27 réponses à ce sujet

[swk3000]

I've got a very good idea of where I want to go with my Rogue, but I'm having trouble meshing the talents I need together. Here's what I would like:

1. Momentum. It's amazing. However, early on, it rather sucks. I want to get it probably around Level 10, when I've got a few items with Stamina Regen to support it, and have built up my Stamina pool.

2. Riposte. I have Dirty Fighting, but I would like to supplement it with Riposte. Having a couple of options to stun would be great.

3. I only want Dual Weapon Finesse (the second tier skill). Everything beyond that is worthless to me.

4. I would love to work Stealth in, but I'm having trouble doing so. If you can find a way to fit in all 4 levels, that would be amazing.

5. Lethality is a must.

6. Coup de Grace is very nice, but I can live without it if I must.

My current progression looks something like this:

Character Creation: Deft Hands, Dual Weapon Training
Level 2: Dual Weapon Finesse
Level 3: Dual Striking
Level 4: Improved Tools
Level 5: Combat Movement, Riposte
Level 6: Below the Belt
Level 7: Deadly Strike
Level 8: Lethality
Level 9: Coup de Grace
Level 10: Flurry
Level 11: Mark of Death
Level 12: Exploit Weakness
Level 13: Momentum

That's what I've got so far. I'd prefer to get Momentum earlier, but the other stuff seems Vital, and I can't work Stealth in there at all. The lack of Stealth is a minor annoyance, but I'd like the freedom to mess around with it eary on, instead of having to wait until later.

[Discobird]

You can substitute Haste for Momentum. Right now they're bugged and cancel each other out, so just pick one or the other.



I would try to get Combat Stealth ASAP. Cunning rogues are fragile and they build aggro fast. I'd delay DW Finesse, Improved Tools, and Coup de Grace to get Combat Stealth at level 9.



Also you left out DW Sweep?



Anyway you may want to consider buying a talent tome early on.

[swk3000]

Sounds like rather solid advice. All the chests I'm going to miss are going to be annoying, but I'll be better in combat, so I guess it can't be helped.



Also, I was hoping to avoid buying tomes, as the things are damn expensive. Still, I'll look into it. Especially to get the Improved Tools talent.



And yes, I did leave out Dual Weapon sweep. Not sure how that happened. Here's what things look like now:



Character Creation: Deft Hands, Dual Weapon Training

Level 2: Stealth

Level 3: Dual Striking

Level 4: Stealthy Item Use

Level 5: Combat Movement, Riposte

Level 6: Below the Belt

Level 7: Deadly Strike

Level 8: Lethality

Level 9: Combat Stealth

Level 10: Flurry

Level 11: Mark of Death

Level 12: Exploit Weakness

Level 13: Momentum

[Faerell Gustani]

I always get momentum ASAP. I've never run out of stamina before the fight ended as I have no reason to use any other stamina based talents once momentum is up.

Worst comes to worst, Wynne is packing mass rejuvenation.

[swk3000]

I understand the whole thing, but until I get some Stamina Regen items, I don't like Momentum. I won't pick up my first one until about Level 7, when I finally hit the Party Camp for the first time. I'd love to pick up Momentum at the same time, but there's too much I would like to do before then, so it gets shoved aside until later.

[Bullets McDeath]

You can just wait to activate momentum until all your other abilities have been used and your stam is too low to activate them anyway.

[kevinwastaken]

I think you should buy any tomes you see. Coin is easy to come by midway through the game and the books are actually quite a bargain in the long run.

[Sharog]

if u plan to use lethality means u gonna have high cunning, improved tools is not necessary, at lvl 14 ish u can already open pretty much every lock in the game with just deft hands.

Lethality isnt as important to get early either, since u most likely gonna have some STR to wear armors, the difference in ur cunning attribute compare to STR wont be large enough in the early lvls to justify the 3 talent point


coup de grace and ripposite is not as important in early game, once u hit combat stealth u can stab pretty much everything to death in 2 seconds. momentum and the stealth tree is definately the first choice.

Modifié par Sharog, 13 décembre 2009 - 11:54 .

[swk3000]

Sharog wrote...

if u plan to use lethality means u gonna have high cunning, improved tools is not necessary, at lvl 14 ish u can already open pretty much every lock in the game with just deft hands.

I'm erring on the side of caution with Improved Tools. I don't like the idea of coming across chests I can't open right away. Sure, I can come back for most of them, but I don't want to have to come back.

