696 réponses à ce sujet

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

zerozen00 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Surely the elite gold speed run players aren't using Batarians

Wrong.

/zen

You cut off the rest of the statement....My point was that certain classes were not being ignored for speed runs based on learning curve. 

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

whateverman7 wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

I think your tired and need some sleep.

Your arguements are getting progressivley worse and the grammar in all of them is atrocious. I have no bias against someones arguements based on grammar up until the point i can hardly understand their arguement due to it. 

lol if you say so....please show my grammatical errors in the last post(hell, any posts)....they might not be structured correctly cause of the '...', but there are no grammatical errors....

as for the argument: it made perfect sense....i've been saying the only thing infils do best is the class allows players to treat the mp like competitive instead of co-op...you posted a line, and then said the samething i've been saying....so i quoted you and pointed that out...

I seriously can only make assumptions on what you're saying. 

 The poor grammar i'm referring to is mostly poor structure. the order of your sentences and words makes it hard to understand certain parts of what you're saying. i'm really not trying to be a grammar **** but i can't understand exactly what your saying in half your sentences.  

[Oceley]

Dokteur Kill wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...
As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

To be honest, I don't think the problem really is with tactical cloak as such. The problem is that tactical cloak is one of three powers (the others being adrenaline rush and marksman) that make weapons effective in gold.

There really aren't that many options for being effective in gold. You have biotic explosions, and then you have weapons with high burst damage coupled with powers that enhance the same damage. Those are really the main options for doing significant damage on gold. And it's not that those classes are too effective in gold, it's that very few of the other classes are effective at all in gold. 

Sustained fire weapons just aren't practically useable, because few of the classes are survivable enough to use them on gold (and the sustained fire weapons are generally not very good). And high-damage weapons are, naturally enough, most effective on the classes that can enhance their damage. The classes that don't have powers that enhance weapon damage don't have other powers that offset that. Pure damage dealing powers like Incinerate and Carnage don't really deal gold-level damage (and are dodged way too often), and they're too difficult to pull off combos with compared to biotics.

I don't think reducing the effectiveness of TC is going to change the composition of gold lobbies. It's just going to make gold more difficult. Personally, I'd start with improving Incinerate, Carnage and Concussive shot significantly, and increasing the base weight capacity of the non-infiltrator classes. Give the non-infiltrators the option to carry weapons that can actually do some damage. That, or increase the survivability of the more tanky classes that don't have powers that give weapon damage bonuses (such as the Krogan, which really need some love).

This

[whateverman7]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

I seriously can only make assumptions on what you're saying. 

 The poor grammar i'm referring to is mostly poor structure. the order of your sentences and words makes it hard to understand certain parts of what you're saying. i'm really not trying to be a grammar **** but i can't understand exactly what your saying in half your sentences.  

lol if you say so...but ok, since you cant understand what i'm saying, guess this is done

on a side note: i now know for a fact this board is too 'high class' for me....i'm done

[Mocchi]

You use an extreme example to make your case?  Elite gold speed runs, do you by chance participate in those?  Are you part of that small percentage of players who do?  I don't think so.  Those people play the game for a different reason, far from the majority of people.  You want a real argument?  You make the case.  You have provided no "Concrete" evidence.  None.  Anything you've provided is circumstantial and hearsay.  And btw, do you know what a tech burst is?  That's why the Asari owns the Drell Adept.

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Mocchi wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Mocchi wrote...

Again, why do we care what other people play when it's proven that any class is effective in the hands of a good player?

Because some are way more effective than others by such a large margin that it turns gold into a joke?

Surely it's not because the some of the other classes have a harder learning curve on gold and people are just lazy?

Surely the elite gold speed run players aren't using Batarians or geth engineers because the learning curve for too hard. 

Surley people haven't factored in learning curve when discussing balance changes and haven't actually run the numbers to see who the highest killing potential classes are. 



Seriously how bout a real arguement? Although i do agree that almost every other class has a higher learning curve than the infilly. It's just too bad few of them have anywhere near the same potential to the infilly. 

Modifié par Mocchi, 22 juin 2012 - 10:04 .

[x Ted Manson x]

What is shock force, that is not damage right?

