45 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

As we all know, there is a great hostility between elves and humans. However, little to no racial tension seems to exist between dwarves and humans and this always surprised me. While I am certain many dwarves do not believe in the Chantry’s reasons for the Blights, it is still the only theory that exists regarding the origins of the Darkspawn; it has been supported by at least one Paragon, Caridin and, if true, it means humanity caused the downfall of the dwarven empire and, quite possibly, the extinction of their entire race in the near future. Hate crimes have been committed for far less.
So; even if neither Orzammar nor Kal’Sharok can afford to fight a war with any human kingdom; why don’t dwarves seem to resent humanity?

[TEWR]

It isn't the only theory. At least, not the only theory period. It's the only in-game theory, though the Dwarves say that the Darkspawn rose up out of the earth beneath their feet -- as told by Shaper Czibor.

I have long since said that I believe the Primeval Thaig is connected to the Darkspawn's origins, possibly even the source of it. I'll dig up some old threads on how I believe this is so, because I really don't want to type it all out again.

And they do resent humanity. For never bothering to assist them in the first place. Humanity seemed content to ignore the Darkspawn threat so long as it wasn't bothering them personally. They even went so far as to erroneously believe that all of the Darkspawn had been eradicated without bothering to check with the Dwarves if that was the case.

The Dwarves may not be hostile to Humans, but they sure as hell resent the choices humanity has made. You see this when talking to Kardol about how he should be more concerned with the coming Blight.

Why? The Darkspawn are always here, always pushing. Your nightmare is my everyday.

The Blights are literally the only time of peace the Dwarves can get when fighting the Darkspawn, because the Darkspawn are more concerned with the surface. As such, their forces underground are in less numbers and thaigs can be reclaimed.

Remember that Caridin isn't exactly a firsthand witness either. The Darkspawn had been around for decades, so his words on the matter aren't exactly the truth. They could be, but I have seen nothing to prove to me that the humans are responsible for the first Darkspawn in existence.

Legacy showed me that they're responsible for the first Awakened Darkspawn in existence, but that is not the same thing as being responsible for the mindless Darkspawn.

See here for one of the many threads where I began discussing my theory.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 juin 2012 - 07:44 .

[MisterJB]

Yes, I meant that there is only one in-universe theory that attempts to explains the origin of the Spawn.

What you speak is true, there are dwarves who show contempt and maybe even resentment for how humans tend to ignore the Darkspawn inbetween Blights but I did not get the impression this translates into the general dwarven population which doesn't make it as noteworthy when compared with the relations between Dalish elves and humans. The games tend to focus on the dwarves desperate struggle for survival against Darkspawn but it barely acknowledges how, if the Chantry's tale is true, the humans played a part in the birth of their nemesis.

And while Caridin's words might not contain the truth, he was still a Paragon which would have lended credibility to the theory among the dwarves and affected how they looked at humanity.

[dragonflight288]

In the dwarven noble origin, you can even comment on the Wardens being good people, for humans. Show a complete disregard for trading good steel and stone for fabrics and silks. Dwarves and humans aren't actively hostile, but there is a lot of tension there.

And in the epilogues, there are two ways to have the Chantry declare an exalted march or seriously consider it. Helping Brother Burkel leads to a slaughter of Andrastian converts, or helping Dagna but not Burkel leads to an independent Circle of Magi starting up in Orzammar, and the Chantry seriously considers an exalted march on the dwarves because of that.

The Dwarves are the only source of lyrium for the surface, even though the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, I suspect they simply want an excuse to take over lyrium mining for themselves. Or did before having their own problems with templars and mages on the surface. All my own opinion.

[DarkDragon777]

I doubt the Dwarves have completely forgotten the times when Tevinter and the Dwarven Empire were close allies.

[Wulfram]

There's a lack of real competition. The Dwarves appear to have never sought to colonise or rule the surface in large numbers, and humans don't want to live in the deep roads.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Wulfram wrote...

There's a lack of real competition. The Dwarves appear to have never sought to colonise or rule the surface in large numbers, and humans don't want to live in the deep roads.

^This. Also they don't believe the Chant Of Light. To them the earth is simply spitting out monsters. Probably because some dwarf dug a little too deep lol.

