696 réponses à ce sujet

[Mont0r]

I'ld be curious as to how much of that 33% only play on FBW against geth....

[MstrJedi Kyle]

Devilry wrote...

About changing the stats for the Infiltrator because so many use it – please don't. Here's why: The class is fun to play with. 

The reason a third of all players use Infiltrators is not because the class is overpowered, it's because it has an interesting and fun gameplay mechanic. Have you considered that it is used a lot simply because Bioware succeeded well in making it a lot of fun to use? I don't know the rest of the statistics over who uses what, but just as an example, I don't find the Soldier as much fun to play with in the multiplayer. I'm not saying it's underpowered, just a little boring in my opinion. There's nothing wrong with it, and I'm sure others love it and find it perfect for them.

The point is, making it so the classes are used equally doesn't mean maximizing the fun for everyone, and it doesn't mean balancing their usefulness either. People don't only choose class based on how many points they will get with it, but also for how much fun they have with it. Consider that. The result of this is that if you balance the classes so that they are used equally often, it will have to be done by underpowering the classes that the majority thinks is fun so that their lack of usefulness cancels out the fun that is built into the tactics of the class. Because in the total group of Mass Effect 3 players, the classes simply don't appeal to equally large parts of the players.

I'm all for making the classes balanced in effectiveness, but please, Bioware, don't mistake a class being popular for it being overpowered.

I agree with this. I don't play an Infil because I need to kill all the things as fast as humanly (or Quarianly in my case) possible. I play it because it is a fun class to play. Do I use TC to shoot things in the face? Yes I do, but I also use it to dump aggro while I'm running through fields of enemies to revive fallen team members or cap objectives. Doing those things would sometimes be impossible without TC. I've tried running across a map to revive fallen team members as other classes and guess what? It doesn't work out to well.

Mont0r wrote...

I'ld be curious as to how much of that 33% only play on FBW against geth....

I'd also be interested to see this. First the farmers make the geth almost impossible and now they are messing with our infils.

Modifié par DarthKilby, 25 juin 2012 - 11:49 .

[nicethugbert]

What bothers me the most about infiltrators is tactical cloak and what bothers me the most about tactical cloak is aggro dumping, I think Tactical cloak should be less effective in all it's functions, especially aggro dumping, the more infiltrators there are in the match such that it is 1/n effective with n infiltrators present in a match.

[Pr0d1gy316]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Razerath wrote...

saxybeast418 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

This is very interesting. If tactical cloak was really the source of the problem, wouldn't the overuse of infiltrators be across all difficulties instead primarily Gold (and to a lesser extent Silver)?

Perhaps I'm misreading the data, but this seems to indicate not that Infiltrators are overperforming, but that the other classes are underperforming.

+1 Eric please reply to this! I'd like to know your opinion on why Infiltrators shine on Gold.

Is it because TCloak can provide ( combined with the right weapons ) the best way to beat Gold and farm some credits?

Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

This makes it sound like instead of fixing the underpowered and broken aspects of the game you are going to take the one thing that is actually good and break it on purpose. I feel like the vanguards are crying grabbed my toy and said since mine is broken so is yours.

[upinya slayin]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

arc pistol still sucks. I like the viper now though. its a nice light sniper rifle

[XxKradosxX]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

Isn't that the point of infiltrators and the tactical cloak power? Sniper classes are there for the support and power, and tactical cloak is the one thing that keeps them in the running for one of the best and most useful classes. If you nerf tactical cloak i garauntee your going to over nerf the **** out of it and make the infiltrator class completely useless, every class can be just as powerful as another you just have to build and spec it the right way. Your basing the fact that your going to nerf the class on how popular it is and how often its used in gold. Thats just idoitic, yes it is sorta over-powered but that's the whole point of a sniper class, you pick it to sit back and give your team support, and yes with the right equipment and mods on the right weapon you can drop an atlas, banshee, or prime in four shots, nobody want's to pour countless clips into enemies in gold that's why the sniper class is picked, and thats the beauty of a sniper with a good tactical cloak build. Your going to ruin what is probably the best class and probably the last little bit of fun left in your game. Even if you alter it the tiniest bit your still going to aggravate a lot of people who use it.