[Diosjenin]

Oh for the love of... *sigh*

Alright, listen up.  Gold has a very particular set of inherent difficulties.  Enemies spawn in greater numbers, have higher damage output and shield gating, and bosses occur frequently and in groups.  You, meanwhile, receive no extra buffs (without equipment), and are still expected to complete objectives in a timely fashion.

You cannot rush into a large group of enemies and expect to live (hence the lack of Human Vanguards).  You cannot rely on weapons alone to provide you with necessary crowd control (hence the general lack of Soldiers).  You cannot rely on utility weapons with low power output to whittle down your enemy's health at all, especially on armored targets (hence the general lack of Assault Rifles and SMGs).

The two most important skills in Gold (and all other high-difficulty realtime games) are 1) hitting as hard as possible, and 2) knowing when (and how) to run.  Well, guess what - Cloak provides both a powerful damage bonus and an unrivalled stealth capability.  So OF COURSE a plurality of Gold players are Infiltrators; it simply makes sense to play as one.

But the answer to the class distribution problem that inevitably leads to is NOT to make playing as an Infiltrator make less sense.

The answer is to make playing as any other class make more sense.

Leave Cloak alone and buff the lesser-played races/classes instead.  Off the top of my head, I'd say un-nerf biotic explosions and Hunter Mode, knock about half a second off base Charge cooldown, lower the per-shot flat damage reduction on armor, make Tech Burst damage roughly comparable to biotic explosions, and set up every radius-based power so that it actually hits everything within the radius instead of "up to [x] targets."  Engineers also need a boost in general.  They're highly dependent on recharge times, just like Adepts, but their powers are comparatively much weaker - so maybe give Engis a class-specific tech damage buff?

Oh, also, can you PLEASE just change Charge so you're invulnerable during the wind-up frames too?  That would finally get rid of the desync bug, and I guarantee you that would boost Gold Vanguard numbers (at least the Asari/Phoenix variants).

---

I'm N7 level 897, every bit of that from hard play - and I could be higher if I promoted a bit more often.  So understand that I know from experience when I say: Gold mode is hard enough already - balancing class distribution shouldn't suck the fun out of it.

Modifié par Diosjenin, 22 juin 2012 - 10:18 .

[Mocchi]

Bingo.

Diosjenin wrote...

Oh for the love of... *sigh*

Alright, listen up.  Gold has a very particular set of inherent difficulties.  Enemies spawn in greater numbers, have higher damage output and shield gating, and bosses occur frequently and in groups.  You, meanwhile, receive no extra buffs (without equipment), and are still expected to complete objectives in a timely fashion.

You cannot rush into a large group of enemies and expect to live (hence the lack of Human Vanguards).  You cannot rely on weapons alone to provide you with necessary crowd control (hence the general lack of Soldiers).  You cannot rely on utility weapons with low power output to whittle down your enemy's health at all, especially on armored targets (hence the general lack of Assault Rifles).

The two most important skills in Gold (and all other high-difficulty realtime games) are 1) hitting as hard as possible, and 2) knowing when (and how) to run.  Well, guess what - Cloak provides both a powerful damage bonus and an unrivalled stealth capability.  So OF COURSE a plurality of Gold players are Infiltrators; it simply makes sense to play as one.

But the answer to the class distribution problem that inevitably leads to is NOT to make playing as an Infiltrator make less sense.

The answer is to make playing as any other class make more sense.

Leave Cloak alone and buff the lesser-played races/classes instead.  Off the top of my head, I'd say un-nerf biotic explosions and Hunter Mode, knock about half a second off base Charge cooldown, make Tech Burst damage roughly comparable to biotic explosions, and set up every radius-based power so that it actually hits everything within the radius instead of "up to x targets."  Engineers also need a boost in general.  They're highly dependent on recharge times, just like Adepts, but their powers are comparatively much weaker - so maybe give Engis a class-specific tech damage buff?

Oh, also, can you PLEASE just change Charge so you're invulnerable during the wind-up frames too?  That would finally get rid of the desync bug, and I guarantee you that would boost Gold Vanguard numbers (at least the Asari/Phoenix variants).

---

I'm N7 level 897, every bit of that from hard play - and I could be higher if I promoted a bit more often.  So understand that I know from experience when I say: Gold mode is hard enough already - balancing class distribution shouldn't suck the fun out of it.

