109 réponses à ce sujet

[GodlessPaladin]

Oh yeah, and my source for the Geth Trooper health is actually Eric Fagnan (see the Balance Changes thread).

Geth Trooper
- Weapon damage increased from 30 to 35
- (Bronze) Health increased from 750 to 825
- (Silver) Health increased from 1125 to 1238
- (Gold) Health increased from 1688 to 1856

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 02:01 .

[Tybo]

Yes, the source for this is the balance change corrections, at least for the geth. Specifically March 13

Edit: Ninja'd by GP

Modifié par tyhw, 22 juin 2012 - 02:02 .

[ryoldschool]

I'm just trying to find out what the correct formula is. I figured Eric should know since he is part of the folk who make balance changes. If they are going to make changes to the infiltrator class then certainly they should know how the game engine works.

Godless - your post ( outlandish? ) ignores what I was suggesting - the guys who really know the numbers work for bioware, and that maybe published information is not accurate. It is a reasonable possibility for someone with an open mind about this matter.

[GodlessPaladin]

ryoldschool wrote...

I'm just trying to find out what the correct formula is. I figured Eric should know since he is part of the folk who make balance changes. If they are going to make changes to the infiltrator class then certainly they should know how the game engine works.

Godless - your post ( outlandish? ) ignores what I was suggesting - the guys who really know the numbers work for bioware, and that maybe published information is not accurate. It is a reasonable possibility for someone with an open mind about this matter.

No, I didn't ignore what you suggested.  Look at my post which you ignored:  I actually did a second test which refutes your, yes, outlandish hypothesis, since it is based on comparing percentage of observed weapon damage independent of what the weapon damage or enemy health actually is.

Consider:
Case 1:  I have a Salarian Infiltrator with +137.5% damage from other sources and +40% from Sniper Rifles (according to your hypothesis 277.5% total damage)

Case 2:  I have a Human Infiltrator with +142.5% damage from other sources and no sniper rifle bonus.  (242.5% total damage).

Both are using a Black Widow 6.  Both are firing one shot at the body of a Geth Trooper on Gold.

Now, Case 1 shoots the Geth Trooper and kills it in ONE SHOT.  
Case 2 shoots the Geth Trooper and leaves it with 3 bars left.  This means that Case 1 is doing at least 30% more damage than Case 2.

If it was additive, this would not be the case, since 277.5% is about 15% more damage than 242.5%, not >30%.

There is no need to even know the weapon damage or the enemy health here.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 02:17 .

[capn233]

It seems like a multiplier.  That is what others have derrived:

Weapon Damage Formula: Work in Progress

In SP you actually have a different value, but the last evolution of passive for infiltrator will add .15 to the cloak SR damage multiplier.

If it is actually additive then there would have to be some other bonus that nobody knows about hidden in there somewhere.

Modifié par capn233, 22 juin 2012 - 02:18 .

[Metal Vile]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ryoldschool wrote...

I'm just trying to find out what the correct formula is. I figured Eric should know since he is part of the folk who make balance changes. If they are going to make changes to the infiltrator class then certainly they should know how the game engine works.

Godless - your post ( outlandish? ) ignores what I was suggesting - the guys who really know the numbers work for bioware, and that maybe published information is not accurate. It is a reasonable possibility for someone with an open mind about this matter.

No, I didn't ignore what you suggested.  Look at my post which you ignored:  I actually did a second test which refutes your outlandish hypothesis, since it is based on comparing percentage of observed weapon damage independent of what the weapon damage or enemy health actually is.

Consider:
Case 1:  I have a Salarian Infiltrator with +137.5% damage from other sources and +40% from Sniper Rifles (according to your hypothesis 277.5% total damage)

Case 2:  I have a Human Infiltrator with +142.5% damage from other sources and no sniper rifle bonus.  (242.5% total damage).

Both are using a Black Widow 6.  Both are fighting Geth Trooper on Gold.

Now, Case 1 shoots the Geth Trooper and kills it in ONE SHOT.  
Case 2 shoots the Geth Trooper and leaves it with 3 bars left.  This means that Case 1 is doing at least 30% more damage than Case 2.

If it was additive, this would not be the case, since 277.5% is about 15% more damage than 242.5%, not >30%.

There is no need to even know the weapon damage or the enemy health here.

Important to note that while the two cases are approximately different by "30%", that's simply the numerical multiplier.  The actualy % difference is reference to the TOTAL DAMAGE DONE, which is the 15-ish% that GP keeps mentioning.

Just making sure no one gets confused by that.

[ryoldschool]

Dude, can't you discuss something without saying something like "refutes your outlandish hypothesis".

