696 réponses à ce sujet

[Jay Leon Hart]

MartialArtsSurfer wrote...

*snip*

other builds that allow you to run around or get close like shotgun builds/melee aren't viable on gold unless you have cloak

You're doing it wrong - see Batarian Soldier for a prime example, Krogan Vanguard for another (although I'm terribad at this one) and well-built Vorcha.

[CmdrPwn]

Master Xanthan wrote...

MajesticKill wrote...

hooray! Bioware listens to like 50 people who have voiced a negative opinion about tactical cloak. Must be the majority.

Probably not even 50. More like 10-30 people. 

Yeah and half of them are probably trolls just trying to make everyone mad.

[DJepic112]

You seriously going to nerf infiltrators? People use it because all the other classes are under-powered. Man, I'm getting so sick of these nerfs.

[TenmaTaro]

Anyone try out the Arc Pistol after these changes? Worth using?

[rymajn3]

Yeah great idea. Nerf something because a lot of people find enjoyment out of using it.

[saxybeast418]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

This is very interesting. If tactical cloak was really the source of the problem, wouldn't the overuse of infiltrators be across all difficulties instead primarily Gold (and to a lesser extent Silver)?

Perhaps I'm misreading the data, but this seems to indicate not that Infiltrators are overperforming, but that the other classes are underperforming.

[Kenadian]

You're going to nerf TC because too many people play them on Gold? I'm sorry, even if you want to promote the use of other classes, that's not the way to go about it. Nerfing the class that so many people enjoy (notice not even a majority) is, frankly, misguided. It could use tweaking, such as not being able to get off a power AND weapon shots before the cloak disengages (which renders that final evolution kind of pointless to choose). Hitting it with the nerfbat would be, the worst way to go about this. It would probably be the worst nerf since the Falcon.

In other words, HANDS OFF MA QUARIAN MALE INFILTRATOR.

Modifié par Kenadian, 21 juin 2012 - 11:45 .

[Cayse]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

These were the numbers I wanted to see. If it's only on Bronze that classes actually have close to 1/6th representation it's a pretty obvious indicator that something is wrong.

And you can't reasonably say that it's not the underrepresented classes that are the problem. Trying to say five classes are "underpowered" and one class isn't... I don't know how someone could say that with a straight face.

Kenadian wrote...

It could use tweaking, such as not being able to get
off a power AND weapon shots before the cloak disengages

That would be a nerf. It's neat how many people think "nerf" means "completely destroy."

Modifié par Cayse, 21 juin 2012 - 11:46 .

[Variasaber]

saxybeast418 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

This is very interesting. If tactical cloak was really the source of the problem, wouldn't the overuse of infiltrators be across all difficulties instead primarily Gold (and to a lesser extent Silver)?

Perhaps I'm misreading the data, but this seems to indicate not that Infiltrators are overperforming, but that the other classes are underperforming.

You hit the nail on the head; bravo.
Infiltrators are used far more on Gold because of the huge damage bonus they get from Tac Cloak. That bonus helps a lot on Gold where enemies soak up ridiculous amounts of damage without even flinching, but it's unnecessary on Silver and laughable on Bronze, because you can do adequate damage without the bonus.

[-Sxx-]

Eric Fagnan wrote...
, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

Big deal?

You're going to nerf everything to hell, seriously. People like using TC, so what? They're 'assassins', so what? It's an essential/key and unique ability of an infiltrator, of the class. Why on EARTH do you seem to be expecting anything else for crying out loud?

Jesus. I wonder whether your data shows that not many people use that many assault rifles, if so, why hasn't anything sigificant been altered in that department yet? Try playing the game some more instead of just judging by data.

Modifié par Dest1ny, 21 juin 2012 - 11:46 .