[Mendelevosa]

Please calm down. They haven't nerfed tactical cloak yet and Fagnan only said Bioware is "considering" to look at the power for the next balance changes. The cloak balance change may never even happen.

[Dokteur Kill]

Diosjenin: +1 for you.

[Define Clarity]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

Eric, if you will, please take a look at my thread on this situation. It'd be greatly appreciated for you guys to see some logical insight on the whole Infiltrator fiasco. Hopefully any of the information will be taken into consideration when you guys review Tactical Cloak.

http://social.biowar...ndex/12683907/1

[corporal doody]

nerfing TC might make gold more difficult??? hmmm

so all those calls for a PLATINUM difficulty will go away?
and people whining about how GOLD is sooooo easy?

NERF IT LIKE THERE WAS NO TOMORROW!!

Modifié par corporal doody, 22 juin 2012 - 10:26 .

[Mevanna]

Chris Schanche wrote...

There was discussion a long time ago about Cryo Blast not actually causing armor debuff. It was all conjecture since I don't think anyone wanted to really spend the time data mining it.

If that's changed, or if I'm in error, I'll certainly take back my argument about not doing anything to armored enemies. That said, I don't believe it's actually working as intended.

And in addition, you're quite right that other powers add the same debuffs while also doing a heck of a lot more on top of that.

But yes... *deep breath* Looking forward to running tests on the cryo blast.

I ran a few checks to confirm things for you folks.  Cryo Blast is correctly applying both its damage bonuses, as well as its armor reduction bonuses.  Giving it some level of damage bonus against normal enemies, and a more substantial one in most cases against armored targets.  I confirmed for you folks that its providing its damage bonus evolutions against unarmored targets as well as armored targets.

I compared with other powers as well, Cryo Blast can provide you a 25% damage bonus, before adding in armor weakness.  Warp provides a 15% damage bonus, before adding in armor weakness.  Cryo Blast may not be a point maker, but it certainly provides some strong utility to your team.

Happy hunting!

I know this is not entirely related, but I've always wanted to know... is it deliberate that Cryo explosions or the Cryo/Incinerate combo only applies to frozen targets, not chilled ones? At least the bonus damage on Incinerate should really apply to both, since especially on Gold, there are very few targets you can actually freeze.

[Gornok]

So if we use more soldiers on gold you would find a way to mess that up to? Bad enough they don't fix the many glitches of the game, but they are concerned as to what class is played the most in gold and not fix the issues in which we don't play the other races?

Where is your attention to Vanguards? People would play more with them if the glitches which were supposed to be fixed were fixed.
How about ensuring my weapon fires rounds which hit the enemy? We still get ghost projectile firing, and that's even if you host.
The reason why people use the infiltrators the most is because of the many issues which you still haven't fixed with the other classes or botched so bad that its not viable on gold... which is your point.

This is the only company which could pull so much fail out of a victory

Modifié par Gornok, 22 juin 2012 - 10:29 .

[cg8900]

don't change TC it's fine the way it is!!

[JaceNowater]

I think we are all forgetting something very important. THIS IS A CO-OP GAME! Please stop with these nerfs. I mean Sabotage needed to be nerfed... and I could sort of understand the hunter mode cause people could see through walls and exploit stuff but Tactical cloak is fine. If anything it needs to hide you better. I'm tired of being shot at by people who can see me cross map cloaked. We need to stop being such a fussy community and just worry about buffing weapons that need it, *cough cough* Eagle, and work on fixing issues like glitching geth that are unkillable after you pull them over the wall, invisi-banshees, Vanguards getting glitched out for lunging while dying and crap like that! Those are fixes that are important not retolling Tactical cloak! I hope you honestly listen to my reply and take to consideration what I have said!

Thank you BSN!

Modifié par JaceNowater, 22 juin 2012 - 10:44 .

[MacGarrus]

Razerath wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

Mess with TCloak too much and you'll lose this player right here.

The reason people are still using the Infiltrator is obviously because of it's damage output. The problem is that it is already fairly balanced considering the health and shields Infiltrators get. But when you add something like the Krysae...

Just make sure that no matter what you do, only nerf rank 6 damage. Ok? It's the only trouble spot. Otherwise you're going to mess with perfectly decent builds like the GPS/Claymore/Saber/Melee.