[dragonflight288]

And the dwarves are afraid of falling into the sky.

[Plaintiff]

As others have said, there is little racial tension because the dwarves and humans are happy to mostly ignore each other.

If the dwarves DO resent humanity for ignoring the darkspawn threat, they must realise it's their own fault for staying cloistered underground and never sharing that information.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

As others have said, there is little racial tension because the dwarves and humans are happy to mostly ignore each other.

If the dwarves DO resent humanity for ignoring the darkspawn threat, they must realise it's their own fault for staying cloistered underground and never sharing that information.

lolwut?

Yes, how dare the Dwarves wish to stay in their ancestral home. It's their own fault they're dying. Common sense apparently doesn't apply to the people of Thedas, so the Dwarves should pick up the slack on that front. If they don't, it's their own fault.

1) Darkspawn are, short of being in an Awakened state, mindless killing machines. 
2) Darkspawn pour out of the Deep Roads.
3) Who lives in the Deep Roads? Dwarves.
4) Whose lands have suffered the most due to the Darkspawn? Dwarves.

Not to mention they have shared their information with people from the surface. Brother Genitivi himself has published books on the Dwarves and their eternal war with the Darkspawn.

And Sister Petrine even makes note that the Darkspawn fled back underground after the First Blight. In fact, society no doubt witnessed their retreat in the first place during that time.

So I would hardly go about casting blame on the Dwarves for dying to protect their homeland, when the people of Thedas ignored the threat that wasn't right at their heels and felt content to erroneously believe that the Darkspawn had been wiped out permanently after the 4th Blight -- without even checking with the Dwarves to make sure if that was the case.

Never mind the fact that humanity is in for a rude awakening if the Dwarven kingdoms perish once and for all. The Dwarves are the only thing keeping the Darkspawn from pouring out into the surface en masse.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Yes, I meant that there is only one in-universe theory that attempts to explains the origin of the Spawn.

What you speak is true, there are dwarves who show contempt and maybe even resentment for how humans tend to ignore the Darkspawn inbetween Blights but I did not get the impression this translates into the general dwarven population which doesn't make it as noteworthy when compared with the relations between Dalish elves and humans.

I think it does extend to the populus at large. We only see it in a few more notable examples, where the Darkspawn are the focus of the discussion with them. Most of the Dwarves we talk to in DAO are concerned with one thing primarily: the Dwarven Civil War.

Remember, their world ended when Endrin perished. So while we only see it in Kardol and maybe a couple others, I think it extends to the entire population.

The Dwarves themselves have very shaky relations between their own brothers from Kal-Sharok. There's a lot  of animosity between the two cities, due to how Orzammar was unable to hold the ground between the two kingdoms. So they had to sacrifice the thaigs that traversed those passages. Matters in that regard aren't helped any by Orzammar's traditionalist stance.

The games tend to focus on the dwarves desperate struggle for survival against Darkspawn but it barely acknowledges how, if the Chantry's tale is true, the humans played a part in the birth of their nemesis.

True. The Chantry's tale only has a grain of truth to it -- and that's really the mindset that should be employed for the Chantry's historical doctrine -- and that grain is that the Magisters did invade the "Golden" City and that the Magisters did become Darkspawn as a result.

But that's where it ends, until proven otherwise. They weren't the first Darkspawn in existence -- merely the first Awakened Darkspawn -- and it's not even confirmed that they did Blacken the "once divine sanctum of the Maker". Corypheus hints that it was always black and corrupt.

And while Caridin's words might not contain the truth, he was still a Paragon which would have lended credibility to the theory among the dwarves and affected how they looked at humanity.

True, his status as a Paragon might make the Dwarves more inclined to believe it.

But you could just as easily say that about a Dwarf Noble Paragon that accessed the royal archives of Orzammar, saw the notes on the Primeval Thaigs*, and came up with a theory like the one I believe.

Point being: Being a Paragon doesn't automatically mean the theory has any merit. For all we know, the Shaperate has similar notes that Caridin took down -- "these horrors the humans unleashed" -- but chose to not believe it anyway, because the first reports of the Darkspawn were that they were coming from underground.

