696 réponses à ce sujet

[megawug]

RecoonHoodie wrote...

Infiltrator got the 16.7 from the Vanguards, which are never used...

Yeah, fix the dang vanguard glitch!!!  Haven't played AV at all in last month or two.  No kidding the stats are skewed!

[Kenadian]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

You know, I'd rest easy just knowing there was someone in the devs who was an Infiltrator lover like the rest of us. Defend our child.

Oh don't worry the class is the favorite of many of the developers.

This is good news, good news indeed.

[humes spork]

tMc Tallgeese wrote...

The high percentage of infiltrators is due to its versatility...

In theory, you're right, and I honestly believe if the majority of people playing infiltrator were doing it for its versatility and actually being team players by utilizing that versatility, there'd be a whole lot less complaining. As it is, the majority of people playing infiltrators -- at least, this is very much the case in my three-and-a-half-months' worth of experience across all difficulties -- don't. They play the class to kill fast, and if they consider themselves part of a team at all that's a subordinate consideration to "kill stuff fast".

Which means, more often than not, the other players in the team are left taking more fire from elites infiltrators aren't prioritizing because they can't be one-shot, and from bosses infiltrators aren't kiting or controlling despite being the most-suited to do the job. And when they go down, aren't being revived by infiltrators, and objectives are left uncompleted because teammates are pinned down, because neither is "killing stuff". No other class can screw over a team quite like an infiltrator can, even while no other class can benefit a team like an infiltrator can.

[.458]

tMc Tallgeese wrote...

The high percentage of infiltrators is due to its versatility. An infiltrator kills, revives, grabs objectives and gives the team a high powered precision strike option. Tactical cloak is an essential tool of the infiltrator's arsenal and despite many player's complaints, it is not overpowered.

Tactical cloak's reputation is biased because of the way that most non-infiltrators view it's buffing to the sniper damage. In the same respect, you could argue that combat drones, Geth turrets, hunter mode, adrenaline rush, grenades, and ballistic blades, biotic charge/nova and stasis are all over-powering in the right hands. I've spent a lot of time in each of the classes and have found that each of them have at least one build that can unleash an unstoppable wave of destruction. Should each of them be "rebalanced" because I can find them to be over-powering?

I realize that many cry out for the infiltrator to be nerfed, but I have a different suggestion, give each class a power buff specific to a weapon class. Instead of only offering a weight reduction, give the classes a boost to weapon damage equal to 15-20%. This gives all classes a power that many find they are lacking and allows the infiltrator community to remain as it is.

Adept - Pistol
Soldier - ALL WEAPONS :innocent:
Engineer - Shotgun/SMG
Sentinel - Assault Rifle/Pistol
Vanguard - Shotgun/Pistol

I would like to thank BioWare for considering the community's input.

I SOOOO agree with this! Add to it that all of the dangerous stuff sees through TC, and even husks run straight up to it and seem to see right through it. Definitely TC gives an edge, but a lot less than the naysayers are suggesting. Here is what I see as the main part as to why the infiltrators do so well:

The feeling that it is proper to not play stupidly, yet to take risks otherwise not taken. I play quarian male infiltrator a lot, and I take risks I otherwise would not take...they have NO relevance to the weapon, and in those circumstances I rely heavily on the "8" button and grenades with the +5 grenade capacity equipment. I rely on tactical scan to know where the bad guys are in situations I otherwise would not go into. The cloak never seems to actually keep the enemy from seeing me more than a very short moment, long enough to get away with things like rescuing someone else or capping an objective. But when I play a soldier or adept, I've discovered I can normally and successfully run past the bad guys just as well...not quite as easy, but much easier than those not playing with it would think. The main damage done for MQI is from grenades and having the guts to try things you would not otherwise try. Give my MQI the harrier assault rifle and not penalize him, and he will do MORE on score. No damage bonus required.

This game fails to itemize or display damage done. It shows only this idiotic score with components like final kill and not damage done. It is unfair and not possible to judge what it is that really makes the TC help without this, and would result in different arguments than what the total score shows. BW please give us a score breakdown, just about every other game does it...the most successful ones do, like WoW or StarCraft. Managing to kill the willingness to actually survive while hurting the willingness to take risk is the wrong way to balance things. It should be a huge clue that because so many people play this, it isn't a problem, it is successful. Find a way to give the other classes confidence and reason to take risks (not stupid ones...the infiltrator TC gets us to test limits, not rush to die).

Modifié par .458, 22 juin 2012 - 03:17 .