Its not my hypothesis, I was just offering a possible reason for your test. Feel free to PM Eric yourself, maybe he can get you in touch with the game designers. Its not my place to defend what Eric posted, but there is not doubt that what he said is not what I have seen posted on these forums about the 6th evolution of tactical cloak.

[GodlessPaladin]

Metal Vile wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ryoldschool wrote...

I'm just trying to find out what the correct formula is. I figured Eric should know since he is part of the folk who make balance changes. If they are going to make changes to the infiltrator class then certainly they should know how the game engine works.

Godless - your post ( outlandish? ) ignores what I was suggesting - the guys who really know the numbers work for bioware, and that maybe published information is not accurate. It is a reasonable possibility for someone with an open mind about this matter.

No, I didn't ignore what you suggested.  Look at my post which you ignored:  I actually did a second test which refutes your outlandish hypothesis, since it is based on comparing percentage of observed weapon damage independent of what the weapon damage or enemy health actually is.

Consider:
Case 1:  I have a Salarian Infiltrator with +137.5% damage from other sources and +40% from Sniper Rifles (according to your hypothesis 277.5% total damage)

Case 2:  I have a Human Infiltrator with +142.5% damage from other sources and no sniper rifle bonus.  (242.5% total damage).

Both are using a Black Widow 6.  Both are fighting Geth Trooper on Gold.

Now, Case 1 shoots the Geth Trooper and kills it in ONE SHOT.  
Case 2 shoots the Geth Trooper and leaves it with 3 bars left.  This means that Case 1 is doing at least 30% more damage than Case 2.

If it was additive, this would not be the case, since 277.5% is about 15% more damage than 242.5%, not >30%.

There is no need to even know the weapon damage or the enemy health here.

Important to note that while the two cases are approximately different by "30%", that's simply the numerical multiplier.  The actualy % difference is reference to the TOTAL DAMAGE DONE, which is the 15-ish% that GP keeps mentioning.

Just making sure no one gets confused by that.

Right.  40% additive bonus would have given about a 15% total damage dealt advantage over the Bonus Power Human Infiltrator used in the test.  Instead we see a >30% advantage.  This constitutes strong empirical evidence that the TC sniper rifle bonus multiplies total damage, rather than working like any other bonus.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 02:22 .

[peddroelm]

The sixth evolution of the Tactical Cloak - 40% damage for shots fired from cloak with sniper rifles is applied to weapon base damage before multiplication with the sum of damage bonuses ...

- check the Weapon Damage formula link in my signature ...

Whomever is claiming other wise has no clue (Eric Fagnan or not although it would be pretty sad if the person responsible for weapon balance doesn't know the damage formula works ... Hopefully he misunderstood your question ...)

Modifié par peddroelmz, 28 juin 2012 - 01:26 .

[capn233]

peddroelmz wrote...

The sixth evolution of the Tactical Cloak - 40% damage for shots fired from cloak with sniper rifles is applied to weapon base damage before multiplication with the sum of damage bonuses ...

- check the Weapon Damage formula link in my signature ...

Whomever is claiming other wise has no clue (Eric Fagnan or not although it would be pretty sad that the person responsible for weapon balance doesn't know the damage formula works ... Hopefully he misunderstood your question ...)

I already linked your thread, bro

[Metal Vile]

So, its technically being added first instead of last, but this makes no difference because it's in a chain of multipliers.

What we were saying before: (Z base damage x damage modifiers) x 1.4

What actually happens: (Z base damage x 1.4) x damage modifiers (class passives, equipment, power bonuses)

Whereas, if the bonus WERE additive, it would be contained with the "damage modifiers" component of the formula.

[Atheosis]

I call shenanigans. There's no way that's actually how it works. I'd laugh my ass off if it turned out that evo 6 has just been glitched this whole time.

[GodlessPaladin]

Videos! Irrefutable empirical proof!

Test 1 Salarian Infiltrator (SR bonus): www.youtube.com/watch
Test 2 Human Infiltrator (no SR bonus): www.youtube.com/watch

An explanation of the videos for those who didn't read the rest of the thread:

According to the OP, TC rank 6 SR bonus is additive (e.g. formula = (Weapon damage) * (Bonuses + SR bonus)). This test will definitively show whether it behaves like an additive bonus or not.

In CASE 1 I am using a Salarian Infiltrator with a +137.5% bonus (22.5% passive, 25% high caliber barrel, and 90% tactical cloak) as well as the 40% bonus from Tactical Cloak rank 6.

In CASE 2 I am using a Human Infiltrator with a +142.5% bonus (27.5 % passive, 25% high caliber barrel, and 90% tactical cloak) and took Bonus Power instead of Tac Cloak rank 6.

