold Map: ##% White", that kind of global metadata? It's usually quite interesting to observe the player base

[Jernau11]

I think whats happening here is a complicated interaction between bioware, the hardcore players (elitists) and the causal players. Bioware looked at their player base, (their primary source of income) and concluded that casual players were still struggling with Gold missions. So they created weapons that would make that easier, encouraging casuals to buy bioware points to get it in the process.

Chief among these was the Krysae. By introducing the Krysae to the game as a rare weapon and removing boss headshots its made it very easy for causal players to break the skill barrier. It no longer takes countless hours to get good at aiming. Almost anyone can perform well with a Krysae without worry of having to get headshots. Its in effect a sniper rifle with training wheels.

After this the ranks of infiltrators swelled with mediocre players using it and easily dominating matches. The outcome was players emediately called for a nerf of the Krysae and Geth infiltrators, who because of hunter mode, did a slighly larger amount of damage. They got their wish.

After the nerf Infiltrators were still dominating though. Why? There are two factors here, one is the obvious one. The Krysae didn't really change much. Its ability to break down the skill barrier remained. I think part of the other part of this is in the nature of the infiltrator class and its appeal to people grew to play it more. Its a very independent class. It doesn't requrie another player to help with tech bursts, it does primarily highly concentated burst damage and it can function on the battle field well with cap objectives.

Another factor is that many causal players really liked using the Krysae. It DOES do a lot of damage, even in the hands of non-infiltrators. Many of these players felt the Krysae nerf. Many are afraid new weapons which further break down the skill wall will not be introduced because of nerf cries and have responded by trying to retarget the call to those they see as the chief offenders.

As evidence of this I'd like to point to the timeline. Before rebellion was released gold had a large number of biotic explosion classes. The norm for me was to see 2-3 of these per group. Post Rebellion we saw the advent of the Krysae Infiltrator. My personal experience was that prior to Rebellion an infiltrator could perform well, but the really good ones were rare. The Black Widow, ruled the roost as far as the best infitrators went. It was a difficult beast to master with aim at close and medium ranges being almost impossible. Post rebellion the weapon of choice is now the Krysae. Anyone can use it without much difficulty. You have to really try to miss with it.

The solution: There have been a lot of different idea's put forth about how to fix this and I have one to offer. Remove the Krysae from the list of weapons infiltrators can use. Once infiltrators can miss, Soldiers (who can have a 6.8 second +70% damage bonus as opposed to infiltrators 2.8 second 90%) will start popping up like flies.

Oh and to the developers that think TC is OP, and anyone else really, your welcome to come play a match with me. You play the OP infiltrator and I'll play something else. Bring whatever you want, just no Krysae.

Modifié par Jernau11, 22 juin 2012 - 04:16 .

[Mgamerz]

One day people in this thread will realize that you can't just 'lock a weapon from a class' or 'make AI better' without a patch.
Actually, this game will be dead by then.

I'd love to see bioware make it open source and let all the complainers take matters into their own hands. I know they won't (duh!), but it'd be funny to see all these DO THIS! DO THAT! disappear for the most part. I'm sure Bioware isn't too proud of the MP forum...

Modifié par Mgamerz, 22 juin 2012 - 04:10 .

[majinclos]

PsychoticBiotic wrote...

Serevarno wrote...

Oh for the love of god...

Leave tac cloak alone. It's in no way over powered. It only seems that way in the hands of someone who's at least decent at the game. I've seen plenty of infiltrators that sucked and TC didn't help them suck any less.

Oh, really? Any fool can take a GI with a Krysae to a Gold match and dominate. I'm not endorsing a nerf, but I'm just saying. 

I thought the point of co-op is to win???

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

Personally, as you are playing with four people, and Gold is especially hard to complete hacks etc, revive team mates, any team with sense would use at least one infiltrator simply for hacks and revives - its common sense. So there should at least always be 25% of people using the class unless they actually release a class better for reviving squadmates and capping objectives.

I am not convinced the high percentage of players using the class has much to do with their high damage potential, IMO the best way to balance their overuse is to create a class with comparable powers for survivability. The justicar makes an awesome tank, but without cover it is still risky to cap objectives - same for krogan sentinels with huge DR, health and sheild pools.

[Chaoswind]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

Eric if possible nerf the damage of TC and increase the base duration and reduce the cooldown

That way people may use infiltrators to infiltrate and not as a soldier in steroids.

Suggestion:

Reduce TC damage, increase duration, and reduce cooldowns by 5%
Buff Cryo Blast as is quite the weak power, and makes the human infiltrator the most useless one

[Jernau11]

majinclos wrote...
Oh, really? Any fool can take a GI with a Krysae to a Gold match and dominate. I'm not endorsing a nerf, but I'm just saying.

Then they shouldn't punish those of us who do it with a Paladin. Between this crap and the headshot nerf  correction we've had enough.

[AshirahTSparkle]

Tactical Cloak nerf won't change a thing, I will still be using my Quarian Infiiltrator, just because I loved her and used her since the beginning of MP. And pulling off headshots is immensely satisfying. I don't think the number of Infil users will dwindle because of the nerf.

Modifié par AshirahTSparkle, 22 juin 2012 - 04:25 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

Well, I think following statistic number is somewhat more solid than following posters on forums (both side).

[Immortal Strife]

If you want more diversity fix the Vanguard glitch-nova guards will flood in. As it is right now only hosts can play vanguards meaning there total numbers are much lower then they should be.

[TrojanGuy]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

I use an Infiltrator because they're great for reviving fallen teammates (which you do a lot more often on Gold than the other difficulties) as well as for the 4-node objectives. I think a Gold team without an Infiltrator is often handicapped because it's much harder for them to revive each other and do the 4-node objective rounds.

[Siliboy]

majinclos wrote...

PsychoticBiotic wrote...

Serevarno wrote...

Oh for the love of god...

Leave tac cloak alone. It's in no way over powered. It only seems that way in the hands of someone who's at least decent at the game. I've seen plenty of infiltrators that sucked and TC didn't help them suck any less.

Oh, really? Any fool can take a GI with a Krysae to a Gold match and dominate. I'm not endorsing a nerf, but I'm just saying. 

I thought the point of co-op is to win???

And the point of having other class is? Oh decoys

[RGFrog]

Chaoswind wrote...

Eric if possible nerf the damage of TC and increase the base duration and reduce the cooldown

That way people may use infiltrators to infiltrate and not as a soldier in steroids.

Suggestion:

Reduce TC damage, increase duration, and reduce cooldowns by 5%
Buff Cryo Blast as is quite the weak power, and makes the human infiltrator the most useless one

Not a balance. Cryo can easily be buffed. It's just a stat change. A lot of things unique to each character in each class can be buffed and actually balance the game withoug nerfing anything.

[Najarati]

ArtGerhardt wrote...

I wouldn't recomend judging a weapons effectiveness simply by stats. Your first carnifex shot probably won't wipe a hunters shields on gold, and at least 80% of your second shot's damage will be wasted by the shield gate mechanic. The viper with its lower damage but much higher fire rate won't suffer that same problem. The viper essentialy makes the shield gate mechanic irrelevant. The sniper rifle damage boost definately makes the vipers DPS higher than the carnifex anyway. Weight is mostly irrelevant on infiltrators too.

Oh, I'm not judging the Viper strictly by its stats.  I've used it since the demo days.  The same goes for the Carnifex.  I only swapped out the Viper for the Valiant on my FQI about two weeks ago.  I was just curious how it was faring now since I didn't have access to the game at the time I wrote the post.