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[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
No they don't.

They shouldn't have to ask for the obvious. No one should.

If you're trapped under a car, should you have to ask for people to help you out from under said car? If you're about to be murdered, should you ask for people to assist you and save you from such a fate?

You can say Harrowmont made things worse for the Dwarves by cranking traditionalist policies up to eleven -- really, there's no way anyone can deny that -- but you can't say the Dwarves are all to blame.

It's not the same thing. You can't really expect any nation to send its army to die in the Deep Roads for a problem that only affects them every 300 years or so. Especially since the Wardens themselves don't seem to believe thee Darkspawn can be truly erradicated.

I do expect them to assist in various forms, lending soldiers to fight in the frey only being one.

Dwarves do not have the luxury of mages and magic. The surface lands do and the Chantry is in control of the Mages. The Chantry could lend Orzammar some Mages to help with healing and fighting. They could send some Templars to deal with Darkspawn Emissaries.

Kings and Queens could send apostates to help as well, since apostates fall under the jurisdiction of the monarchy -- assuming the monarchy is able to get to them before the Chantry does (per Alistair in DAII).

Even a squadron of human soldiers could help them out.

At any rate, Alistair and Anora are willing to send some of their soldiers to help push back the Darkspawn after the Blight has been defeated.

Plus, look at it this way: The Dwarves are the only thing keeping the Darkspawn from pouring out onto the surface. When they perish, the surface lands will have to pick up the slack on matters that they felt content to ignore. They'll have to fight Darkspawn night and day just to survive. They'll have to mine lyrium and learn how to do it safely since the Dwarves no longer can.

They'll pretty much be ****ed. And that's assuming humanity doesn't lose their sanity from the change of events.

A short term thinker -- and that's exactly what the surface lands are -- only sees the immediate threat (the Blights). A long term thinker sees that the Dwarves are necessary to protecting the world, just as much as the Grey Wardens are.

[DPSSOC]

MisterJB wrote...

As we all know, there is a great hostility between elves and humans. However, little to no racial tension seems to exist between dwarves and humans and this always surprised me. While I am certain many dwarves do not believe in the Chantry’s reasons for the Blights, it is still the only theory that exists regarding the origins of the Darkspawn; it has been supported by at least one Paragon, Caridin and, if true, it means humanity caused the downfall of the dwarven empire and, quite possibly, the extinction of their entire race in the near future. Hate crimes have been committed for far less.
So; even if neither Orzammar nor Kal’Sharok can afford to fight a war with any human kingdom; why don’t dwarves seem to resent humanity?

I think the reason is just simple pragmatism.  Even if the Dwarves do blame Humans for the darkspawn what does resenting them accomplish?  Will disliking humans make the darkspawn go away?  Will refusing to trade with or fighting humans end the darkspawn menace.  The Dwarves have a real problem they have to deal with every day, they don't have time to point fingers.

Admittedly this explanation falls a little flat when you see just how petty Dwarven nobility can be.  I was going to compare the Dwarves to the Borderlands from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series but on further consideration the comparisson only works when applied to the Legion of the Dead (as far as characters we meet).  The Dwarven nobility is just too petty and self absorbed, and Dwarven Warriors we encounter aren't much better, for the comparisson to work.  Which seems really odd, you'd think the constant threat of death would help keep their priorities straight but no.

[Fallstar]

DPSSOC wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

As we all know, there is a great hostility between elves and humans. However, little to no racial tension seems to exist between dwarves and humans and this always surprised me. While I am certain many dwarves do not believe in the Chantry’s reasons for the Blights, it is still the only theory that exists regarding the origins of the Darkspawn; it has been supported by at least one Paragon, Caridin and, if true, it means humanity caused the downfall of the dwarven empire and, quite possibly, the extinction of their entire race in the near future. Hate crimes have been committed for far less.
So; even if neither Orzammar nor Kal’Sharok can afford to fight a war with any human kingdom; why don’t dwarves seem to resent humanity?

I think the reason is just simple pragmatism.  Even if the Dwarves do blame Humans for the darkspawn what does resenting them accomplish?  Will disliking humans make the darkspawn go away?  Will refusing to trade with or fighting humans end the darkspawn menace.  The Dwarves have a real problem they have to deal with every day, they don't have time to point fingers.

Admittedly this explanation falls a little flat when you see just how petty Dwarven nobility can be.  I was going to compare the Dwarves to the Borderlands from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series but on further consideration the comparisson only works when applied to the Legion of the Dead (as far as characters we meet).  The Dwarven nobility is just too petty and self absorbed, and Dwarven Warriors we encounter aren't much better, for the comparisson to work.  Which seems really odd, you'd think the constant threat of death would help keep their priorities straight but no.

