696 réponses à ce sujet

[CHAw]

JChaos wrote...

A little damage is an understatement. It needs some serious AoE, some decent damage, and some more intense effect to shielded/armored enemies to make it worthwhile. Otherwise, it's two or three seconds of doing no damage to one enemy that can better be spent either deploying a turret, or just focusing fire on that same enemy and killing them.

Enemies in this game don't survive long enough to have status effects play any part in the battle against them, other than the boss tier enemies. And cryo blast doesn't affect any of them at all. (I could be mistaken there, it's been a while since I've played my FQE, but I don't believe I'm wrong...)

Cryo Blast actually does affect armored enemies, by slowing their movement slightly and making them more vulnerable to damage.

But powers like Warp and Proximity Mine also increase their damage vulnerability, while doing other, more useful stuff at the same time.

[Falgo666]

Don't nerf tactical cloak! Infiltrator is a single class in the game which works as a simple point and shoot model. To be otherwise successful in Gold, you need to use some cheezy and cheap tactics or do FBWGG over and over until you get some super mega weapons you can faceroll the game with. I use salarian with Valiant 1 and I can be very efficient in every Gold match. Not everyone has all the possibilities of having BW 10. People complaining are mostly people with crazy powerful weapons who spend money or huge amount of time playing. Infiltrator is probably the only class you can play well with not the best equipment and reasonable amount of accuracy.

[PossibleCabbage]

MajesticKill wrote...

hooray! Bioware listens to like 50 people who have voiced a negative opinion about tactical cloak. Must be the majority.

I think, honestly the fact that >1/3 of characters in gold matches are infiltrators does give Bioware a legitimate reason to look closely at the class.  Ideally you'd want 1/6 of the players in Gold to be infiltrators (and 1/6 to be each of the other 5 classes) so to correct this, you need a combination of buffs to the underrepresented classes and nerfs to the overrepresented classes.

Tactical cloak is just the obvious thing to look at when it comes to "how do we encourage enough people to stop playing infiltrators and start playing other classes" since it's really the only thing that infiltrators have all to themselves (similar to how I suspect the across-the-board turret/drone buffs were due to underrepresentation of engineers in general and HEs and FQEs in particular.)

I mean, if you're looking to figure out what's too good/not good enough, look at what the community uses/avoids disproportionately.  Based on the assumption that the community as a whole is reasonable at optimization, this will tell you where to look.

It's probable that we need some combinations of "infiltrator nerfs" and "everything-else buffs" and we should hope that Bioware errs towards the latter.

Modifié par PossibleCabbage, 21 juin 2012 - 10:56 .

[kyles3]

Bessy067 wrote...

Here's an idea: Don't nerf tac cloak, just buff other things to make other classes more viable...

Like making Krogan and Batarians resistant to stunlock and giving Turians the Marauder roll? 

[Adhok42]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

At least a damage nerf isn't being considered outright. I thank you for that. If you do touch the damage then all I ask for are boosts for weapons across the board. Tweaks to utility wouldn't be minded and may actually be welcomed. I don't want to have to rely on consumables to keep the potency of the Sniper build. As they stand now they tip the "Just barely on the edge" without to "confident yes" when included.

[Killahead]

Trakarg wrote...

Killahead wrote...

Trakarg wrote...

Viper is still weaker than the carnifex, but it weighs more and has an unscoped penalty.

if you're going to bother buffing stuff, buff it properly so you DON'T have to do it more than once.

A level X Viper now does more damage than low level Valiants, and it weighs less and holds 6 shots. A bit more recoil than the Valiant, but easily manageable. I'd say this buff puts it in a very good place.

The valiant has a significantly faster rate of fire.

True. Maybe you won't be able to get cloak damage bonus from more than two shots using the Viper. Still, it weighs less, holds more shots and is an uncommon weapon, if you buy into the notion that N7 weapons should be better than those. By giving the Viper higher damage or fire rate the Valiant could be close to redundant, especially considering that few have it past level 2.

[Mal3fact0r]

Razerath wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

Mess with TCloak too much and you'll lose this player right here.

The reason people are still using the Infiltrator is obviously because of it's damage output. The problem is that it is already fairly balanced considering the health and shields Infiltrators get. But when you add something like the Krysae...

Just make sure that no matter what you do, only nerf rank 6 damage. Ok? It's the only trouble spot. Otherwise you're going to mess with perfectly decent builds like the GPS/Claymore/Saber/Melee.

Pretty much the same here, I'll wait and see what they do but if they make TC useless or underpowered I'm done with ME3. Only other class I care to use at times is Soldier,  I find Biotic using classes too easy and boring.