When I say similar notes, I don't mean they had a copy of his journal. But we know through Golems of Amgarrak that some of Caridin's research notes were in Orzammar after he disappeared. So it's logical to assume he may have jotted down a few scribbles saying much the same thing. Or maybe he changed his stance.

Who knows.

*Incidentally, since the notes were sealed in the royal archives of Orzammar, I take that to mean that there's a Primeval Thaig near Orzammar itself. Since I doubt that any Orzammar Dwarf could make it to Kirkwall's Primeval Thaig and back and live.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 juin 2012 - 04:43 .

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

As others have said, there is little racial tension because the dwarves and humans are happy to mostly ignore each other.

If the dwarves DO resent humanity for ignoring the darkspawn threat, they must realise it's their own fault for staying cloistered underground and never sharing that information.

lolwut?

Yes, how dare the Dwarves wish to stay in their ancestral home. It's their own fault they're dying. Common sense apparently doesn't apply to the people of Thedas, so the Dwarves should pick up the slack on that front. If they don't, it's their own fault.

1) Darkspawn are, short of being in an Awakened state, mindless killing machines. 
2) Darkspawn pour out of the Deep Roads.
3) Who lives in the Deep Roads? Dwarves.
4) Whose lands have suffered the most due to the Darkspawn? Dwarves.

Not to mention they have shared their information with people from the surface. Brother Genitivi himself has published books on the Dwarves and their eternal war with the Darkspawn.

And Sister Petrine even makes note that the Darkspawn fled back underground after the First Blight. In fact, society no doubt witnessed their retreat in the first place during that time.

So I would hardly go about casting blame on the Dwarves for dying to protect their homeland, when the people of Thedas ignored the threat that wasn't right at their heels and felt content to erroneously believe that the Darkspawn had been wiped out permanently after the 4th Blight -- without even checking with the Dwarves to make sure if that was the case.

Never mind the fact that humanity is in for a rude awakening if the Dwarven kingdoms perish once and for all. The Dwarves are the only thing keeping the Darkspawn from pouring out into the surface en masse.

Someone's overreacting.

I never said the Dwarves should abandon the Deep Roads permanently, I said they shouldn't cloister themselves, meaning they should open the doors and let more people in instead of yelling at them to go away like the angsty teenager in an after school special.

Someone wrote a book about it? Oh, well that changes everything in a society where the printing press hasn't been invented and people only learn to read if their parents know how and have the time to teach them.

Orzammar is an extremely rigid society that deliberately closes itself off to the outside world. Humans are typically not allowed in, dwarves that go to the surface ae typically not allowed to return. Pretty much the only exceptions are the Grey Wardens and the occasional political delegate.

All I'm saying is that if the dwarves want and expect help with the Darkspawn, they could just try simply asking for it. They don't have a right to feel resentful about a lack of aid from the surface, when they've made it so abundantly clear that surfacers are not wanted or trusted. They have to accept some measure of responsibility for their own situation.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 juin 2012 - 01:39 .

[dragonflight288]

Exactly where do the Dwarves turn visitors away? There was the incident with Loghain's self-righteous messenger in Origins, and that was because the Dwarves simply wanted to settle the issue with their own political problems and didn't want to deal with any issues from the surface.

They also invite merchants in at all times. And the Chantry HAS to have someone going to Orzammar to get lyrium, as they control the lyrium trade, outside of smugglers obviously. Then we had that elven outsider who we can piece his sword back together in Origins who, of his own volition, went and fought with the Legion of the Dead, and was honored by the dwarves for his willingness to fight alongside them.

[Plaintiff]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Exactly where do the Dwarves turn visitors away? There was the incident with Loghain's self-righteous messenger in Origins, and that was because the Dwarves simply wanted to settle the issue with their own political problems and didn't want to deal with any issues from the surface.

It's pretty well established that the Orzammar dwarves are deeply superstitious and mistrustful of the surface in general. I don't know how you could possibly miss it.

If the only thing was that they didn't want to deal with outside political bullcrap, how come the Warden and his party are the only humans or elves in Orzammar at any given moment throughout the entire game?

They also invite merchants in at all times.

No. Merchants stay outside, and trade with them is actually quite limited. If you speak to a merchant in the Commons he will tell you that he supports Bhelen specifically because Bhelen wants to increase trade relations with the surface (as opposed to Harrowmont, who would keep things the same, or enforce even tighter regulations).