Lethality isnt as important to get early either, since u most likely gonna have some STR to wear armors, the difference in ur cunning attribute compare to STR wont be large enough in the early lvls to justify the 3 talent point

Au Contraire, mes ami.* If I unequip all my items, and turn off all sustained Talents and spells, then my character is going to have a grand total of 11 Strength. I can get items to boost me up far enough to equip the armor I'm going to be wearing. I use a grand total of 11 points (5 at Character Creation and 2 full Level Up's worth) to get my Dexterity to 26, then dump the rest into Cunning. My character is actually built around dishing out massive amounts of damage with Lethality.

* I totally bull-sh*tted that.

Modifié par swk3000, 14 décembre 2009 - 12:05 .

[Discobird]

swk3000 wrote...

I understand the whole thing, but until I get some Stamina Regen items, I don't like Momentum.

It seems like after the 1.02 patch, natural regen (without +regen items) is enough to keep Momentum going indefinitely at 50% stamina. Dunno if you've already accounted for that or not.

What's your other specialization going to be? If it's Ranger or Duelist, I'd consider picking it at level 7, putting one point into the tree fairly early (in place of Flurry), and delaying Assassin and Exploit Weakness until level 14. Dueling and Summon Wolf are both pretty good. Note that the Wolf has a nice AOE debuff that reduces enemy defense by 15 for 30 seconds (equal to its recharge). This will really help your to-hit if you're willing to put up with pet tactics.

With this many talents to get, it's probably worth getting a talent tome early on even if this delays your acquisition of Rose's Thorn for a little while.

[Morvayn]

swk3000 wrote...

Sounds like rather solid advice. All the chests I'm going to miss are going to be annoying, but I'll be better in combat, so I guess it can't be helped.

Also, I was hoping to avoid buying tomes, as the things are damn expensive. Still, I'll look into it. Especially to get the Improved Tools talent.

And yes, I did leave out Dual Weapon sweep. Not sure how that happened. Here's what things look like now:

Character Creation: Deft Hands, Dual Weapon Training
Level 2: Stealth
Level 3: Dual Striking
Level 4: Stealthy Item Use
Level 5: Combat Movement, Riposte
Level 6: Below the Belt
Level 7: Deadly Strike
Level 8: Lethality
Level 9: Combat Stealth
Level 10: Flurry
Level 11: Mark of Death
Level 12: Exploit Weakness
Level 13: Momentum

 
You forgot DW sweep again.

I know you said you want it you should really cut on dual striking and riposte. It would make your build easier to planify and a second stun attack is not really needed most of the time (and dual striking sucks for a stabbing rogue!)

[swk3000]

Discobird wrote...

swk3000 wrote...

I understand the whole thing, but until I get some Stamina Regen items, I don't like Momentum.

It seems like after the 1.02 patch, natural regen (without +regen items) is enough to keep Momentum going indefinitely at 50% stamina. Dunno if you've already accounted for that or not.

I can't account for that, because I'm playing the 360 version. No patch has been released for the 360 yet (unless they did it on the sly).

What's your other specialization going to be? If it's Ranger or Duelist, I'd consider picking it at level 7, putting one point into the tree fairly early (in place of Flurry), and delaying Assassin and Exploit Weakness until level 14. Dueling and Summon Wolf are both pretty good. Note that the Wolf has a nice AOE debuff that reduces enemy defense by 15 for 30 seconds (equal to its recharge). This will really help your to-hit if you're willing to put up with pet tactics.

To me, Lethality + Exploit Weakness = Massive amounts of damage. Especially since I'm pumping all but 11 of my Attribute Points into Cunning. I therefore want to get Exploit Weakness as soon as possible, so I'm pretty set on the Assassin as my first Spec. Unfortunately, I don't ever remember to use Mark of Death, so I delayed getting that until the last possible moment.

With this many talents to get, it's probably worth getting a talent tome early on even if this delays your acquisition of Rose's Thorn for a little while.

Yeah, I'm thinking I'm going to have to. It's okay, now, though, as I enter Ostagar with just over 30 Gold, so I can afford to splurge on a Talent Tome if I'm careful about what I buy.

[swk3000]

Morvayn wrote...
You forgot DW sweep again.

Yeah, I did. Sorry.

I know you said you want it you should really cut on dual striking and riposte. It would make your build easier to planify and a second stun attack is not really needed most of the time (and dual striking sucks for a stabbing rogue!)

I'm probably going to drop Riposte now. I worked without it for a while, and got used to doing so, so I barely remember to use it anymore. I'd love to actually have it, but I've apparently gotten so used to working without it that it's become a bit of a third wheel.