A Geth Infiltrator has the same health and shields as a Geth Engineer. Would you ever consider the Geth Engineer overpowered? Yes, weakening TC will make your job harder as an infiltrator but last time i checked Infiltrators weren't exactly struggling to begin with.  

[darkpassenger2342]

JaceNowater wrote...

I think we are all forgetting something very important. THIS IS A CO-OP GAME! Please stop with these nerfs. I mean Sabotage needed to be nerfed... and I could sort of understand the hunter mode cause people could see through walls and exploit stuff but Tactical cloak is fine. If anything it needs to hide you better. I'm tired of being shot at by people who can see me cross map cloaked. We need to stop being such a fussy community and just worry about buffing weapons that need it, *cough cough* Eagle, and work on fixing issues like glitching geth that are unkillable after you pull them over the wall, invisi-banshees, Vanguards getting glitched out for lunging while dying and crap like that! Those are fixes that are important not retolling Tactical cloak! I hope you honestly listen to my reply and take to consideration what I have said!

Thank you BSN!

"If anything it needs to hide you better. I'm tired of being shot at by people who can see me cross map cloaked. "
 yeah, what you dont realize is that when they do stop shooting at you, they go after your teammates.
the list of infiltrator advantages is long, and dumping your aggro on your squadmates is one of them.

Modifié par darkpassenger2342, 22 juin 2012 - 10:48 .

[Major Tao]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

Even though it hasn't happened yet..... I find myself resenting the suggestion that one class's abilities might be weakened - for EVERY LEVEL of play - due to the Balance Committee's desire to create more challenge - for ONE LEVEL OF PLAY. 

While I appreciate Bioware's interest in seeking a balance between challenge and fun, it seems too often to me that for a number of very vocal forum members "the world revolves around Gold".  These folks are so vocal and so vociferous that their many, many, many, comments, concerns, demands, pleas, and heartfelt prayers for this or that might be pulling developers attention from the many players who play more often at levels other than Gold. 

Surely Bioware developers don't ALSO think that Gold level play is the entirety of the game...or there wouldn't be various levels of play to choose from. 

If players are choosing Infiltrators in Gold play - gee - maybe that's because they feel that is an effective class at that level of challenge.  

If the Beyond Gold level - which I will call TITANIUM LEVEL - were ever to come to pass - do you think that players preferences would change any ?  

Why is the percentage of players who choose to play a particular class defined as "overly large" ? 
Is the "Balance Committee"  against a players right to choose a class ? 
Is it really necessary to COMPEL players to play as other classes ? 

Rather than reducing the effectiveness of one class's powers - how about raising the effectiveness of other classes so they might be even more viable in Gold ? 

( I can imagine the developer response to that. )
 "Well... we want the Gold level to be REALLY CHALLENGING for EVERY class."     

My response:  "Well - that's the ONLY class that can turn invisible to recover health + shields,  and then deliver a tremendous blow to an enemy as a bonus. The classes you've devised are DIVERSE and have great variety of abilities and powers....yet currently - no one else can cloak !"  

Hey - how about a tactical cloak pack that can be picked up by OTHER classES on the battlefield ?  Maybe......like rockets, and medigel, a player could only use it ( _ )  number of times in a game ?   Because the other classes aren't infiltrator - they wouldn't get the damage bonus unique to that class - but they could escape, recover health + shields and return to the fight. 

Now you've got me curious about the percentages of other classes players are sending into the battlefield on Gold.
What is the breakdown ? 

Disclosure:  At this time I most enjoy playing at the Silver level.
The Infiltrator class is fun to play  - yet it is not my favorite.  
However, I DO VALUE  Infiltrators and very much appreciate their support on my team ! 

I WANT MY INFILTRATOR TEAMMATES TO KEEP EFFECTIVE POWERS ! 

[MikeSlackenerny]

Haven't read all the posts in this thread but just want to
add my two cents as to why I think there are many infiltrators on gold matches.

I think Diosjenin got it spot on.

In short, it's very difficult to be effective with your automatic weapons in
gold matches.