Both cases are using a Black Widow VI and measuring the damage of one cloak shot to a Geth Trooper on Gold.

If the damage is additive (e.g. formula is Damage = (base weapon damage) * (bonuses + SR bonus)) then the Human Infiltrator would be doing about 85% of the Salarian Infiltrator's total damage (Because 277.5% / 242.5% = 1.44329 et cetera, which is about 15%. 100% - 15% = 85%). If it is instead a separate multiplier (e.g. formula is Damage = (Base weapon damage * bonuses) * (SR bonus)) then we will see the Human Infiltrator doing only 60% of the Infiltrator's damage.

Results: When shot by the Salarian Infiltrator, the Geth Trooper dies in one shot. When shot by the Human Infiltrator, the Geth Trooper has 3 bars of health left, meaning that the Human Infiltrator dealt <70% of the damage of the Salarian Infiltrator, which falsifies the hypothesis that the SR bonus is an additive bonus and is consistent with the hypothesis that the SR bonus is a separate multiplier.

Simple science.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 02:55 .

[Metal Vile]

Wow, could you imagine if that were the case? And everything about TC being so good was just a glitch, which they stamp out in another patch?

I think that would actually cause more complaining than a legitimate nerf.

[capn233]

Atheosis wrote...

I call shenanigans. There's no way that's actually how it works. I'd laugh my ass off if it turned out that evo 6 has just been glitched this whole time.

Ha that would be funny.

In reality we can't interpret what he meant without him giving us the official formula. Consider that if it was like this:

NewDmg = BaseWpn*(1 + addbonus1 +  ... addbonusN)*(1 +superbonus1 + ... superbonusN)

Where the addbonuses are from passive and what have you

And superbonuses ended up only including Rank 6 cloak bonus and the Sniper Rifle Damage evolution in Operational Mastery (single player).

In that case it would be an additive bonus, but there wouldn't be anything else that adds to it in MP.

Modifié par capn233, 22 juin 2012 - 02:59 .

[Yajuu Omoi]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

ryoldschool wrote...

deadpixel92 wrote...

ryoldschool wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Chriss5688 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

I just empirically tested this and my results are not consistent with Eric Fagnan's answer. It would not be possible for me to one-shot a Geth Trooper with a Black Widow 6 with no equipment using a Salarian Engineer using Tactical Cloak and no other powers if there was not a multiplier being applied.  And yet I can do it.

Salarian Engineer and Tactical Cloak? I assume you meant Salarian Infiltrator, yes?

Sorry, yes, I meant to say SALARIAN INFILTRATOR.  My bad.

I can upload video proof of my empirical testing if desired.

Just a thought - where did you get the info on the health of the Geth trooper in your test, and also the damage per shot of your weapon?    Could it be that these are in error - maybe those sources are not correct ( or if they are from the PC game, maybe not the same as xbox game ).

docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub

And where is that source?  They can modify the values based on platform ( they said they did that in ME2 ).

Even if your outlandish enemy health theory was correct, it would not explain why I am losing what looks like 40% of my damage rather than 17% when I remove rank 6 tactical cloak from the equation.  If it was additive, I would not go from bodying the enemy to them having 3 or 4 bars left.

dude...that spreadsheet is plain WRONG. a geth pyro has more armor than a geth trooper has health in the game. and the spreadsheet says the opposite. i can bosyshot a trooper with a REGULAR widow VII shot, but a bodyshot to a pyro after shields are gone leaves it with one bar.

just cuz a random person posts it online does NOT mean its correct.

[GodlessPaladin]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

dude...that spreadsheet is plain WRONG. a geth pyro has more armor than a geth trooper has health in the game. and the spreadsheet says the opposite. i can bosyshot a trooper with a REGULAR widow VII shot, but a bodyshot to a pyro after shields are gone leaves it with one bar.

just cuz a random person posts it online does NOT mean its correct.

I didn't reference that spreadsheet.   Deadpixel92 did.  Though I have to wonder what your source on the armor comment is.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 02:58 .

[Rivercurse]

I just worry that if BW achieve their goal of "balancing everything", no one will even be interested in playing anymore as it wont even matter what weapon/class/loadout combo you choose.

I'd leave things the way they are. ME3 MP is fragile enough as it is, and those of you who know me know how long term a fan of the series I am. I don't criticise lightly.  It's just too much micro-management.

Modifié par Rivercurse, 22 juin 2012 - 03:00 .

[KiraTsukasa]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

robarcool wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Eh? Then how come my Krysae can one-shot shielded enemies? Where's the extra damage coming from?