[nicethugbert]

XxKradosxX wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

Isn't that the point of infiltrators and the tactical cloak power? Sniper classes are there for the support and power, and tactical cloak is the one thing that keeps them in the running for one of the best and most useful classes. If you nerf tactical cloak i garauntee your going to over nerf the **** out of it and make the infiltrator class completely useless, every class can be just as powerful as another you just have to build and spec it the right way. Your basing the fact that your going to nerf the class on how popular it is and how often its used in gold. Thats just idoitic, yes it is sorta over-powered but that's the whole point of a sniper class, you pick it to sit back and give your team support, and yes with the right equipment and mods on the right weapon you can drop an atlas, banshee, or prime in four shots, nobody want's to pour countless clips into enemies in gold that's why the sniper class is picked, and thats the beauty of a sniper with a good tactical cloak build. Your going to ruin what is probably the best class and probably the last little bit of fun left in your game. Even if you alter it the tiniest bit your still going to aggravate a lot of people who use it.

If the point of Infiltrators is to have the most powerful power in the game then the point of infiltrator is to be the EZMode class or I Win button.

If Tactical Cloak gets nerfed it'll bring Infiltrators down towards the rest of the classes.  So saying that nerfing tactical cloak will make infiltrators useless implies that the other classes are useless.

[Hypertion]

lol this topic has trolled me.

saw the balance changes and though "already?!"

i never was good with dates.

[G. P. Burdell]

With all this discussion about infiltrators I can't help but wonder if people have realized how awesome combat drone is now. If you go all damage and rockets that thing will fire off a rocket that does 765 damage across a 2.5m radius every 3 seconds... that's like having another engineer spamming a heavily beefed up incinerate on cooldown. Very nice, although I'm still thinking that 660 damage explosion with chain shock might be the better bet, I miss my drone staggers

[SabreWulfxX]

Seriously, can you guys stop tweaking and ruining this game? First you made sniper rifles almost completely useless (Unless you're a Krysae user). My widow does 5 bars of damage to infantry, then 3 bars to uber armored enemies; it used to drop infantry in one shot if it was a head shot and take ubers down to half health. My Valiant would do 4 bars of shield damage per shot to infrantry and 3 bars to ubers, now it does 3 bars to infantry and one bar to ubers. Why are snipers weaker than Claymores now?

Now you're looking into nerfing the Tac Cloak? Have you ever thought that 33 percent of the people that use Infiltrators might actually enjoy using them? Now you're going to remove the reason for a lot of us enjoying them.

Find a balance for classes and leave them in a more than useless state, I'm tired of logging on and playing and finding a weapon or class I've used for months completely different; you're ruining gameplay for a lot of people with these constant changes.

Modifié par SabreWulfxX, 25 juin 2012 - 08:27 .

[Seerezaro]

My personal opinion is that theres nothing wrong with tactical cloak, only the people using it. Sorry if this has been said but too many pages to go through them all.

Most pre-made groups will run with an infiltrator because it makes certain things easier like capturing objectives and picking people off the ground in a sticky situation.

However, some people just see infiltrators as either high damage hitters or they use TC to aggro dump things on their team so they can survive.

The latter can't be fixed without breaking a main function of TC, that is to let you get in and out without much trouble.

The formor can be balanced somewhat by simply making it so that TC always has its normal cooldown rather than its reduced early-break cooldown. Maybe lower its base to cooldown very slightly to compensate to allow for a slightly heavy weapon load. But no more -90 recharge speed 3 second cooldown cloaks.

[.458]

nicethugbert wrote...

What bothers me the most about infiltrators is tactical cloak and what bothers me the most about tactical cloak is aggro dumping, I think Tactical cloak should be less effective in all it's functions, especially aggro dumping, the more infiltrators there are in the match such that it is 1/n effective with n infiltrators present in a match.