In fact, it seems that Orzammar conducts outside trade informally, through "surface dwarves", and speaking with a couple of them will reveal that the long-standing laws and traditions of Orzammar basically forbid them from ever going back inside, having elected to leave. In order to study at the Circle of Magi, Dagna has to give up caste and clan. Essentially, dwarves that leave cease to be dwarves in the sense that Orzammar's society defines them. At best, they're an embarassment to their families, a scandal on par with dallying with casteless.

And the Chantry HAS to have someone going to Orzammar to get lyrium, as they control the lyrium trade, outside of smugglers obviously.

Going to Orzammar is not the same as going inside. And it's entirely possible that Orzammar has specially sanctioned envoys to deliver the lyrium, or utilises surface dwarves.

Then we had that elven outsider who we can piece his sword back together in Origins who, of his own volition, went and fought with the Legion of the Dead, and was honored by the dwarves for his willingness to fight alongside them.

An extremely rare occurence that happened years, possibly decades or even centuries ago. An exception, not the rule.

Really, the only thing stopping humanity's history with the dwarves being as bloody as their relationship with the elves is the fact that, for some reason, dwarves and humans are content to ignore each other completely except when there is a mutually beneficial deal to be made. It's strictly business. As evidenced by the epilogue slides (and to a lesser extent, hints you receive while playing), the introduction of religion or mage-relevent politics sends the whole thing straight to hell.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 juin 2012 - 05:57 .

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

Someone's overreacting.

Ha, nah if I was overreacting my post would've been more then what it was.

Plaintiff wrote...
I never said the Dwarves should abandon the Deep Roads permanently, I said they shouldn't cloister themselves, meaning they should open the doors and let more people in instead of yelling at them to go away like the angsty teenager in an after school special.

Ah, my apologies for misunderstanding your post.

How do you know previous Dwarven Kings haven't done such things? King Eithnar Bemot declared that in times of war, the army of Orzammar was answerable only to the king. Which is the right mindset, considering the Dwarves are always in war.

Given that he disbanded the Assembly for 2 years to achieve such a thing, it seems he was a reformist of sorts.

True, most Dwarves are fervent Traditionalists, but we have no proof that the long history of prior Dwarven Kings were also such. But we have King Bemot who was a reformer of sorts and we have House Ferald's last member, who had often argued for reformist policies.

While those two are exceptions to the rule, they do show that some of Orzammar's elite understand how change needs to happen, which opens up the possibility that other kings and queens of Orzammar felt the same.

Obviously, they failed. But that's another story.

Someone wrote a book about it? Oh, well that changes everything in a society where the printing press hasn't been invented and people only learn to read if their parents know how and have the time to teach them.

Your statement above was that they didn't share information about their burdens, period.

My counter-argument to that was that they do in fact share information to surfacers. Since Brother Genitivi knows about it and is a renowned Chantry Scholar, he can inform the Chantry about it. Then they would know and if they cared -- unlikely, as the Dwarves might request Mages to help with battle and healing -- they would do something.

Then we have the Elven Topsider who knew about the Dwarves' burden and went down there to help them fight the Darkspawn.

Along with one of the Pentaghast family who faced exile from his homeland and joined the Legion of the Dead.

So the information is out there. The Dwarves are hardly twiddling their thumbs and keeping it to themselves. People know.

Even if the commoners didn't know due to lack of being taught how to read, the Mages of Circles would more then likely know, the Chantry priests would know, and the nobility would know.

Or should, as they are all taught how to read. Whether they bother to actually read such books and notes detailing the Dwarves' burden is unknown.

And besides, common sense doesn't require knowing how to read. Humanity has known in the previous Blights that the Darkspawn flee underground.

By the end of the 4th Blight, they began to act like idiots and believe Darkspawn were gone forever.

By the time of the 5th Blight, some commoners thought Orzammar would be safe from the Darkspawn.

Like I said before, the Dwarves can hardly be blamed for humanity's stupidity and lack of common sense.

Orzammar is an extremely rigid society that deliberately closes itself off to the outside world. Humans are typically not allowed in, dwarves that go to the surface ae typically not allowed to return. Pretty much the only exceptions are the Grey Wardens and the occasional political delegate.