[MartialArtsSurfer]

[quote]Eric Fagnan wrote...
[quote]T1l wrote...
[quote]Barneyk wrote...
Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?
[/quote]
Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.
[/quote]
It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.
[/quote]
it's logical to conclude that TC's increasing usage at higher levels is because the higher levels have mobs that do far more damage, making TC usage a necessity to play builds that allow run & gunning or close-range weapons/melee or surviving the activate/deactivate objectives (other classes get killed before completing them unless team mates distract the mobs) ..

also TC doubles as a making short-range weapons/melee more viable... like a 'tank'

other builds that allow you to run around or get close like shot-gun builds/melee aren't as viable on Gold unless you have cloak or ultra high regen/shields like a maxed regen Vorcha

What makes cloak so useful is that on Gold, a few hits kill you instantly just running to
the next piece of cover or reduce your health to a sliver...

just reduce the damage that mobs do on Gold by 10%-15% or increase shield-gate so that you don't need cloak to survive running around because a burst from a Marauder or Cannibel can easily kill you thu shield-gate whle running between cover unless you have Cloak or Vorcha's regen or similar ability,
&
people do enjoy running around like CoD or Gears or Halo without getting killed

--those are the top 3 videogames by players... most people find it more fun to be mobile instead of just camping at 1 spot

Gold feels alot like Hardcore mode of those games where 1 to 3 shots kills you --and Hardcore mode is used by tiny percentage of players.

Gold too would be used by only a tiny percentage of players like Hardcore mode in other games but the need for credits to unlock weapons necessitates doing Gold or farming to unlock weapons as quickly as possible

There's a happy medium/compromise:
ie, RE:[/quote]
1) just make TC actually affected by weight, regardless of how long cloak is used

2& 4) make throwing grenades or any other power deactivate cloak
just like firing a shot does. This makes the 'bonus power' evolution at
tier 6 actually useful as it was meant to be

3) keep the tier 6 40% sniper bonus to encourage sniper usage & going deep in cloak,
the class signature power --other classes have 50%-100% additive damage bonuses on their tier 6 final evolution

Modifié par MartialArtsSurfer, 22 juin 2012 - 12:07 .

[Razerath]

saxybeast418 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

This is very interesting. If tactical cloak was really the source of the problem, wouldn't the overuse of infiltrators be across all difficulties instead primarily Gold (and to a lesser extent Silver)?

Perhaps I'm misreading the data, but this seems to indicate not that Infiltrators are overperforming, but that the other classes are underperforming.

+1 Eric please reply to this! I'd like to know your opinion on why Infiltrators shine on Gold.

Is it because TCloak can provide ( combined with the right weapons ) the best way to beat Gold and farm some credits?

[Danisthewalrus]

Maybe so many people use Infiltrator because that's how they enjoy playing the game? Don't be so idiotic Bioware, nerfing TC would lead to a big decrease in people playing your already shallow game. How about improving the other classes so they're just as much fun as Infiltrator and adding new modes? Even U/U/G is starting to get boring...

[Kuato Livezz]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

Out of curiosity, what are the full stats of class distribution across the game levels?

[CmdrPwn]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

Because any class is good on silver or bronze and we don't really need cloak for the extra damage, survivability, or to revive teammates like we do on gold.

[Kenadian]

Cayse wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

These were the numbers I wanted to see. If it's only on Bronze that classes actually have close to 1/6th representation it's a pretty obvious indicator that something is wrong.

And you can't reasonably say that it's not the underrepresented classes that are the problem. Trying to say five classes are "underpowered" and one class isn't... I don't know how someone could say that with a straight face.

Kenadian wrote...

It could use tweaking, such as not being able to get
off a power AND weapon shots before the cloak disengages

That would be a nerf. It's neat how many people think "nerf" means "completely destroy."

To me a nerf is a reduction in what it is supposed to be able to do. Being able to use Energy Drain AND shoot your Valiant two or three times before the cloak goes is not working as designed. Working as designed would be if you did that with the rank 6 evolution that is supposed to allow that. That's an exploit.