Your ally bothers you...you don't like them having an ability...why? Do you actually believe cloak is effective on most things? It isn't. Husks, phantoms, nemesis, brute, banshee, pyros, hunters, rocket troopers, atlas...all appear to see through it. The things that can't see through it only seem to not see if you cloaked before they ever saw you.

If it is really too many of one class there, then the only way to be fair is to code the game to not allow more than one of ANY class in a game. Are you prepared to do the same as the other players who don't like more than 1 vanguard, more than 1 adept, so on? Or is it just prejudice against the class for reasons other than too many infiltrators? Let's go for it, let's see what happens when lobbies and in-game joins only allow 1 of each class.

[hijackerjack]

Hey guys, please don't trash me, but I'm really curious.

Over the past couple months, the complaints about Infiltrators was pretty much nothing and everyone was happy. What changed so much that caused everyone to get really mad? I just don't see what you guys are seeing when you complain that they are so OP. I can understand a gun, like the Krysae, but not why the class is OP.

Again. I just wanna know what changed. After Rebellion came out, this place went haywire and I'm slowly losing my desire to check the forums just because of the flood of threads on the same topic, though that has died down a little bit. Just trying to get on the same page here!

[.458]

One more thing...scores do not itemize. It is so VERY presumptuous to say this is all caused by too powerful of a weapon while cloaked. So...where did you get your statistics about actual kills? How do you know it is the weapon that is doing all this damage? And if it is the weapon, there has been considerable complaint against the krysae, and if not, how many are using an ultra rare? Should ultra rares be tamed?

[.458]

hijackerjack wrote...

Hey guys, please don't trash me, but I'm really curious.

Over the past couple months, the complaints about Infiltrators was pretty much nothing and everyone was happy. What changed so much that caused everyone to get really mad? I just don't see what you guys are seeing when you complain that they are so OP. I can understand a gun, like the Krysae, but not why the class is OP.

Again. I just wanna know what changed. After Rebellion came out, this place went haywire and I'm slowly losing my desire to check the forums just because of the flood of threads on the same topic, though that has died down a little bit. Just trying to get on the same page here!

I saw complaints about krysae and infiltrators go up together. I believe the average person who cares too much about everyone playing their way started feeling some injustice that it was not hard enough to be an infiltrator or to use a krysae, and worse, both together.

[Ogrinash]

Ahhhhh! Give me aggression dump, as it means more destruction I inflict!

[CYB3RFR34K]

please buff the M-8 Avenger fire power atleast 15%

[Fang92]

CYB3RFR34K wrote...

please buff the M-8 Avenger fire power atleast 15%

Make that 20% - 25% and we agree.

[XxKradosxX]

SabreWulfxX wrote...

Seriously, can you guys stop tweaking and ruining this game? First you made sniper rifles almost completely useless (Unless you're a Krysae user). My widow does 5 bars of damage to infantry, then 3 bars to uber armored enemies; it used to drop infantry in one shot if it was a head shot and take ubers down to half health. My Valiant would do 4 bars of shield damage per shot to infrantry and 3 bars to ubers, now it does 3 bars to infantry and one bar to ubers. Why are snipers weaker than Claymores now?

Now you're looking into nerfing the Tac Cloak? Have you ever thought that 33 percent of the people that use Infiltrators might actually enjoy using them? Now you're going to remove the reason for a lot of us enjoying them.

Find a balance for classes and leave them in a more than useless state, I'm tired of logging on and playing and finding a weapon or class I've used for months completely different; you're ruining gameplay for a lot of people with these constant changes.

this x 1million

[XxKradosxX]

they have ruined their game with all these constant changes every week. If they change the infiltrator, tactical cloak their going to lose a lot more players then they all ready have, and i doubt that weekend challenge was completed cause that **** is ridiculous 7mill troopers.

[ShinTheZero]

I'm pretty sure, you won't do these changes anyway but well let's try it:

Tactical Cloak main issue is it's enormous damage with sniper rifles. Yes, compared to other classes it makes Infiltrator the best weapon based class in game. Changes should be made but not something needless like cutting the bonus by half. This would be just an act to follow the suggestions of people, whose jealousy let them talk before thinking about it.