[swk3000]

Character Creation: Deft Hands, Dual Weapon Training

Level 2: Stealth

Level 3: Dual Weapon Sweep

Level 4: Stealthy Item Use

Level 5: Combat Movement, Flurry

Level 6: Below the Belt

Level 7: Deadly Strike

Level 8: Lethality

Level 9: Combat Stealth

Level 10: Momentum

Level 11: Mark of Death

Level 12: Exploit Weakness



How's it look? And yes, I included Dual Weapon Sweep this time.

[tetracycloide]

Something to consider, combat movement really doesn't do anything other than make positioning easier. There are a few encounters where there is a difference with and without it (high dragon, flemeth) due to the enemy abilities but for most fights, especially the early fights, there is no difference (although the ogre is an exception). A backstab is a backstab with and without it so why not save the early point and just position directly behind the target instead? I believe it does increase the attack bonus for flanking from directly behind as well but again, early fights don't really feature any high defense targets so it's usefulness is almost entirely later in the game.

[ijmorris]

I have a rouge, and nothing seems to beat her tactic:



1) Stealth, sneak up behind mage

2) Attack + riposte = stunned

3) Flurry from backstab position

4) Double weapon sweep



Will kill a mage almost every time without the mage even being able to attack...

[ijmorris]

of course, next course of action is run as fast as possible back to rest of party with enemies in tow!!!

[Discobird]

swk3000 wrote...

What's your other specialization going to be? If it's Ranger or Duelist, I'd consider picking it at level 7, putting one point into the tree fairly early (in place of Flurry), and delaying Assassin and Exploit Weakness until level 14. Dueling and Summon Wolf are both pretty good. Note that the Wolf has a nice AOE debuff that reduces enemy defense by 15 for 30 seconds (equal to its recharge). This will really help your to-hit if you're willing to put up with pet tactics.

To me, Lethality + Exploit Weakness = Massive amounts of damage. Especially since I'm pumping all but 11 of my Attribute Points into Cunning. I therefore want to get Exploit Weakness as soon as possible, so I'm pretty set on the Assassin as my first Spec.

If you plan to go Duelist or Ranger, you have two options: Assassin first or Duelist/Ranger first.

Assassin first (the most recent build you gave): lethality at 8, momentum at 10, Exploit Weakness at 12, Dueling/Summon Wolf at 14

Duelist/Ranger first: lethality at 8 (not worth delaying I agree), Dueling/Summon Wolf at 10, Momentum at 11, Exploit Weakness at 14.

So the question is whether it's worth getting Dueling/Summon Wolf four levels early at the cost of delaying Momentum by one level and Expoit Weakness by two.

Regarding Momentum: if you have Haste, Momentum doesn't matter (so delaying it one level doesn't matter). If you don't have Haste, you should really get Momentum much sooner. Nothing else you pick in the early levels--not even Lethality--will improve DPS as much as Momentum. The stamina degen isn't *that* bad, I think it's something like -0.5 stamina/second pre-1.02 patch if you have no +regen items.

Regarding Exploit Weakness: you'll probably have about 50-55 cunning at level 12. Exploit Weakness will add about 6.9-7.8 damage to your backstabs. That's a lot, but I think it's at least an open question whether it's worth delaying Dueling/Summon Wolf for four levels to get Exploit Weakness two levels sooner. Summon Wolf adds more DPS than that (and mproves to-hit too).  Dueling maybe not, unless you're missing a lot.

Modifié par Discobird, 14 décembre 2009 - 08:35 .

[Enoch VG]

The Rogue I'm playing now is going the other way-- Dex-centered. Got Momentum at level 4 (and it's invaluable), and have since been sinking Talents into locks/traps and stealth. It's nice not to have to plow through the rather useless prerequisites to get to Lethality.



I haven't yet decided whether I'll stop adding to Cunning at 22 (for skill prereqs), 30 (for the lockpicking boost), or 35 (for the persuasion boost). The second question is whether Lethality will ever be worth the investment-- if my Cunning is only 10 or 15 points higher than my Strength, there are likely better places to spend those 3 Talents.

[arrrasdgaehjskmszkm]

I agree.. Maybe you must consider put some more points into dex. it improves def and your hit rate. If you are going to go hard or nightmare sure you need dex to actually hit something in the beggining... and i pick momentum at the lowest level possible too.
  High cunning gives you high damage and armor penetration, yes, but, unless a duelist you are will missl and be hit more than you like.

