696 réponses à ce sujet

[Kenadian]

Cayse wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

To me a nerf is a reduction in what it
is supposed to be able to do. Being able to use Energy Drain AND shoot
your Valiant two or three times before the cloak goes is not working as
designed. Working as designed would be if you did that with the rank 6
evolution that is supposed to allow that. That's an exploit.

And fixing it would be a nerf.

People are already lining up to abandon the class because they think absolutely any change is going to gut the class.

Fixing
the way the cooldown interacts with weight would make it function like
any other power, and wouldn't have a noticeable effect on most
infiltrators, but it would be a nerf.

Lowering the damage bonus from 90% to 85% would be a nerf.

It's like the word itself causes people to freak out.

Nerf!

Then it's a personal distinction I guess. While you're right, I still view a nerf as making a gun/power as worthwhile as using a Nerf gun. TC going from 90 to 80% damage wouldn't bother me. Fixing the exploit with the powers and such wouldn't bug me. Increasing cooldown to match weight or lowering base duration wouldn't bother me. I just don't want it to have unwarranted afects like the HM nerf did. Necessary for the GI, not the GE.

[Jay Leon Hart]

JLoco11 wrote...
Why would I use a Turian Sentinel meatshield, who can't detonate a biotic, avoid a fireball or do an upload without getting picked up, when I get take an invisible Geth and see enemies across the map.  Fact is tactical cloak isn't overpowered, it's that other classes are at a disadvantage.

Why would you use one of the most versatile classes in the game on the hardest setting? Gee, I wonder why... oh, and he can detonate biotics, since Warp is both a biotic primer and detonator. If Cloak isn't overpowered, everything else is just at a disadvantage, then Claok must have an advantage, so it's more powerful than everything else... what?

[Morning Elf]

Cayse wrote...

It's like the word itself causes people to freak out.

Nerf!

The hilarious part is that Eric Fagnan didn't even use the word.

[Master Xanthan]

nicethugbert wrote...

NEAT!  Buffs!

Finally, maybe some aggro dump relief.

I don't see how a nerf is going to stop aggro dumps, tac cloak will still (hopefully) function the same. Honestly I never had a problem with the "aggro dump" when playing with people who use infiltrators.

[Kenadian]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Razerath wrote...

saxybeast418 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

This is very interesting. If tactical cloak was really the source of the problem, wouldn't the overuse of infiltrators be across all difficulties instead primarily Gold (and to a lesser extent Silver)?

Perhaps I'm misreading the data, but this seems to indicate not that Infiltrators are overperforming, but that the other classes are underperforming.

+1 Eric please reply to this! I'd like to know your opinion on why Infiltrators shine on Gold.

Is it because TCloak can provide ( combined with the right weapons ) the best way to beat Gold and farm some credits?

Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

As much of a problem as that is, that simply speaks to the strengths of the class. OP or not, if you take out what many people use as a strong tool for Gold (and for any potential Platinum mode in the future) but leave the other classes as they were before, that simply takes away from the enjoyment. You'll see a big drop in the success rate of PUG gold games.

[Blind2Society]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

You're seriously thinking about nerfing TC rather than buffing other classes?

The amount of facepalm required here simply does not exist.

Did you ever stop to think that a lot of people play infiltrators more because you did something right with them and did something wrong with the other classes? No, I guess that escaped your attention.

I play all the classes I like equally on gold and that includes my infiltrator. If you guys nerf TC and don't make headshots bypass shieldgate I may just have to kiss this game goodbye.

[DeathIsHere]

Jay Leon Hart wrote...

JLoco11 wrote...
Why would I use a Turian Sentinel meatshield, who can't detonate a biotic, avoid a fireball or do an upload without getting picked up, when I get take an invisible Geth and see enemies across the map.  Fact is tactical cloak isn't overpowered, it's that other classes are at a disadvantage.

Why would you use one of the most versatile classes in the game on the hardest setting? Gee, I wonder why... oh, and he can detonate biotics, since Warp is both a biotic primer and detonator. If Cloak isn't overpowered, everything else is just at a disadvantage, then Claok must have an advantage, so it's more powerful than everything else... what?

Being more powerful =/= Overpowered. Don't know what gave you that assumption. Overpowered would mean it's so powerful it's unfair. TC does need a slight nerf, but I get the feeling this will be more than a slight nerf. They need to focus on bringing things UP to Gold level, rather than nerfing infiltrators out of Gold.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Heather Cline wrote...