That's if they are actually entirely blameless themselves. Codex entries in DA2 indicate at least one dwarven king knew of the Primeval Thaig and sealed the information away, and who knows what the Dwarves in that thaig got up to that modern dwarves wouldn't want outsiders to know about.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 25 juin 2012 - 03:29 .

[dragonflight288]

Well, no one ever claimed that nobles with the stick called tradition they keep up their butts are the most intelligent people.

Of course, no one ever claimed politicians in general were ever intelligent either.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
They'll have to fight Darkspawn night and day just to survive.

As I've mentioned before, unlike the dwarves, humans could just collapse every known entrance to the Deep Roads. Darkspawn will create another Abyssal Rift eventually but we won't have to fight them everyday.

They'll have to mine lyrium and learn how to do it safely since the Dwarves no longer can.

A fair point.

They'll pretty much be ****ed. And that's assuming humanity doesn't lose their sanity from the change of events.

And why would humanity lose their sanity?

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

As I've mentioned before, unlike the dwarves, humans could just collapse every known entrance to the Deep Roads. Darkspawn will create another Abyssal Rift eventually but we won't have to fight them everyday.

My memory on the Abyssal Reach is a bit shaky. What is its history again? I know it's a region in Orlais, but that's all I can recall.

And that's only a temporary solution at best and at worst it does nothing to change the problem. The darkspawn would either create a new one or find an unknown entrance out of the Deep Roads and make use of that.

Darkspawn are renowned at digging. Collapsing a tunnel would only serve as a distraction for maybe a few months at best, not as any sort of long term solution.

And eventually, I think you'd run the risk of geographic damage by repeated applications of explosions to collapse a tunnel. I dunno. I don't claim to be an expert on the structural integrity of caverns when explosives are used repeatedly to collapse them.

But you'd also have to have people monitoring those areas. And when the Darkspawn would finally break through, I highly doubt a few guards will be able to stand up against a horde of Darkspawn.

And why would humanity lose their sanity?

Fighting monsters day in and day out, with no end in sight? Running the risk of contracting a deadly disease that will render you insane, turn your mind to sludge, and leave your body wracked with pain? Knowing full well what will happen to women if they're caught by the Darkspawn?

People would definitely lose their sanity over all of that. It's honestly surprising that the Dwarves haven't and that we haven't seen any Dwarf exhibit such a lack of sanity due to those factors.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2012 - 06:17 .

[Fallstar]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

As I've mentioned before, unlike the dwarves, humans could just collapse every known entrance to the Deep Roads. Darkspawn will create another Abyssal Rift eventually but we won't have to fight them everyday.

My memory on the Abyssal Reach is a bit shaky. What is its history again? I know it's a region in Orlais, but that's all I can recall.

It's the area that Wynne takes Rhys to in Asunder, with the fortress nearby that the tranquil Pharamond was using for his research. It's a massive chasm that was basically the point of origin for one of the blights

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
My memory on the Abyssal Reach is a bit shaky. What is its history again? I know it's a region in Orlais, but that's all I can recall.

During the Second Blight, somehow, the Darkspawn managed to crack the earth in two, creating a colossal rift (at it's largest, you can't even see the other side of it) that allowed them to attack directly inside Orlais' borders.
They could probrably do it again if the humans collapse the existing tunnels.

And that's only a temporary solution at best and at worst it does nothing to change the problem. The darkspawn would either create a new one or find an unknown entrance out of the Deep Roads and make use of that.

Darkspawn are renowned at digging. Collapsing a tunnel would only serve as a distraction for maybe a few months at best, not as any sort of long term solution.

And eventually, I think you'd run the risk of geographic damage by repeated applications of explosions to collapse a tunnel. I dunno. I don't claim to be an expert on the structural integrity of caverns when explosives are used repeatedly to collapse them.

Yes, of course it would only be a temporary solution.
My point was that just because the dwarves dissapear, humans won't be imediatelly placed in the position their kin is now, with the largest portion of their territory conquered and the Darkspawn at the gates of the capital.
Collapsing the tunnels would serve to prevent them from gaining a foothold and buy time for the kingdoms to devise a more permanent solution.

Fighting monsters day in and day out, with no end in sight? Running the risk of contracting a deadly disease that will render you insane, turn your mind to sludge, and leave your body wracked with pain? Knowing full well what will happen to women if they're caught by the Darkspawn?

People would definitely lose their sanity over all of that. It's honestly surprising that the Dwarves haven't and that we haven't seen any Dwarf exhibit such a lack of sanity due to those factors.

Humans dealt with all of that during the First Blight that lasted for two centuries.
Also, does anyone besides the Grey Wardens knowm what happens to the females? The Ferelden people don't know ;which is understandable due to how both the Spawn and the Wardens never had a very strong presence there before the Fifth Blight; but do the dwarves?