If the armor rating of a ravager is indeed 8100 in a gold match as I've found
from another post in the Bioware forum, the weapon damage for say a gun like a
level 1 Striker is indeed about 145, and damage reduction from armor is indeed
50, then it takes about 49 shots to take down a single ravager (assuming 25%
weapon damage from passive power and 25% for barrel in weapon mod, not using
armor piercing mod and ammo power). Sure the game is about teamwork and
everything but the above is just a single ravager. With everything happening in
wave 10 in a gold match?

In a gold match there are many many more of these VIPs with large defence
ratings that take a lot more shots to take down.

In my opinion, it's very difficult to use the automatic weapons in the game as
an effective attack force in a gold match. You can combine using adrenaline
rush (with 70% damage bonus) with an automatic weapon, where you can enjoy a longer
damage bonus period compared with the tactical cloak therefore is more suitable
for using an automatic weapon, but you will be completely exposed to incoming
fire while you are shooting (you can't shoot at something without exposing
yourself to get shot at). I know, because I also wanted to contribute in a gold
match without playing as an infiltrator, but I quickly found out I was very
exposed when I tried to keep a constant stream of fire on those VIPs. I mean,
you’ve got to put the mayhem associated with a gold match into account. There
are Pyros around the corner and you just have to run.

I don’t think the infiltrators are overpowered. The other
classes are underpowered. Specifically, the automatic weapons in the game are
underpowered. You wouldn’t see an infiltrator using an assault rifle, would
you? To be an effective contributor in a gold match you need to carry weapons
that pack a large punch instead of a high rate of fire. The automatic weapons
are good for giving you more kills and xps in bronze, but not in gold. And I
actually thought that was how Bioware intended the automatic weapons in the
multiplayer to be, to have them for the bronze matches to get experience.

All is not lost though. I think the adepts and engineers are
still very capable in their support class roles; but you simply need to have an
infiltrator in a gold match.

And while we are talking about balance can I also bring up
one point: of all the gold matches that have been completed by the community,
how many level 20 characters are there compared to the lower characters? I
mean, you earn more xps in a gold match for sure, but if it’s already as hard
as it is, it’s only necessary for most players to use a level 20
character (hell I wouldn’t want to play with someone who is using a level 12
soldier with a N7 level less than 200 going into a gold match, I would simply assume
the person doesn’t know what he/she’s getting into), which means for these
players the higher experience you earn from playing a gold match becomes a moot
point anyway. This essentially nullifies one of the “incentives” for playing a
gold match. If you want more players playing on gold, that’s something you
should look at.

Modifié par MikeSlackenerny, 22 juin 2012 - 11:06 .

[mcjihge2]

Dont nerf the infiltrator, buff the other classes. Make positive changes rather than negative ones.

Modifié par mcjihge2, 22 juin 2012 - 10:52 .

[Define Clarity]

mcjihge2 wrote...

Dont nerf the infiltrator, buff the other classes. Make positive changes rather than negative ones.

"Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for."

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, seriously though.

[zerozen00]

mcjihge2 wrote...

Dont nerf the infiltrator, buff the other classes. Make positive changes rather than negative ones.

Exactly. If you don't have the manpower to do it at once, take all the time you need. No pressure.
We'll be playing while we wait.

/zen

Modifié par zerozen00, 22 juin 2012 - 10:56 .

[Heldarion]

Roses are red, violets are blue
everyone plays infiltrator
and so should you.

Seriously though, do something about Krysae instead. That thing doesn't feel like a sniper rifle and is just retarded. I hate the weapon and use Widow instead.

[Poison_Berrie]

Diosjenin wrote...

Leave Cloak alone and buff the lesser-played races/classes instead.  Off the top of my head, I'd say un-nerf biotic explosions and Hunter Mode, knock about half a second off base Charge cooldown, lower the per-shot flat damage reduction on armor, make Tech Burst damage roughly comparable to biotic explosions, and set up every radius-based power so that it actually hits everything within the radius instead of "up to [x] targets."  Engineers also need a boost in general.  They're highly dependent on recharge times, just like Adepts, but their powers are comparatively much weaker - so maybe give Engis a class-specific tech damage buff?

Biotic Explosion still have the biggest damage potential and Hunter mode is still a good situational awareness tool with weapon/power buffs.
Tech Burst do the same base damage as BEs, over a larger diameter.
Damage Reduction is only 50 points of damage.

Certain powers or classes could do with a bonus, but many people seem to be underestimating the viability of a lot of classes on Gold.