What's wrong with using an Infiltrator on Gold? That sounds like you don't want people using the class at all on Gold. Seriously Infiltrators provide much needed support with sniping and reviving on Gold as well as completing objectives that require sitting in one place for a certain amount of time.

The tactical cloak is really a necessity on Gold especially during the objectives cause it's hard enough getting through it even with a crack team.

You need to play with some better people - Cloak is not a necessity on Gold. At all.

[saxybeast418]

Cayse wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

These were the numbers I wanted to see. If it's only on Bronze that classes actually have close to 1/6th representation it's a pretty obvious indicator that something is wrong.

And you can't reasonably say that it's not the underrepresented classes that are the problem. Trying to say five classes are "underpowered" and one class isn't... I don't know how someone could say that with a straight face.

Quite easily, actually.

I agree, if its on Bronze that all classes have the expected 1/6th representation, something is wrong.

But what?

My theory is that Gold really isn't fair. The classes meant to be sturdier and "tankier" just end up easily mobbed and stunlocked. Squishy classes die very quickly, and there's only so much dodging can do. The enemy's damage resistance is through the rough, and their attacks become virtually uninterruptable.

Close range? Risk getting instakilled or stunlocked. Mid range? Easily flanked.

Perhaps tactical cloak isn't the most overpowered thing in the world. Perhaps it's a matter of:

1) Being able to boost weapon and power damage so you don't need to burn mods just to scratch the enemies.
2) Being able to maneuver and leave cover and not enter a world of pain 90% of the time (oh, you'll still die a lot; it's just far less suicidal for infiltrators than for others).

Look, I do fine on Gold. I'll happily play infiltrator, but I am also comfortable playing other classes as well and have been quite successful. But Gold can be an absolute slog, and sometimes it feels less challenging than it does cheap.

I know, I'm biased: I dislike nerfs and greatly like buffs. If you have a good alternative explanation for these numbers, I'd love to hear it!

[holdenagincourt]

AeonFrog wrote...

Anyone try out the Arc Pistol after these changes? Worth using?

I tried to...but my modem crapped out. 

[Kristen Schanche]

There was discussion a long time ago about Cryo Blast not actually causing armor debuff. It was all conjecture since I don't think anyone wanted to really spend the time data mining it.

If that's changed, or if I'm in error, I'll certainly take back my argument about not doing anything to armored enemies. That said, I don't believe it's actually working as intended.

And in addition, you're quite right that other powers add the same debuffs while also doing a heck of a lot more on top of that.

But yes... *deep breath* Looking forward to running tests on the cryo blast.

I ran a few checks to confirm things for you folks.  Cryo Blast is correctly applying both its damage bonuses, as well as its armor reduction bonuses.  Giving it some level of damage bonus against normal enemies, and a more substantial one in most cases against armored targets.  I confirmed for you folks that its providing its damage bonus evolutions against unarmored targets as well as armored targets.

I compared with other powers as well, Cryo Blast can provide you a 25% damage bonus, before adding in armor weakness.  Warp provides a 15% damage bonus, before adding in armor weakness.  Cryo Blast may not be a point maker, but it certainly provides some strong utility to your team.

Happy hunting!

[Cundu_Ertur]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

This week's balance changes are now live and can be found here.

As a heads up to the community, we are reviewing Tactical Cloak for next week's balance changes. Our data shows that an overly large percentage of players are still using Infiltrators on Gold (33.6%). As always, we appreciate constructive feedback on this topic.

Make the cloak recharge depend on weight, like every other class's recharge times depend on weight. That's the single biggest unbalancing aspect for the class as a whole. Right now I can carry a BW and a Claymore and cast sabotage, or ED, or snowballs every three seconds. No other class can do that. The class doesn't need to make the hard compromise that every other class does between having a hard-hitting heavy weapon or putting up with a light weapon that does less damage in order to use powers more often. This would actually be a very substantial nerf, but not a class-destroying one. People would have to make a choice though, and it would affect their gameplay.

The GI shouldn't have gotten a double-boost to damage (huntermode + cloakmode), it makes them the most unbalanced kit. You can probably see what the exact percentage in gold is, but I'd bet it is something like just about half are GI, a third or so SI, then QFI, QMI, and human taking up the rest in about that order. Without doubt the most common infiltrator is the geth, though. Nerfing all infiltrators' damage because the GI gets two boosts to weapon damage isn't right. It's probably too late to revisit the power assignment, though. If the tac cloak recharge was tied to weight, though, wouldn't huntermode slow down the recharge speed? Maybe it should.

