696 réponses à ce sujet

[Miriad]

This thread is enormous, so I wont be going through 25 pages at this point. I will however point to something that is questionable on infiltrators with regards to tactical cloak: the amount of time one receives the damage bonus after an attack is triggered. I know I personally use this so called feature a lot, as it allows multiple attacks to get the enormous cloaked damage bonus with or without the level 6 evolution.

Also this class was meant to be tethered by shield gate, but the prevalence of shotgun infiltrators and how brutally effective they are subtracts from the reasons the shield gate was put into place. Its hard to justify shield gate on something as difficult to fire as a javelin, and then give an invisible user the ability to sneak up to a critter and headshots. Actually important pretty sure shield gate exists almost exclusively to reduce infiltrator damage, as no other class does enough damage to really be affected by it.

And yes you are on the money in saying people play the infiltrator for its myriad of utility feature AND damage bonuses.

[Siliboy]

"We love TC because it makes Gold easy!" FFS, It's gold, it's meant to be hard

molecularman wrote...

Lol @ everybody pretending balancing infiltrators would make them useless. If you don't want to lose your godly power go play a lower difficulty and let others have some challenge from gold

This

[IronRush]

Together fix TC, shield gate mechanics need to be adjust also.
How I said early, one shot snipers need to surpass shield gate small percentage on gold. 15-25%.

[Ziegrif]

EDIT: Fine Fine. Nvm me.

Modifié par Ziegrif, 22 juin 2012 - 11:05 .

[Scarlet_Meister]

Skipping the discussion about Infiltrators, the changes for Sentry Turret are very good!
It feels pretty powerful now and is actually supporting me when I place it. Just played a random Silver game and Geth turned up (not actually the QFE's historical friend imo), so I thought my 'storm in, freeze everything, then Hurricane it' strategy wouldn't work.
That turret fires its rockets so fast now that it actually keeps those Hunters and Rocket Troopers from stunlocking me! Also provides a nice distraction and, best of all, it kills things now (got over 50 tech kills with it)! I'd really like to try the electric shock evolution, but the armor 100% armor effectiveness is just so nice with the upgraded damage I think I'll postpone that

So I wanted to say a big Thanks for those buffs, maybe I'll take my unused Arc Pistol out next to try it post buff and finally have a lore friendly Quarian Engineer

[Longhammer808]

Please leave Tactical Cloak alone. Think of the children.

[BobWalt]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

hippojoe wrote...

riight. this part of mp  is quite fun to many people, possibly too fun, at least compared to other parts.

well, it would cost too much to make the rest of the game as fun, so lets just make that part less fun, that's what people want, less fun.....right?

That's pretty much how I took it as well.

And let's examine this "manpower" thing shall we? If all these weekly balance changes are just basically coalesced changes why is it that BioWare doesn't have the man power? It seems to me that one competent person with a coalesced editor could do it in a week, and that's including searching for the relevant values that need to be changed. And if it's simply coming up with the right things to change and how, look at what the Balance all the things thread did in a couple of days.

It just doesn't seem like a legit argument to me. But then again, I'm certainly not an expert.

I wish it was that easy. Granted, one person could quickly go through and change a bunch of numbers, but the testing required is really demanding. 

Are any of these changes tested in the field?  I see a lot of mini updates are these trial tests?  If you guys are not field testing I am sure many of us would be happy to test the changes out ahead of time for you.  I am sure there are many QA people happy to donate their time for the love of the game.

[BobWalt]

sTrYkZ1LLa wrote...

Which dev was rocking a valiant x in silver? No wonder they think infiltrators are op haha.

Now the Viper is almost as good as a Valiant.

[GGW KillerTiger]

Lrn2Balance Fagnan

[Miriad]

The answer for the infiltrator issue may be found in the level 4 evolution alone. What percentage of people dont go for +90% damage?? That damage bonus, combined with being.. Well cloaked... Is what puts them over the top.

[ultima2006]

RecoonHoodie wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

ultima2006 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

Yay!! you are looking into buffing TC then? it makes perfect sense to me and to the overly large percentage of gold players that do play the game.

On the other hand, if you want to get rid of your players, by all means, listen to the minority of players that want to nerf it because they obviously think there's no other way any other person could be a better player than them.

If you really want to get rid of complaints, please take this constructive feedback: get rid of the scores and show only the team's totals.