[tMc Tallgeese]

Quite true, humes spork. Infiltrators have gained a largely poor reputation for kill hogging and lone wolfing. It is an unfortunate by-product of players more interested in singular performance than teamwork. However, I still believe that the best way to level the playing field is to create a weapon buff/speciliazation for each class so those classes have more of an equal footing. I know my suggestion is unpopular, but I do think it has the potential to help more than hurt the community.

[Mgamerz]

Can we report threads about TC nerfing? I mean, every single one of them can go into this thread. I'd like to be able to actually get some useful information on the board but it doesn't look like anyone has anything to say except to whine about TC.

[cuzIMgood]

Nice changes, can't wait to see what is in store for the infiltrator next week. Hopefully a damage nerf on tc.

[humes spork]

tMc Tallgeese wrote...

Quite true, humes spork. Infiltrators have gained a largely poor reputation for kill hogging and lone wolfing. It is an unfortunate by-product of players more interested in singular performance than teamwork. However, I still believe that the best way to level the playing field is to create a weapon buff/speciliazation for each class so those classes have more of an equal footing. I know my suggestion is unpopular, but I do think it has the potential to help more than hurt the community.

I'm in partial agreement with you, but I do think this particular community-related issue is to actually give tactical cloak a 20-30% damage bonus nerf and in the meantime give adrenaline rush a damage bonus buff. Put the two powers on rough parity in terms of damage dealt and a lot of these community-related problems will disappear.

Essentially, manipulate the bads into playing a class that doesn't actively screw over the team when played badly.

[SpiffyNova]

Mgamerz wrote...

Can we report threads about TC nerfing? I mean, every single one of them can go into this thread. I'd like to be able to actually get some useful information on the board but it doesn't look like anyone has anything to say except to whine about TC.

This, please.  Over half of the threads on the first page are about this. That is all that is going to be on the forum for the next week and probably another week after that because of whatever changes happen.

[.458]

tMc Tallgeese wrote...

Quite true, humes spork. Infiltrators have gained a largely poor reputation for kill hogging and lone wolfing. It is an unfortunate by-product of players more interested in singular performance than teamwork. However, I still believe that the best way to level the playing field is to create a weapon buff/speciliazation for each class so those classes have more of an equal footing. I know my suggestion is unpopular, but I do think it has the potential to help more than hurt the community.

Equal footing does not require hurting infiltrators. I certainly don't kill hog or lone wolf. Someone once mentioned something about how it was more of a crime to hurt the innocent in pursuit of the guilty than it was to let the guilty go. What do you think would happen if after the TC nerf infiltrators were given the same weight reduction on assault rifles instead of sniper rifles, and they all started carrying non-buffed cerberus harriers instead? Be very careful about what you destroy in this ecosystem by breaking something that has more effect than just what is intended. Something needs to be done, but the confidence given by playing infiltrator needs to be added to others, not taken from infiltrators. Sure, fewer infiltrators might be played, including the ones who are not kill hogs. Including the ones that help the team. Ever hear the saying "The operation was a success, but the patient died"? Technical perfection is how you lose the war and lose the better team players.

[tMc Tallgeese]

You're probably right, humes spork. Just waiting to see what has been done when the dust settles. Hopefully BioWare comes up with an interesting solution that will satisfy most people, but I do often forget that complaining is in their nature regardless of what is done.

[tMc Tallgeese]

Spork, how haven't I run into you on MP? You are on Xbox?

[The Final Warrior]

I'm crossposting this from the Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer Thread on RPG.net, where we've had some discussion regarding the utilities of Tactical Cloak on Gold.

Link to the first relevant post: http://forum.rpg.net...73#post15569473

Final Warrior wrote...

Bluuurgh, I don't wanna badmouth my favorite class! D:

Beri wrote...

A limitation to how soon you can cloak after taking damage?

This wouldn't help. Cloak in ME3 does not work like Cloak in ME2. If you're being shot at while you Cloak, the enemy isn't going to suddenly stop shooting you. In fact, they don't even need to be shooting you when you Cloak - if you openly Cloak right in front of them, they will know where you are. I've died to Marauders countless times because of this. (I think Marauders and Pyros have the most kills on me.)

J. H. Frank wrote...

Reduce the damage boost.  The damage boost is ****ing crazy good.

More specifically, they need to rework the damage boost duration. It feels like the intent of the damage boost is "for the one attack that breaks Cloak", but in practice, it's like, what, a whole second of +90% damage (and an additional +40% if you're using a sniper rifle)? You can deal out a ridiculous amount of punishment in that time with a Proximity Mine + Krysae, or Proximity Mine + Widow.

wingedcoyote wrote...