I won't contest how rigid they are in their traditions. In fact, I'm a supporter of reformation in Dwarven society. Their traditionalism would be fine were there no Darkspawn threat.

But I was contesting how you were saying it was their own fault for not sharing any of the information on their plight with other societies, because they have done just that.

All I'm saying is that if the dwarves want and expect help with the Darkspawn, they could just try simply asking for it. They don't have a right to feel resentful about a lack of aid from the surface, when they've made it so abundantly clear that surfacers are not wanted or trusted. They have to accept some measure of responsibility for their own situation.

No they don't.

They shouldn't have to ask for the obvious. No one should.

If you're trapped under a car, should you have to ask for people to help you out from under said car? If you're about to be murdered, should you ask for people to assist you and save you from such a fate?

You can say Harrowmont made things worse for the Dwarves by cranking traditionalist policies up to eleven -- really, there's no way anyone can deny that -- but you can't say the Dwarves are all to blame.

Plaintiff wrote...

No. Merchants stay outside, and trade with them is actually quite limited. If you speak to a merchant in the Commons he will tell you that he supports Bhelen specifically because Bhelen wants to increase trade relations with the surface (as opposed to Harrowmont, who would keep things the same, or enforce even tighter regulations).

He says that Bhelen supports increasing the amount of trade, not that he wants to start trading -- which is what your post here implies despite you saying what Bhelen truly wants to do.

The merchants only stay outside because of Orzammar's political crisis. If you talk to Ahren the merchant, he says that when he goes to Orzammar he runs a stall in the Commons and resupplies there twice a year.

Bhelen would have Ahren there 10x as much as he is now (as an example to showcase how Bhelen would have merchants there more and more). Bhelen's opting for more trade with the surface. The surface merchants already trade in Orzammar though.

It's not enough certainly. But the merchants do go in there to trade, rather then always stay outside.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 juin 2012 - 12:30 .

[dragonflight288]

It's pretty well established that the Orzammar dwarves are deeply superstitious and mistrustful of the surface in general. I don't know how you could possibly miss it.

If the only thing was that they didn't want to deal with outside political bullcrap, how come the Warden and his party are the only humans or elves in Orzammar at any given moment throughout the entire game?

For the same reasons that Etheral said, political bullcrap of the Dwarves. And we just so happened to have a treaty on us with the seal of the King of Orzammar, so only a King can address our concerns, so we had full rights to go in and request aid from the Assembly as there was no king. Every other surfacer in the game didn't have such a convenient parchment with a convenient seal during an inconvenient political turmoil.

In a codex regarding the Paragon statues, they are deliberately placed in the entrance hall as a way to impress any visitors from the surface, as well as let dwarves who are leaving for the surface see what they are losing. And we aren't the only visitors. The Antivan Crows have us assassinate a diplomat who's a guest of the dwarves. If you play Dwarf noble or Casteless, Duncan and the Wardens are there in Orzammar as honored guests.

And no, I didn't miss that dwarves are suspicious and mistrustful of the surfacers. I was simply pointing out that they aren't as disconnected from the surface as some traditionalists would want, because Orzammar simply can't survive without surface trade.

Add in Awakening, no matter which king we aid, still sends dwarves to help us in Amaranthine, and they aren't considered surface dwarves as they are on the King's errand as a way to help out the Warden, who had helped them.

The dwarves are good traders and would make excellent allies. My opinion is that the surface can be very idiotic and many erroneously believed the darkspawn were gone for good, up until Ostagar. There is more than enough evidence, and enough surfacers know the truth, that if the Chantry or the kingdoms of Thedas wanted to help fight the darkspawn, they would.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

It's pretty well established that the Orzammar dwarves are deeply superstitious and mistrustful of the surface in general. I don't know how you could possibly miss it.

If the only thing was that they didn't want to deal with outside political bullcrap, how come the Warden and his party are the only humans or elves in Orzammar at any given moment throughout the entire game?

As dragonflight288 said, they have the treaties which compelled the King of Orzammar -- or when times are lacking for that person, the Assembly -- to address the concerns. Plus Duncan and his Wardens are in Orzammar as honored guests. King Cailan and King Maric even attended a Proving many years prior to Origins.