I'm not sure you read or thought about what The Fagnan wrote.  He wrote 33.6% of players on Gold use Infiltrator.  There are 6 different classes in multiplayer.  If all classes were used equally, Infiltrator, and all classes, would each be used 16.7%.  The fact that Infiltrator is used TWICE as much as this screams imbalance.  I understand it's unlikely to get to where all classes have equal utility in the game, but for one of six classes to make up a full 1/3 of what people play is just too high.

Infiltrator got the 16.7 from the Vanguards, which are never used...

^this, and also, :ph34r:s are cool, I mostly play engineers or adepts in gold, however, I really like TC because it makes me feel like a . I would assume 3 out of 10 people likes ninjas as well and choose to play as them because it is fun... if everyone starts liking the AA will they nerf them too? What about the Krogan?
I've encountered FWGG matches comprised almost entirely of infiltrators and engineers and I would like to see what percentage of matches outside of FWGG actually use infiltrators... and if people do use them... then please leave them alone...
To me, it's as if BW had given us a chihuahua (yes, the dog), we fed him, played with him, cleaned after him and we even called him Rambo; yes, Rambo the chihuahua was the best dog in the world UNTIL... BW came back, noticed us having a great time with Rambo and then carefully took Rambo, placed him in his lap and stabbed Rambo in the <3, right there, in front of us... then with a smile, BW would tell us: "There you go, fixed it for you"
IS THIS FOR REAL? LET RAMBO LIVE! ... let Rambo live, please:crying:

[vkt62]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Razerath wrote...

saxybeast418 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

This is very interesting. If tactical cloak was really the source of the problem, wouldn't the overuse of infiltrators be across all difficulties instead primarily Gold (and to a lesser extent Silver)?

Perhaps I'm misreading the data, but this seems to indicate not that Infiltrators are overperforming, but that the other classes are underperforming.

+1 Eric please reply to this! I'd like to know your opinion on why Infiltrators shine on Gold.

Is it because TCloak can provide ( combined with the right weapons ) the best way to beat Gold and farm some credits?

Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

Atleast nerf the enemies. We are already having hell
in silver and gold matches after your buffs to the enemies.
Or for the next 5 weeks you can buff one character type every week rather than nerfing the infiltrator.
And please add a reason to finish the extraction since most people who have their characters at level 20 don't have a reason to do so.

Modifié par vkt62, 22 juin 2012 - 06:03 .

[vkt62]

BobWalt wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

hippojoe wrote...

riight. this part of mp  is quite fun to many people, possibly too fun, at least compared to other parts.

well, it would cost too much to make the rest of the game as fun, so lets just make that part less fun, that's what people want, less fun.....right?

That's pretty much how I took it as well.

And let's examine this "manpower" thing shall we? If all these weekly balance changes are just basically coalesced changes why is it that BioWare doesn't have the man power? It seems to me that one competent person with a coalesced editor could do it in a week, and that's including searching for the relevant values that need to be changed. And if it's simply coming up with the right things to change and how, look at what the Balance all the things thread did in a couple of days.

It just doesn't seem like a legit argument to me. But then again, I'm certainly not an expert.

I wish it was that easy. Granted, one person could quickly go through and change a bunch of numbers, but the testing required is really demanding. 

Are any of these changes tested in the field?  I see a lot of mini updates are these trial tests?  If you guys are not field testing I am sure many of us would be happy to test the changes out ahead of time for you.  I am sure there are many QA people happy to donate their time for the love of the game.

I believe we are the field testers once we get the updates.

[WolfWyrm]

It would NOT be a good idea to change a class due to it being a favorite with the fans. I'm not sure how far back you guys are looking at the percentage of Infiltrators being played on gold, (Since beta? After the last DLC which introduced the Krysea and the Reager weapons?) but if you're going about it in order to control what players play, as some have suggested in this thread, you might accidentally shoot yourself in the foot.

Also consider how unique your multiplayer game is compared to those other multiplayer war games out there,besides the fact that this one is not a PVP. Many players may just like a class they are somewhat use to playing. What's the percentage of snipers in those games?

The infiltrator is just a very good class all around, very versatile, and has way less problems than the other classes in this game. THAT is why it's so popular in my opinion. So don't fix something that's not broken.

I know that nerfing Tactical Cloak would be easier to do than to work on fixing some of the other classes (*cough* Vanguard Glitch *cough*) but that's merely a short-term solution. And to do this may make a lot of players quit playing the game all together, so be careful.

Just my two cents.

[Mgamerz]

Post edited (and removed obsolete content)

Modifié par Mgamerz, 22 juin 2012 - 11:30 .