Cloak especially deserves to be looked at because its actual utility is so non-obvious to so many players. A new player watching an experienced Infiltrator player could easily think he was cheating or hacking -- why the heck do all his powers have the same, very short recharge time? Even before looking at the damage boost, I'd make Cloak always use its full recharge even if canceled quickly and/or remove the element where it supercedes the recharge of other powers.

(Emphasis mine.)

I agree with the latter but not the former (as the former really punishes Infiltrators for using Cloak for its offensive capability). It feels like the "Cloak GCD supersedes power GCD" thing is a bug that BioWare either thought wouldn't horrendously unbalance the class, or hasn't noticed for the past three months.

braincraft wrote...

I'd venture that the overabundance of Cloak has less to do with its offensive supremacy than with its broad defensive utility. On Gold, the higher numbers of insta-killing minibosses and inflated damage ratios make strategies based on taking hits almost worthless; even basic enemies will murder the hardest-specced Kroguard in seconds if he's caught in the open. This makes evasion-based defenses like cover and Cloak exploitation not only powerful but necessary. Everyone playing Gold needs at least one Infiltrator to hit objectives. It also means that many classes and builds are underrepresented in higher difficulties. Characters without good dodge movement require much more skill to play when you don't have a cushion of health to cover for missteps.

A whole lot of this. Gold's damage ratio is such that the tankiest, most hardened class last more-or-less the same amount of time under fire as a 6/6/6/6/0 Gethfiltrator running Hunter Mode, except that the Gethfiltrator has superior offensive capabilities (because Cloak) and evasion capabilities (again, because Cloak).

braincraft wrote...

There's not much reason to wreck class balance for thousands of players because a few dozen hardcore guys throw the curve.

(Emphasis mine.)

I think this may be misrepresenting the severity of the issue. 33.6% of Gold isn't "a few dozen hardcore guys" (especially if you've ever seen the performances of some of those "hardcore guys". Ergh).

-- Griffinhart

Modifié par The Final Warrior, 22 juin 2012 - 03:30 .

[Princess Rolf]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

Well Eric, that´s mostly because you can´t play Vanguards because they´re glitched. Then there´s the ones that can´t dodge (Krogan, Turian, Batarian), so there is even less of a choice to play with. That leaves two classes ( Infils and Adepts) that work, and a couple of chars from the other classes all together. Not that strange to see that there are 1/3 Infils, when they are 1/3 of all playable chars on Gold.

[ntrisley]

Gockey wrote...

MajesticKill wrote...

hooray! Bioware listens to like 50 people who have voiced a negative opinion about tactical cloak. Must be the majority.

Congratulations on being a troll.  The people who have been posting regarding tac cloak being OP have provided numbers and explained over and over what the problems are compared to other classes, only to be confronted by noobs like yourself who must need it as a crutch (either personally or as someone in your match).

Except those people who have been posting regarding it don't ever provide the specifics of their information; and have only been providing it since the introduction of the Krysae.

Tac cloaks been broken.  And as I have been saying for weeks, a nerf is incoming.  We were all just debating degrees of severity.

Tac Cloak's been broken since the introduction of the Krysae.
The Krysae is the problem. That gun never should have made it into the game in its current state.

Lol at the people who ever thought otherwise.

Lol at the people who think anecdotal evidence is irrefutable evidence.

[Blind2Society]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

I wish it was that easy. Granted, one person could quickly go through and change a bunch of numbers, but the testing required is really demanding. 

That may be true but it seems you could also just let us do the testing for you;)

Also, who says you have to buff all other classes all at once? Just keep doing what you're doing, maybe step is up a bit, but basically just buff one class and a gun or two a week. Pretty soon all classes wold be as gold viable as the infiltrator. I also think making headshots bypass shieldgate would be good as it would reward skill and make SRs a more viable option for classes other than infiltrators.

I would suggest having a look at the survivability of the Phoenix Adept on gold first (seems to me a much more pressing matter than infiltrators).

Modifié par Blind2Society, 22 juin 2012 - 03:57 .

[im25son]

I mainly play 3 classes, infiltrator, engineer and adept. occasionally sentinel and soldier.

I would say my play time for the 3 classes are respectively 30%, 20%, 35%.

Am I 'overly using' infiltrator? dun think so

What I want to say is, only a minority of ppl play a 'single class'. Infiltrator is a good class, and if every one of the majority has certain share of their time playing as infiltrator, of course the % would be something like 33%, but that doesn't mean it is 'overly large'.