Humans also deal with mages on a daily basis. From the mighty Magisters who can whatever they please with the lives of others to the fear that an hiding apostate might turn into an Abomination in the middle of the market to the possibility that your child might be born a mage and be torn from your family.
Finally, there was the war with the qunari that still rages on as far as Tevinter is concerned.

I'm not claiming it wouldn't take its toll. Just that people are sturdier than that much like the dwarves have proven.

[Emzamination]

O there's tension, the Dwarves commit heresy by worshipping the stone,the mortal souls of their ancestors and their blasphemous paragons which they see as living gods.The chantry does not approve one bit of the Dwarves barbaric heathenism and blantant disrespect to the maker.The only thing that has kept those heathenistic midgets from being converted to the true faith by a templar army is their ability to mine and process lyrium safely which the templars need to battle the tyranical mages.

Maybe once the chantry recovers from the war we'll bring an exalted march down on the dwarve's heads and march them down to the lyrium mines to work in penance for all the astrocities they've commited against the maker.

[TEWR]

double post.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2012 - 09:11 .

[TEWR]

DuskWarden wrote...

It's a massive chasm that was basically the point of origin for one of the blights

M. Bison voice: Of course!

Makes sense.

MisterJB wrote...

Yes, of course it would only be a temporary solution.
My point was that just because the dwarves dissapear, humans won't be imediatelly placed in the position their kin is now, with the largest portion of their territory conquered and the Darkspawn at the gates of the capital.
Collapsing the tunnels would serve to prevent them from gaining a foothold and buy time for the kingdoms to devise a more permanent solution.

There is no permanent solution, short of the Architect's new plan succeeding and the Darkspawn live as hermits.

So collapsing the tunnels is not a viable solution at all to be repeatedly done, because there is no way to end the Darkspawn permanently.

Humans dealt with all of that during the First Blight that lasted for two centuries.

And people panicked, fervently crying out to the Old Gods for help. They even began to worship the Darkspawn, desperately hoping they wouldn't die if they did so.

The First Blight took its toll on the mind and the body.

Also, does anyone besides the Grey Wardens knowm what happens to the females? The Ferelden people don't know ;which is understandable due to how both the Spawn and the Wardens never had a very strong presence there before the Fifth Blight; but do the dwarves?

The Legion knows, and I imagine they would tell the Kings and deshyrs of Orzammar. Branka found out.

Humans also deal with mages on a daily basis. From the mighty Magisters who can whatever they please with the lives of others to the fear that an hiding apostate might turn into an Abomination in the middle of the market to the possibility that your child might be born a mage and be torn from your family.

But Abominations are also rarely seen in the countryside due to the Circle system -- a system I oppose in its current form -- and the slaves of Magisters often develop psychological conditions where their will is broken. They don't fight back because mentally they just can't.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 juin 2012 - 09:18 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't think just because another people have ultimately caused the downfall of your society neccessarily makes you hate them, as ironic as that seems.

For all intents and purposes, you'd think a lot of people would hate Germany, for example. The Gauls, rough ancestors of the land that would become Germany, sacked and burned Rome, causing the collapse of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the Dark Ages. In World War 1, the Ottoman Empire siding with the Germans caused their entire empire, the longest and most stable lasting in history (even more than the Chinese or Roman), was carved into warlike factions by Europe, the source of much of the tensions and instability in the Middle East today. Japan, after being goaded into joining the German Axis, remains to this day the only country in the world to be attacked by nuclear weapons.

But you don't hear about your average Italian, Arab or Japanese person venting against the German people. Even though they may have a legitimate right to, based on history.

That's because there's KNOWING something to be true, and then having that knowledge affect your feelings. This is especially true of large group mindsets - people's animosities and fears hardly ever make sense. People hate who they shouldn't and are ambivalent toward their worst detractors. Sometimes that's just the nature of things.

[Fast Jimmy]

Double post:bandit:

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 25 juin 2012 - 09:59 .

[dragonflight288]

For those who think humanity will be fine if the dwarves were lost, let me ask you this, how would you train new templars under the current standards? Where would mages get lyrium for their magical rituals so they could avoid using blood magic as a catalyst instead?

Dwarves are the only ones who can mine and handle lyrium safely, and even then there are risks. Without lyrium, templars will go insane or die from lyrium withdrawal and mages doing their own magical research and experiments would either not be able to do certain things or be forced into using blood magic. (Merrill could easily have cleansed the eluvian shard if she had lyrium, she openly says this and if she did, she would've used it. But she didn't but she did have her own blood.)

Add in the constant attacks by the darkspawn. And you simply can't just collapse the tunnels. The tunnels cover ALL of Thedas. That's in the codex regarding the old dwarven empire.

[Blacklash93]

Perhaps the Dwarves pin it specifically on mages as well. Have we heard their general attitude on mages?

It wouldn't really be rational to pin it on one race or group, though. The people involved with the creation of the darkspawn were a small band of cultists who even only did it on accident.