Emm dude, if Eric said that, then unless he changes his statement, you can't argue, for the numbers are with them.

No, actually, they're not.  An appeal to authority is with them. That's a pretty huge difference from numbers.

A Black Widow 6 does 585.4 damage.  I had 22.5% weapon damage from passive, 25% from high caliber barrel, 90% from cloak, and the 40% sniper rifle damage bonus.  This works out to 277.5% weapon damage bonus according to the formula Fagnan allegedly suggested.  2.775*585.4= 1624.485
A Geth Trooper on Gold has 1856 health.

According to the formula Fagnan suggests, I am doing 1624.5 damage.  How is an attack that deals 1624.5 damage killing an enemy with 1856 health in one shot?

By contrast, if the formula was in fact 585.4 * (1+0.225+0.25+0.9) * (1.4) then the result would be 1946.455... just enough to kill a Geth Trooper in a bodyshot.

I can upload video proof if you like.

Shouldn't the equation be 585.4 + (585.4 * 2.775) ? Resulting in a damage of 2209.885, more than enough to kill a geth trooper.

I'm thinking he said that you add all your bonus percentages together and multiply that by the base damage, but neglected to mention that that number is what your bonus damage ends up being and you would have to add the bonus damage to the base damage after calculation.

[capn233]

KiraTsukasa wrote...

Shouldn't the equation be 585.4 + (585.4 * 2.775) ? Resulting in a damage of 2209.885, more than enough to kill a geth trooper.

I'm thinking he said that you add all your bonus percentages together and multiply that by the base damage, but neglected to mention that that number is what your bonus damage ends up being and you would have to add the bonus damage to the base damage after calculation.

No.  If you change the equation to your form then the "bonus" multiplier would be 1.775.

[Yajuu Omoi]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

dude...that spreadsheet is plain WRONG. a geth pyro has more armor than a geth trooper has health in the game. and the spreadsheet says the opposite. i can bosyshot a trooper with a REGULAR widow VII shot, but a bodyshot to a pyro after shields are gone leaves it with one bar.

just cuz a random person posts it online does NOT mean its correct.

I didn't reference that spreadsheet.   Deadpixel92 did.  Though I have to wonder what your source on the armor comment is.

Your spreadsheet says that a pyro has less armor than a trooper has health.

But In the actual game a trooper dies from a single shot, and a shieldless pyro does not.

[deadpixel92]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

dude...that spreadsheet is plain WRONG. a geth pyro has more armor than a geth trooper has health in the game. and the spreadsheet says the opposite. i can bosyshot a trooper with a REGULAR widow VII shot, but a bodyshot to a pyro after shields are gone leaves it with one bar.

just cuz a random person posts it online does NOT mean its correct.

I didn't reference that spreadsheet.   Deadpixel92 did.  Though I have to wonder what your source on the armor comment is.

Apologies for that, didnt checked before posting it, had that link for a long time, it seems is not updated/fixed.

[Eckswhyzed]

Rivercurse wrote...

I just worry that if BW achieve their goal of "balancing everything", no one will even be interested in playing anymore as it wont even matter what weapon/class/loadout combo you choose.

WAT

Balance IS NOT making everything play the same. Of course it will still matter what class/loadout you choose. There's this thing called different playstyles which balance aims to support.

[deadpixel92]

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Yajuu Omoi wrote...

dude...that spreadsheet is plain WRONG. a geth pyro has more armor than a geth trooper has health in the game. and the spreadsheet says the opposite. i can bosyshot a trooper with a REGULAR widow VII shot, but a bodyshot to a pyro after shields are gone leaves it with one bar.

just cuz a random person posts it online does NOT mean its correct.

I didn't reference that spreadsheet.   Deadpixel92 did.  Though I have to wonder what your source on the armor comment is.

Your spreadsheet says that a pyro has less armor than a trooper has health.

But In the actual game a trooper dies from a single shot, and a shieldless pyro does not.

Also are you aware of shield gate? even if that is not the correct armor stat you still wouldnt be able to kill him in one shot with Widow

[KiraTsukasa]

capn233 wrote...

KiraTsukasa wrote...

Shouldn't the equation be 585.4 + (585.4 * 2.775) ? Resulting in a damage of 2209.885, more than enough to kill a geth trooper.

I'm thinking he said that you add all your bonus percentages together and multiply that by the base damage, but neglected to mention that that number is what your bonus damage ends up being and you would have to add the bonus damage to the base damage after calculation.

No.  If you change the equation to your form then the "bonus" multiplier would be 1.775.

Oh, ok. I thought all his bonuses added up to 277.5%. My bad.