Of course just going by what people do on gold would probably lead someone to believe that nearly every single match has a salarian engineer in it. At firebase white. Against geth.

[OrphanMakrBebop]

Just a thought, maybe instead of nerfing the powers critical to a support role, you could just take away the ability to revive other players. Also, make the disable/deactivate procedure twice as long if the player is cloaked.
Everyone wins, because you didn't have to nerf any particular power, but you've also maybe an entire class completely useless on Gold missions. You're welcome.

[Kenadian]

Chris Schanche wrote...

There was discussion a long time ago about Cryo Blast not actually causing armor debuff. It was all conjecture since I don't think anyone wanted to really spend the time data mining it.

If that's changed, or if I'm in error, I'll certainly take back my argument about not doing anything to armored enemies. That said, I don't believe it's actually working as intended.

And in addition, you're quite right that other powers add the same debuffs while also doing a heck of a lot more on top of that.

But yes... *deep breath* Looking forward to running tests on the cryo blast.

I ran a few checks to confirm things for you folks.  Cryo Blast is correctly applying both its damage bonuses, as well as its armor reduction bonuses.  Giving it some level of damage bonus against normal enemies, and a more substantial one in most cases against armored targets.  I confirmed for you folks that its providing its damage bonus evolutions against unarmored targets as well as armored targets.

I compared with other powers as well, Cryo Blast can provide you a 25% damage bonus, before adding in armor weakness.  Warp provides a 15% damage bonus, before adding in armor weakness.  Cryo Blast may not be a point maker, but it certainly provides some strong utility to your team.

Happy hunting!

Thanks for that.

[codename2o2]

Y'know, it'd me AMAZINGLY funny if they decided:
Tactical cloak power
-base damage bonus increased from 50% to 60%
-evolution 4 damage bonus increased from 40% to 50%
-evolution 6 sniper damage bonus increased from 40% to 60%

Oh it'd be glorious...

But seriously, if they decide to do even half the idiocy produced from this horrible community, I'm trading in my copy of me3. Multi is the only thing keeping me from trading in this headache in a box since sp is ruined for me because of the ending. If they slash my favorite class to oblivion, bioware will have no more of my money, Extended cut bs or not.

Oh, and thanks for buffing the OFE. Maybe I can play her now that I won't be kicked from every match for using her.

Modifié par codename2o2, 22 juin 2012 - 12:05 .

[Jaze55]

Here is my opinion on cloak.

33.3% is high.

However in my opinion this is why.

In private matches with friends I know if I am on another class we will all works together to get objectives done. I know that if I am the only one alive and 5 Phantoms are running around someone will tell me over mic that it's close leaving me with ample time to get away or counter. I know that if we get into trouble we will all work together to get out of it. I don't feel the need to have that added security cloak has.

When I do public matches I probably play an Infil in silver and above 90% of the time because in my experience most people do not use mics in pubs. I know if I am the only one alive and there are 5 Phantoms and it slices me once, I can dodge and cloak to get away on my inf. Other classes I have a lot less chance to get away because I won't have that warning and ample time to run or counter. I know that during obj rounds I can complete them myself on my inf. but if I have to do it alone on my squishy Asari getting shot up out in the open I'm dead. 

I believe this is why you see so many. Not because it's face roll easy but because of the security it represents. I feel I am a very good infiltrator. I am far from the best, but I feel comfortable in my ability. I die on it. It doesn't make me invincible. All it does is give me that sense of security when I am play with randoms that I can survive alone to get my team to the next wave. 

Bioware, can you check data on that 33% and see if they are in private or public matches? If you can I think that might shed a new light on why you see such a high number. Again, 75%ish of time I do randoms I am on my infiltrator. Private matches you usually see me on an adept or eng. I do not believe the reasons I stated above solely apply to me.

I would be very curious to see the results if you can parse that data to see the split between public/private matches.
 

Modifié par MassEffected555, 22 juin 2012 - 12:06 .

[JamesDobry]

Oh dude... please don't touch the Tac Cloak. It's good as is.