Besides, nerfing a class/power based on "too many people play them" is not the brightest move. Do your statistics show you why people play Inf a lot? Perhaps it's because that is their favored class? Stealth classes are always popular, it's hardly a surprise they are here too. Trying to force people to use other classes likely won't work, making them more appealing might though.

Was hoping BioWare wouldn't cave to forum whines. Now the nerf train is rolling, what's next I wonder?

[molecularman]

FINALLY!

Nice changes overall, I say. Viper is pretty much a better sniper than carnifex now and drones received some good-looking buffs (though I can't say if they still are worth it, needs testing)

Eric Fagnan wrote...
As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

I KNEW there was something horribly wrong there. The rest of the classes would have some 13% each assuming they were played equally.

Brace yourselves, balance-haters, winter is coming early this year

[megawug]

Tactical cloak + Krysae is insane right now. IMHO, Krysae needs to lose the sniper rifle bonus from tactical cloak, since it's an AoE weapon. But please don't make drastic changes to TC!

Now, time to try out the new and improved HE!

Modifié par megawug, 21 juin 2012 - 10:59 .

[element eater]

sigh was hoping for something more useful to the QE after it got mentioned in another thread

[Master Xanthan]

MajesticKill wrote...

hooray! Bioware listens to like 50 people who have voiced a negative opinion about tactical cloak. Must be the majority.

Probably not even 50. More like 10-30 people. 

[VRtheTrooper]

i don't support a nerf to infs, but i'm not one to complain. at the end of the day, buff/nerf doesn't really matter to me at all. i'll use what i like and what's effective.

[holdenagincourt]

xxnickx45xx wrote...

Dude don't mess with TC. The only reason people complain is because that's the only reason the infiltrator is good. Killing people. If your going to nerf TC nerf every other class.

I disagree with this. Infiltrators are good at many other things besides killing people. I think these things (objectives, revives, recon, repositioning) make them uniquely valuable team players, as long as the person playing it understands teamwork.

My hope is that the unique roles infiltrators can fill in teams are not truncated by a balance change to Tactical Cloak. E.g. if the enemy detection range for TC were increased while the damage bonuses were left unchanged, that would be regrettable and do little to discourage Rambo infiltrators.

[redneck nosferatu]

Leave Tactical Cloak alone!

33% of Gold players use Infiltrators because they are a solid, fun class to play and are invaluable at capping objectives, flanking waves, and thinning enemy ranks; not because TC is "overpowered". Don't listen to some vocal minority whining on the forums and ruin the class!

Modifié par redneck nosferatu, 21 juin 2012 - 10:59 .

[GaryMaple]

As long as the Geth Infiltrator/ Scorpion build I was just introduced to remains viable after the inevitable Infiltrator nerf, I really don't care what they do to the class or Tactical Cloak nerf wise.

Modifié par GaryMaple, 21 juin 2012 - 10:58 .

[COLZ7R]

What happens when all the extra people that use inf as a crutch move on to the next op class? All the auto aim biotic bombers get nerffed then? Screwing with peoples fav class is a sure fire way to lose players, not pandering to a tiny very vocal minority

[PossibleCabbage]

Mal3fact0r wrote...

Besides, nerfing a class/power based on "too many people play them" is not the brightest move. Do your statistics show you why people play Inf a lot? Perhaps it's because that is their favored class? Stealth classes are always popular, it's hardly a surprise they are here too. Trying to force people to use other classes likely won't work, making them more appealing might though.

Probably a reasonable estimate of "how many people are using infiltrators in MP because they like stealth" versus "how many people are playing infiltrators in MP because they're far and away the most powerful" can be arrived at by comparing percentage of multiplayer characters who are infiltrators to comparison of single player characters who are infiltrators.

If something like 1/6 of single player playthroughs are infiltrators, but 1/3 of MP characters are infiltrators, then people aren't just playing infiltrators in MP because they like stealth.

I mean, it's not like Bioware doesn't have these numbers.

[Siran]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

I don't think, that the use of the infiltrator class per se constitutes that it's over-powered. Many MP games have a role that is comparable to a medic or supporter. He is crucial to the survival of the squad. The Infiltrators fit in this role. Even more so with Gold: I feel it's almost a necessity to bring along an Infiltrator here, as he is the one who can safely deactivate objectives, get out of a hot-zone to fire a rocket and remove the pressure on his teammate and heal downed teammates in the middle of a fight without too much risk. This of course leads to an infiltrator being on of the most used classes on gold, where these traits are most needed. Without a major overhaul of the roles (introduce a medic, that can do all of this or some of it) I don't believe that infiltrators will seize to dominate gold matches. But I don't have a problem with that, it's the nature of games, that a role that helps the team in such a major way is more likely to be picked. Plus, it's a fun class and there are three other spots that can be filled with other classes.