[Sovereign24]

People act as though any potential TC nerf will make infiltrators useless.

They'll probably still be one of the most powerful classes, and the most played.

[alayyubi]

Sovereign24 wrote...

People act as though any potential TC nerf will make infiltrators useless.

They'll probably still be one of the most powerful classes, and the most played.

I think people are just nervous, like the nerf Geth Engineer got. Sure I can still slam dunk and solo on Silver, but on Gold, GE felt gimped. This was my first fav and most used class.

[Jackums]

Really? I take a break from MP for two weeks and this?

Hunter Mode and now Tactical Cloak. Honestly the most disappointing changes made so far (assuming TC ends up getting the nerf). Jack is disappoint.

[Immortal Strife]

TC will not become broken by a slight nerf. The over reaction to the Bioware devs news is exactly that, an over reaction.

[tzu13]

Infiltrators are over-represented on Gold because the very nature of Gold makes Tactical Cloak more useful than any other class power. Need to capture the 4 objectives quickly while not drawing the aggro of every single mob? TC has your back. Need to revive someone in a tricky place without dying yourself? TC has your back. Need to take down one of the many bosses (that no longer take headshot damage) so that it doesn't corner and wipe your teammates? TC has your back. Also, since armored enemies, which there are quite a few of on Gold, have a flat rather than percentage-based damage reduction, high damage, single shot weapons (read: sniper rifles) are automatically the best weapons to bring as they are affected the least. And the best class to use sniper rifles on is - surprise - the Infiltrator.

Those are the reasons why it's rare to find a Gold group without at least one Infiltrator. It's certainly possible to complete Gold without an Infiltrator, but the difficulty level is seemingly tailor-made to be more manageable when there is one on the team. You want to change something, Bioware? Change Gold so that teams (especially PUGs) are not automatically gimped by not bringing an Infiltrator along.

Modifié par tzu13, 22 juin 2012 - 07:26 .

[IronRush]

Very good information regard tactical cloak on this topic, by Paladin.
http://social.biowar.../index/12690696

[TheloniusBear]

I concur with who ever mentioned that BioWare doesn't like seeing speed runs demolish the highest difficulty. Why should the hardest difficulty take the same amount of time as the lower difficulties to complete? Silver takes longer than bronze, and gold should take longer than silver. I like the fact that it takes longer. Better sense of accomplishment. Again, this is all personal perspective, so take it for what it is. Gold should take some effort. I don't think necessarily "nerfing" TC is the fix, but I wouldn't mind having it looked at. I ay infiltrators regularly with my valian 3 and I can only imagine how my team feels when I get a group of, for lack of a better word, subpar team mates. Not subpar in the sense that they are terrible players, but lets say more inexperienced. I demolish the enemy, and I'm sure they feel left out of the action, or at least a large portion of it. I am a huge fan of the engineer class so its not like the infiltrator is the only class to play as. Yes it does work well, but you can be effective with other classes as well. Play smart (somplething I don't always do), work as a team, and it'll work just fine. Changing Tac Cloak will NOT break the game for infiltrators.

[SkreeMalicious]

Heres how you solve the overuse of Infiltrators.

Boost enemy health in all modes by 40%
Boost damage output of all class defining abilities (except infiltrators) by 40%
(for example...)

Adrenaline Rush - Damage bonus increased by 40%
Biotic Charge - Damage increased by 40%
Tech Armor - Damage Bonus increased by 40%

Leave TC as is

Huzzah instant balance

Modifié par SkreeMalicious, 22 juin 2012 - 09:16 .

[InfamousResult]

SkreeMalicious wrote...

Heres how you solve the overuse of Infiltrators.

Boost enemy health in all modes by 40%
Boost damage output of all class defining abilities (except infiltrators) by 40%
(for example...)

Adrenaline Rush - Damage bonus increased by 40%
Biotic Charge - Damage increased by 40%
Tech Armor - Damage Bonus increased by 40%

Leave TC as is

Huzzah instant balance

Or just rebalance TC.

Huzzah much more instant balance.

[Jebel Krong]

Infiltrator only began to be perceived as OP after the krysae was introduced. Get rid of that and leave the classes alone for a bit. Let the game settle rather than change it so often nobody really knows that to expect or what to blame when everything seems different: connection? Tweaks? I never even got to experience the javelin before it got nerfed, for example.

How about a new enemy type instead? Give people something fresh to concentrate on learning for 5 minutes and ****ing about forever after.