[landylan]

eric, i sent you pm. you no reply. why you no love me? do you think you are above this mortal man?

im also very curious to see what they do to tac cloak:devil:....maybe they could buff the krysae again???

Modifié par landylan, 22 juin 2012 - 12:06 .

[Jay Leon Hart]

Kenadian wrote..
To me a nerf is a reduction in what it is supposed to be able to do. Being able to use Energy Drain AND shoot your Valiant two or three times before the cloak goes is not working as designed. Working as designed would be if you did that with the rank 6 evolution that is supposed to allow that. That's an exploit.

This is a smiliar line of reasoning to my own, along with weapon weight actually having an impact on power cooldowns *unless* you take that rank 6 power evolution.

[Cyberfrog81]

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

I think people feel they need that Infiltrator-firepower on Gold. Since most other classes feel so... inadequate by comparison, maybe you've buffed enemies too much - particularly geth...

[Megachaz]

Kenadian wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

Razerath wrote...

saxybeast418 wrote...

Eric Fagnan wrote...

T1l wrote...

Barneyk wrote...

Isn't sniper overpowered in most games?

Depends on which game and your definition of 'overpowered'. I'm just curious why Eric mentioned stats on Gold specifically as if it were something out of the norm. I honestly don't think the representation of snipers is out of line with what should be expected of any online shooter.

It's clear that there is more going on than player preference for sniper classes, since Infiltrators are being used 20.43% of the time on Silver, and 15.18% of the time on Bronze.

This is very interesting. If tactical cloak was really the source of the problem, wouldn't the overuse of infiltrators be across all difficulties instead primarily Gold (and to a lesser extent Silver)?

Perhaps I'm misreading the data, but this seems to indicate not that Infiltrators are overperforming, but that the other classes are underperforming.

+1 Eric please reply to this! I'd like to know your opinion on why Infiltrators shine on Gold.

Is it because TCloak can provide ( combined with the right weapons ) the best way to beat Gold and farm some credits?

Well in my opinion Tactical Cloak is hugely popular (especially on Gold) because it gives you massive damage bonuses AND great utility and survivability. We don't have any other power quite like that. It's a great power and we're glad people like it, but it is way more powerful than probably any other power in the game. We've generally tried to buff other classes and powers but it's clear that we would have to make signficant additional balance changes to huge numbers of abilities (and the enemies to compensate) in order to match Cloak's power, and that is something we just don't have the manpower for.

As much of a problem as that is, that simply speaks to the strengths of the class. OP or not, if you take out what many people use as a strong tool for Gold (and for any potential Platinum mode in the future) but leave the other classes as they were before, that simply takes away from the enjoyment. You'll see a big drop in the success rate of PUG gold games.

I'd rather be in fewer successful Gold PUGs than have the situation there is now.  It's not uncommon for there to be 3 Infis in a lobby, and then you're forced to change to Infi or take all aggro.

[Pugz82]

Well if TC gets a drastic nerf you can expect 33% less people at all likely...it seems like the only part of the community you listen to feedback from is all the kiddies crying about everything in a team game.

[CHAw]

Blind2Society wrote...

Did you ever stop to think that a lot of people play infiltrators more because you did something right with them and did something wrong with the other classes? No, I guess that escaped your attention.

You realize that you just told them they got 5 things wrong and only 1 thing right, yes? Way to deliver a backhanded compliment.

[Homey C-Dawg]

Nice of you to be giving us ideas of what your looking at for the next weeks changes Mr. Fagnan. It give us a week of talking about the right things and you guys a week to see threads about what your actually working on.

Now, off to try my quarian engineer. And thanks for the buffs.

[FirstBlood XL]

*sigh*

Tac Cloak NEEDS to be slightly "OP", especially in the GI class... as the friggin' GI has NO OTHER POWERS... save for the useless Prox Mines and HM that screws up your screen for the entire match.

The only reason I even got started using the Infiltrator class was because certain gold lobbies would not have one... and I knew TC would be valuable to cap objectives. The slightly OP nature of TC makes it bearable to play such a boring, no-power class, so you can save your team's asses in the other waves.

How about a buff to Hunter Mode so my screen isn't jacked up? I have a 73" 3D HDTV... I wasn't really looking for a 'power' that makes my tv look like a 1991 Sears model with a loose RF connector. But I guess congratulations are in order, since you found a way to nerf my actual TV. Bravo, BW... Bravo.