So what could be possible done to make the Cloak more balanced? Well, my suggestion is:

- In Rank 4 of the TC Evolution it says 40% damage raise. Take 10% of it and slap it on the base damage bonus. With this, a Rank 1 Infiltrator would have 60% damage increase.
With the remaining 30% make this a headshot bonus. With this the issue with Krysae + Infiltrator is finished. The Krysae is unable to do headshot due to its mechanics nerfing the damage on it about 30%. Now people cannot come here and start whining about it, no? And "skilled" player are redeemed properly (it also makes the Infiltrator not beginner friendly).

- If you really want to change that Rank 6 Sniper Rifle damage, then decrease it about 10% but not more than that, otherwise the Infiltrator will die out soon.

Maybe you, members of BW, take some inspiration from it and input it into the new patch for the TC. Nerfing it would kill the amount of players in your servers drastically (33% of the game play Infiltrator) and changing is the solution for balancing, not massive nerfing or buffing.

[.458]

nicethugbert wrote...

XxKradosxX wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

Isn't that the point of infiltrators and the tactical cloak power? Sniper classes are there for the support and power, and tactical cloak is the one thing that keeps them in the running for one of the best and most useful classes. If you nerf tactical cloak i garauntee your going to over nerf the **** out of it and make the infiltrator class completely useless, every class can be just as powerful as another you just have to build and spec it the right way. Your basing the fact that your going to nerf the class on how popular it is and how often its used in gold. Thats just idoitic, yes it is sorta over-powered but that's the whole point of a sniper class, you pick it to sit back and give your team support, and yes with the right equipment and mods on the right weapon you can drop an atlas, banshee, or prime in four shots, nobody want's to pour countless clips into enemies in gold that's why the sniper class is picked, and thats the beauty of a sniper with a good tactical cloak build. Your going to ruin what is probably the best class and probably the last little bit of fun left in your game. Even if you alter it the tiniest bit your still going to aggravate a lot of people who use it.

If the point of Infiltrators is to have the most powerful power in the game then the point of infiltrator is to be the EZMode class or I Win button.

If Tactical Cloak gets nerfed it'll bring Infiltrators down towards the rest of the classes.  So saying that nerfing tactical cloak will make infiltrators useless implies that the other classes are useless.

No, it is not the EZMode. "We win" might work, but not "I Win". You're mistaking infiltrator for krysae.

You are very very very prejudiced to be saying that the weapon makes them the most powerful there is. What do you think happens to a soldier that passes real life sniper training? Does that make him the one with the "easy button"? It changes the way of thinking and the ability to watch and listen and learn...something you seem to not want to do, you are taking the easy route out and not training. I'd love to see what would happen to any class that hits with just about every bullet, and often head shots. Everyone gets head shot bonuses, not just infiltrator. They fire from under cover, which is another bonus...but guess what, you get the same bonus! Do you use it? How many people want to just flex muscle and go running into the middle of the scene without a thought? I tend to use a pistol a lot if not the sniper rifle, and I never use the krysae. You couldn't even come close to how good I've become with a pistol, you are using technical points as your crutch, and not learning to be good at what you do.

Funny thing, even when I play a character with a shotgun or assault rifle, I've learned to hit a lot more often than most people. Anyone who thinks because the sniper rifle hits harder that it is some magic bullet believes grimm's faery tales is another historical document. Yes it helps...but staying alive and constantly hitting with every bullet and thinking before acting is a far bigger part of it. Listening and waiting to know what is going on is a bigger part of it.

Just about every class out there has something the infiltrator does not. You failed to learn to use it. I guarantee I can use a soldier better than you, a sentinel, or an adept. Not so good with engineer. The thing is that I prefer the non-barbarian style. You need to listen and learn, you're not even a beginner if you blame it all on a sniper weapon hitting harder from an infiltrator. You probably don't even fire from cover or work on head shots.

Watching, listening, and learning are the start of the best team game you will ever get. I hope BW understands this.

Modifié par .458, 27 juin 2012 - 02:29 .