An example  :   

[swk3000]

I actually hadn't decided on my second spec yet. I realize all of them are relatively powerful, but I don't actually see one that I really like. At this point, I was just going to go with the Duelist spec, and just picking up Dueling. None of the other 3 skills interest me, except for Keen Defense. And since I'm using Stealth to drop threat, Keen Defense strikes me as mostly unneeded.

I'l start grabbing Momentum early. I could have it by Level 3, but I want to get a few other base skills set up first. Things would therefore look like this:

Character Creation: Deft Hands, Dual Weapon Training
Level 2: Stealth
Level 3: Dual Weapon Sweep
Level 4: Stealthy Item Use
Level 5: Flurry, Momentum
Level 6: Below the Belt
Level 7: Deadly Strike
Level 8: Combat Stealth
Level 9: Lethality
Level 10: Dual Weapon Finesse
Level 11: Mark of Death
Level 12: Master Stealth
Level 13: Exploit Weakness

I'll plan on picking up a Tome of the Physical Technique once I hit Party Camp to pick up Improved Tools, as I'd really like to have that, but don't have the point to spare for it. I'll try working without Combat Movement and see how that works. The main reason I get it is because it means less time moving to the back of the enemy to get into position for a backstab. However, not having it would force me into the area for optimal damage, so I suppose it will balance out.

I apologize for being so wishy-washy, but I do value all the advice. Even if I don't take it.

[Silensfurtim]

arrrasdgaehjskmszkm wrote...

I agree.. Maybe you must consider put some more points into dex. it improves def and your hit rate. If you are going to go hard or nightmare sure you need dex to actually hit something in the beggining... and i pick momentum at the lowest level possible too.
  High cunning gives you high damage and armor penetration, yes, but, unless a duelist you are will missl and be hit more than you like.

An example  :   

35 DEX is enough if you want to backstab 100% of the time. the +20 Flanking bonus will not make you miss at backstabs.

[Morvayn]

swk3000 wrote...

I actually hadn't decided on my second spec yet. I realize all of them are relatively powerful, but I don't actually see one that I really like. At this point, I was just going to go with the Duelist spec, and just picking up Dueling. None of the other 3 skills interest me, except for Keen Defense. And since I'm using Stealth to drop threat, Keen Defense strikes me as mostly unneeded.

I'l start grabbing Momentum early. I could have it by Level 3, but I want to get a few other base skills set up first. Things would therefore look like this:

Character Creation: Deft Hands, Dual Weapon Training
Level 2: Stealth
Level 3: Dual Weapon Sweep
Level 4: Stealthy Item Use
Level 5: Flurry, Momentum
Level 6: Below the Belt
Level 7: Deadly Strike
Level 8: Combat Stealth
Level 9: Lethality
Level 10: Dual Weapon Finesse
Level 11: Mark of Death
Level 12: Master Stealth
Level 13: Exploit Weakness

I'll plan on picking up a Tome of the Physical Technique once I hit Party Camp to pick up Improved Tools, as I'd really like to have that, but don't have the point to spare for it. I'll try working without Combat Movement and see how that works. The main reason I get it is because it means less time moving to the back of the enemy to get into position for a backstab. However, not having it would force me into the area for optimal damage, so I suppose it will balance out.

I apologize for being so wishy-washy, but I do value all the advice. Even if I don't take it.

I don't know which companions you are planning to use but you can consider using Leliana. She could take care of the chests/traps so you could take Combat movement and Coup de grace instead of some lockpicking talents. She may not be the strongest companion (especially at low lvl) but with Song of courage at level 10 she is very useful to you and the group. Plus, as a bonus, she is a great pickpocket too (with stealing 4 at lvl 10 if you wish). Later give her some stealth, lethality and arrow of slaying and she becomes a monster!

Anyway that's what I do now. I use Alistair (tank), Wynne (healer) and Leliana (high cunning bard archer) with my cunning dw rogue. It's a lot easier than trying to build only one cunning rogue who excels at everything.

[plecha]

swk3000 wrote...

[...] I'll try working without Combat Movement and see how that works. [...]

The next one is Coup de Grace, one that i personally wouldn't drop. There are so many ways to immobilize an enemy and this way you won't need to bother about positioning anymore.

[swk3000]

I'd love to pick up Coup de Grace, but it doesn't seem to be worth it without Riposte. Dirty Fighting is a nice stun, but I'd prefer to have 2 stuns with Coup de Grace instead of 1.



As for my party, I'm currently planning on taking Alistair as a Tank and Wynne as a healer. The final slot is up in the air.