The enemies have recently been buffed to detect TC far more often, which made it hard as it is to maintain this role. So I'd vote against a nerf to this specific function. The damage bonuses in total  imho might be considered too high of an additional boost. But I'm not sure how to deal with that. Maybe remove the bonus to powers and limit it to weapons? An infiltrator with his weapon alone is a considerable force, but the bonus especially to the grenades that can be piled up with the grenade gear (the QMI being a prime example) is a bit much on top imho.

Modifié par Siran, 21 juin 2012 - 11:13 .

[Killahead]

So many doomsayers. I'm sure whatever change Bioware decides to do to TC, it will be reasonable. Let's wait and see before crying.

[Sdrol117]

MajesticKill wrote...

hooray! Bioware listens to like 50 people who have voiced a negative opinion about tactical cloak. Must be the majority.

Anybody who doesnt complain are the ones enjoying the over powered class.

[JChaos]

CHAw wrote...

JChaos wrote...

A little damage is an understatement. It needs some serious AoE, some decent damage, and some more intense effect to shielded/armored enemies to make it worthwhile. Otherwise, it's two or three seconds of doing no damage to one enemy that can better be spent either deploying a turret, or just focusing fire on that same enemy and killing them.

Enemies in this game don't survive long enough to have status effects play any part in the battle against them, other than the boss tier enemies. And cryo blast doesn't affect any of them at all. (I could be mistaken there, it's been a while since I've played my FQE, but I don't believe I'm wrong...)

Cryo Blast actually does affect armored enemies, by slowing their movement slightly and making them more vulnerable to damage.

But powers like Warp and Proximity Mine also increase their damage vulnerability, while doing other, more useful stuff at the same time.

There was discussion a long time ago about Cryo Blast not actually causing armor debuff. It was all conjecture since I don't think anyone wanted to really spend the time data mining it.

If that's changed, or if I'm in error, I'll certainly take back my argument about not doing anything to armored enemies. That said, I don't believe it's actually working as intended.

And in addition, you're quite right that other powers add the same debuffs while also doing a heck of a lot more on top of that.

But yes... *deep breath* Looking forward to running tests on the cryo blast.

[superligerzero]

Does this also apply to geth turrets as well?

[MajorBlazkowicz]

MajesticKill wrote...

hooray! Bioware listens to like 50 people who have voiced a negative opinion about tactical cloak. Must be the majority.

They also track server stats, and game data, not just the angry people who shout.

Kuato Livezz wrote...

Not sure about the Viper upgrade. It can add some variety in bronze and silver matches, but I would struggle with it in Gold. Again, with upgrades, it may be ok, but I don't know if I would waste upgrades on it.

Must be a gun that very few players use.

This guns is barley used and it is non-existent from Gold matches.

[saxybeast418]

@Eric Fagnan:

Please keep in mind that the number of players playing as a given class isn't just a matter of something being over or under powered.

Some of it might be personal preferences and biases. After all, not all of the races are available for every class.

Another thing is that the ratio of players playing as other classes can be depressed rather than infiltrators just being inflated. Some of it might be that certain classes are underpowered and underwhelming. Some might be hampered by mobility and susceptibility to getting stun-locked on Gold, like Krogans, Turians, and Batarians.

And then there are the Vanguards. The Biotic Charge glitches have kept me from playing as the Vanguard so many times, especially on Gold.

Perhaps look at the other classes and their core skills before rebalancing tactical cloak. Even small changes to bonus damage and cooldown could make the power useless even for more team-centric roles.

[Zancloufer]

TBH the Arc Piston buff doesn't seem that big.

The Viper would (IMO) benefit more from a 2-3x RoF increase and maybe a bit more ammo. Buffing the damage a little and reducing it's weight doesn't solve it's awkward as heck RoF.

Also, 33% of players being an Infiltrator; That's about every lobby having one, and roughly 10% of lobbies having two (or less than 10% having more than two). It's such a versatile class that you want one of your team 95%+ of the time.

Also, IDK how tactical cloak is OP. Yes you can say a GI with a Krysee (sp.?) is OP, but what about the Human one? You know the character where arguably TC is their only useful skill. How OP are they really (Without that Rocket Launcher labeled as a Sniper Rifles FFS)?