[shadowkinz]

Hope u guys don't inadvertently nerf the unconventional infil builds, like shotty and incisors etc

[Deviean]

As an Infiltrator, almost exclusively(i prefer rogue-type characters in all games, if i have a choice),i'm prepared to negotiate and frankly, we need a compromise.

So, as an Infiltrator, i suggest :

a) Shorten the delay before the TC breaks, make sure BW, Krysae and Valiant(i don't have one though, so maybe it will require RoF adjustment) will get ONLY ONE SHOT while cloaked. Leave some room for burst-type weapons.

Remove the "3-seconds recharge time" feature if an Infiltrator fires immediately after the TC was activated. If people want to use heavy sniper rifles, they have to follow the weight reduction path.

P.S I would also like to remind that the TC breaks immediately after a successful revive. Just as a side note.

Modifié par Deviean, 22 juin 2012 - 04:17 .

[Megakoresh]

if you "nerf" TC the same way you "nerfed" Krysae it will make the game worse again. Before running and doing changes think of what is the real issue. People use infiltrators because you made them the only class capable of successfully destroying armour. And armour is what makes gold so difficult. Asari can work, but they are incredibly boring, hence people use infilitrators.

If you make it such that TC will not not give such a big damage buff, it will only elongate matches. Same way as decreased damage on Krysae made it more boring but in no way less powerful, since you nerfed damage instead of the no-aim projectile size.

[ThirdChild ZKI]

llandwynwyn wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

The reason many play inf. on Gold is that many classes are useless there, with a inf. you know you're prepared to anything. Buff the other classes, and I'm not talking about their turret/drone. Even with the buff nobody sane will bring their QFE or HE to U/U/G.

--
Oh, and if you're going to nerf it, at least fix the TC bugs. Oh, nevermind, wait, fixing what is broken. ha ha

I play my QFE all the time, especially on Gold. It's all in how you use them. I scout/dispatch low level enemies with the turret, tech burst where and when I can, snipe primarily, and anything else can say hi to my Paladin VIII.

I'm not knocking Infiltrator use, but it really has become the crutch for many players, much like Vanguards were in the beginning. If there's a way they can balance the scales (so that you don't join matches with at least 2 GIs almost every time), I would welcome it. I enjoyed playing the Infiltrator class. . . then everyone started doing it.

[nyadnar]

Here is an idea. Change the percentage bonus to flat bonus damage, have it only affect the first shot, and have that shot able to set off Tech Explosions.

You a) stop having to worry about balancing weapons based on TC, encourage Infiltrators to actually work with their team, c) help bring the usefulness of Tech Explosions in line with biotic explosions.

[tMc Tallgeese]

@Nyadnar--Interesting suggestion. Might have some promise.

[UkGouki]

tbh tac cloak nerf wont affect me because i play aja but i spose that will be hit next.... tbh im getting fed up with the nerf this buff that threads why not just keep the game how it comes not every player is on godmode playing the game as intended only the uber elite can solo gold....

[IronRush]

tMc Tallgeese wrote...

The high percentage of infiltrators is due to its versatility. An infiltrator kills, revives, grabs objectives and gives the team a high powered precision strike option. Tactical cloak is an essential tool of the infiltrator's arsenal and despite many player's complaints, it is not overpowered.

Tactical cloak's reputation is biased because of the way that most non-infiltrators view it's buffing to the sniper damage. In the same respect, you could argue that combat drones, Geth turrets, hunter mode, adrenaline rush, grenades, and ballistic blades, biotic charge/nova and stasis are all over-powering in the right hands. I've spent a lot of time in each of the classes and have found that each of them have at least one build that can unleash an unstoppable wave of destruction. Should each of them be "rebalanced" because I can find them to be over-powering?

I realize that many cry out for the infiltrator to be nerfed, but I have a different suggestion, give each class a power buff specific to a weapon class. Instead of only offering a weight reduction, give the classes a boost to weapon damage equal to 15-20%. This gives all classes a power that many find they are lacking and allows the infiltrator community to remain as it is.

Adept - Pistol
Soldier - ALL WEAPONS :innocent:
Engineer - Shotgun/SMG
Sentinel - Assault Rifle/Pistol
Vanguard - Shotgun/Pistol

I would like to thank BioWare for considering the community's input.

Versatility?
Versatility to best survive, best damage output, best caping, best to revive, all the things in the game?
It isnt versatility. In fact, it has another name. Versatility is to be good at all points, not best by far.
Infiltrators cant have best damage in the game. Tactical cloak need to be a tool to survive. Not the best tool in the game to output damage.