[richcz3]

To all the Infiltrator class players that used TC to Benchmark how OP new weapons were. This is what happens.
Be sure Bioware would have never opted to Nerf TC if Infiltrator players didn't make a stink upon every new weapon released. Reap what you Sow, there isn't a more clear example of it.

[Kuato Livezz]

Kenadian wrote...

Cayse wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

These were the numbers I wanted to see. If it's only on Bronze that classes actually have close to 1/6th representation it's a pretty obvious indicator that something is wrong.

And you can't reasonably say that it's not the underrepresented classes that are the problem. Trying to say five classes are "underpowered" and one class isn't... I don't know how someone could say that with a straight face.

Kenadian wrote...

It could use tweaking, such as not being able to get
off a power AND weapon shots before the cloak disengages

That would be a nerf. It's neat how many people think "nerf" means "completely destroy."

To me a nerf is a reduction in what it is supposed to be able to do. Being able to use Energy Drain AND shoot your Valiant two or three times before the cloak goes is not working as designed. Working as designed would be if you did that with the rank 6 evolution that is supposed to allow that. That's an exploit.

Yes.  I think this would be a proper fix.  You cloak and your single shot or single power gets the benefit of TC.  Not, Prox mine, then 2-3 shots from Valiant/BW.

[element eater]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

yes because too many other weapons and classes are so weak by comparison if you nerf the infiiltrators people arent going to just start playing QEs, BS, drellguard, ks etc they are still going too be weak for the average player to make viable just means that one of the few alround useful characters will be worse

[MinatheBrat]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

Alot of people like to have an Infiltrator on the team, because they're good for running for objectives. So that would account for much of the 25%.

My oppinion on that is that when someone is getting their feet wet in gold, Infiltrator is the class they pick because they feel that the TC is a "safety net". It's a good strategy for people weaning away from Gold farming, or trying Gold out for the first time. This can account for the other 8.6%.

I don't think it's a big issue, because as people get better in gold, they naturally gravitate away from the Infiltrator...and this also includes "needing" one for the team. They want to play other classes, and they've learned enough and gained enough confidence from playing an Infiltrator that they can.

This is a relatively new game. People are still learning to play Gold. I think the situation will resolve itself naturally.

[Cayse]

Kenadian wrote...

To me a nerf is a reduction in what it is supposed to be able to do. Being able to use Energy Drain AND shoot
your Valiant two or three times before the cloak goes is not working as designed. Working as designed would be if you did that with the rank 6 evolution that is supposed to allow that. That's an exploit.

And fixing it would be a nerf.

People are already lining up to abandon the class because they think absolutely any change is going to gut the class.

Fixing the way the cooldown interacts with weight would make it function like any other power, and wouldn't have a noticeable effect on most infiltrators, but it would be a nerf.

Lowering the damage bonus from 90% to 85% would be a nerf.

It's like the word itself causes people to freak out.

Nerf!

Modifié par Cayse, 21 juin 2012 - 11:54 .

[nicethugbert]

NEAT!  Buffs!

Finally, maybe some aggro dump relief.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 21 juin 2012 - 11:54 .

[Feneckus]

saxybeast418 wrote...


This is very interesting. If tactical cloak was really the source of the problem, wouldn't the overuse of infiltrators be across all difficulties instead primarily Gold (and to a lesser extent Silver)?

No.

The tougher the games are, the more infiltrators you will see. That proves something.

If there was a platinum difficulty, you'd probably see 50% infiltrators.

[Eric Fagnan]

Razerath wrote...

saxybeast418 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

This is very interesting. If tactical cloak was really the source of the problem, wouldn't the overuse of infiltrators be across all difficulties instead primarily Gold (and to a lesser extent Silver)?

Perhaps I'm misreading the data, but this seems to indicate not that Infiltrators are overperforming, but that the other classes are underperforming.

+1 Eric please reply to this! I'd like to know your opinion on why Infiltrators shine on Gold.

Is it because TCloak can provide ( combined with the right weapons ) the best way to beat Gold and farm some credits?

Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.