Loghain's messenger Imrek didn't have anything of the sort. No treaty or anything.

Additionally, the Antivan Crows want you to assassinate an ambassador there. Plus, as was stated before, an Elven warrior fought with the Legion of the Dead of his own volition to help them stave off the Darkspawn, saving many lives with his skill in battle.

They even buried him as they would bury any Dwarf -- partly due to being unaware of how Elves were traditionally buried, but also due to the enormous amount of respect they held for him.

Then there's the Hall of Heroes, built specifically to serve a dual purpose. Show outsiders Orzammar society and show Dwarves that leave what they're leaving behind.

And Amgarrak had a Tevinter Magister helping the Dwarves recreate Golems. They failed, but Orzammar's Dwarves accepted her aid.

Orzammar is not adverse to welcoming and entertaining surfacers. They actually enjoy doing so. Under Harrowmont, they start to become cloistered in as you put it. But under previous kings or under Bhelen, they were nothing of the sort.

dragonflight288 wrote...

The dwarves are good traders and would make excellent allies. My opinion is that the surface can be very idiotic and many erroneously believed the darkspawn were gone for good, up until Ostagar. There is more than enough evidence, and enough surfacers know the truth, that if the Chantry or the kingdoms of Thedas wanted to help fight the darkspawn, they would.

Precisely. The knowledge exists and is in the hands of royals and the Chantry. That there is no assistance given to the Dwarves by them is a sign that they feel content to ignore the threat so long as it's not immediately bothering them, not that the Dwarves have never deigned to inform the surface of what they have suffered for hundreds of years.

The only help the Dwarves receive in fighting the Darkspawn are from aging Wardens and the rare surfacer that journeys to the Deep Roads for their own reasons.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 juin 2012 - 12:43 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
No they don't.

They shouldn't have to ask for the obvious. No one should.

If you're trapped under a car, should you have to ask for people to help you out from under said car? If you're about to be murdered, should you ask for people to assist you and save you from such a fate?

You can say Harrowmont made things worse for the Dwarves by cranking traditionalist policies up to eleven -- really, there's no way anyone can deny that -- but you can't say the Dwarves are all to blame.

It's not the same thing. You can't really expect any nation to send its army to die in the Deep Roads for a problem that only affects them every 300 years or so. Especially since the Wardens themselves don't seem to believe thee Darkspawn can be truly erradicated.

[dragonflight288]

Very well. How about this, when the darkspawn wipe out the dwarves, the Chantry and the surfacers can send down their own expedition teams to fight off the darkspawn who'll be attacking the surface every day from that point, and mine lyrium for the mages and templars themselves.

If they can manage. They're nightmare every few hundred years would suddenly become their every day.

[MisterJB]

Unlike the dwarves, humans could just collapse every known path to the Deep Roads. Eventually, the Darkspawn will just create a new Abyssal Rift but it doesn't mean humans will have to fight the Spawn every day.

I still wish all the nations of Thedas would unite to, at the very least, retake some territory in the Deep Roads. Just because the extinction of any species is an immesurable tragedy, if for nothing else.
I just don't think it will ever happen.

[Fallstar]

According to that dwarf in Awakening who repairs the walls n stuff, the barrier door he finished off should last for around a decade. If things ever got so bad that Orzammar had to abandon hope of ever retaking lost ground, they could just build a succession of those barrier doors in the tunnels. Which would buy them a century or two to see if a more permanent solution couldn't be devised.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 25 juin 2012 - 12:46 .

[MisterJB]

It would probrably be difficult to accomplish that with the Darkspawn constantly attacking the building teams.

[Fallstar]

X                                                             |
Darkspawn                                          Barrier door
have reached                                       is constructed
this point                                               here

Once they've built the first one, they can use the time that gives them to build the second.

Edit: Foiled by formatting 

Modifié par DuskWarden, 25 juin 2012 - 12:52 .

[M_Kirkwall]

Two words friend..

Lyrium trade.

Modifié par rev0n, 25 juin 2012 - 12:58 .

[dragonflight288]

If the dwarves are lost, the templars, all of them, good and bad, are doomed to insanity or death from lyrium withdrawal.