[MisterJB]

That's quite an interesting tought, Fast Jimmy.

dragonflight288 wrote...

For those who think humanity will be fine
Add in the constant attacks by the darkspawn. And you simply can't just collapse the tunnels. The tunnels cover ALL of Thedas. That's in the codex regarding the old dwarven empire.

Correction. You could collapse the entrances to block their passsages, dwarves done as much. It is, ultimately, a temporary solution, of course.
Obviously, you can't collapse the entirety of Thedas' underground.

Anywa, I did not claim humans would be just fine if Orzammar or Kal-Sharok fell. I simply contested the idea humanity would lose its sanity or be incapable of dealing with the Darkspawn.
You have good points as to why dwarves are important to the social structure of Thedas.

Blacklash93 wrote...

Perhaps the Dwarves pin it specifically on mages as well. Have we heard their general attitude on mages?

It wouldn't really be rational to pin it on one race or group, though. The people involved with the creation of the darkspawn were a small band of cultists who even only did it on accident.

These are the same people who believe parentage determines the worth of an individual.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 juin 2012 - 08:38 .

[Blacklash93]

MisterJB wrote...
These are the same people who believe parentage determines the worth of an individual.

True enough. Just throwing ideas out. Though I doubt their caste system and values entirely translates to entire races.

Perhaps Dwarves don't want to believe the Black City story because they're afraid it might imply the existance of the Maker and debunk the Stone as the sole or greatest deity/force that rules Thedas if it doesn't discredit their faith enitrely.

Perhaps their rich trade and perception of humans as a capable and respectable race overrides any ideas of the past mistakes of a small group of cultists who belonged to a line of people even the majority of humans hate and fear.

[EricHVela]

Back to the OP: I think that many Dwarves who live underground believe that they are better than the surface races, including Surface Dwarves. I think they tolerate their existence but have no cause for resentment like the Elves and Humans.

I know why Elves resent Humans, but I find it difficult to grasp the idea that the Humans mistook the Elves isolation from the "quick children" as hostility. (IMHO, it sounds like nothing more than an excuse for the Imperium.) Yet, that's for another topic I suppose.

[TEWR]

Blacklash93 wrote...
Perhaps Dwarves don't want to believe the Black City story because they're afraid it might imply the existance of the Maker and debunk the Stone as the sole or greatest deity/force that rules Thedas if it doesn't discredit their faith enitrely.

They've never denied the existence of the Maker outright. They haven't given the notion credence either. They just don't see Him as anyone worth worshipping. To them, the Stone is real and all around them.

David Gaider wrote...

Well, the dwarves don't give much credence to the idea of gods to begin with. To them, the Stone is the closest they come -- it is all around them, and when they say they are the Children of the Stone they mean that literally. Like some ancient myths in our world claim that humanity was formed from clay, the dwarves believe that they are quite literally born of the stone. When someone dies, their spirit returns to the stone. Those who are worthy make the stone stronger, while those who are unworthy make the stone weaker. An important concept in a world where the strength of the roof over your head determines not only your own surviveability but also that of your family and community. The most worthy, the Paragons, are those who add the most to the Stone when they die. Thus they are worthy of reverance, and held up as an ideal for other dwarves to aspire to.

Much like the elven myths, however, the dwarven notion of the Stone -- while anthropomorphized considerably into a sort-of deity, not surprising considering the idea that the rock around the dwarves gives them everything they exist in -- doesn't contradict the idea that a creator might have created the Stone itself. They just don't believe that. The Stone is right there, around them and supporting them, and some creator...? Who is such a being to the dwarves?

And besides, we've seen some pretty strong evidence that the Stone is in fact a living entity of some sort.

Have we heard their general attitude on mages?

If Dagna goes to the Circle Tower -- a place she's absolutely fascinated by, along with magic itself -- then Orzammar opens an independent Circle free from the Chantry's grip, drawing in many apostates and other Circle Mages.

We've also had a few codexes in the past where they've been friendly towards Mages -- even working with Mages like in Amgarrak's history.

Plus, Dwarves don't blame Mages, magic, or sin on the creation of the Darkspawn given that they were the absolute first people to fight them and that the Darkspawn they fought were Genlocks first -- "creatures in our own likeness" -- and rose up from the ground -- again, Genlocks.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 juin 2012 - 08:30 .

[dragonflight288]

Not to mention the ancient Dwarven Empire was a very strong ally of Tevinter.

[TEWR]

True. And they traded with the Avvar barbarians -- who had free mages -- as well as sheltered the Arlathan Elves -- who also had free mages.

Of course, at that time Darkspawn weren't known in the world -- though they might've been in the world still. Just not known about -- so they had no reason to blame mages for anything. But afterwards, they seem to have never held any malice towards Mages.