223 réponses à ce sujet

[Ubergrog]

I know bioware won't actually -read- this thread, or if they do, odds are they won't give a damn.

Personally, I don't play infiltrator much these days, right now my favorite class is the Male Quarian Engineer. I used to play GI all the time because of the great risk/reward it provided.

Do you want to know why people play Infiltrators bioware? It's the one class that LACKS game crippling bugs and can actively turn away the huge amounts of unbalanced firepower you have placed into the game!

Lets begin with the enemies.

Right now on gold, a geth turret can kill ANYONE in a single burst fire if their shields are down. Using this as a BASE level of damage, every other mob in the game can do worse. If you currently revive and are anywhere close to any mob, you have just wasted a medigel due to the absurd level of damage or 100% chance of stagger that is forced on your character.  Did I mention that ALL sync-kill enemies are now bugged, kill you twice as fast, and CANNOT BE STUNNED?  All enemies now benefit from the stupid "shield gate" mechanic too, and no one has been able to give a good reason why the enemy gets shield gate and PC's dont.

Lets go class by class now. This is for GOLD, not the lower difficulties

Adepts: Adepts are fine if you have at least one more adept on the team. Fragile does not begin to describe them and the number of problems with powers not taking effect are well documented at this point.  It's certainly not the worst class, but it dies the moment enemy fire comes it's way.  Also, almost every enemy save the Reapers can sit there and hop/dodge every power you throw at them, and two of the most deadly units have power-negating abilities. Welcome to being useless. The Phoenix adept is one of my favorite classes, but only against Cerberus.

Soldiers: Huge targets, questionably useful powers, I suppose the big reason why people don't commonly play this is the lack of "shiny" powers and the feel that this class is mostly a "play if you don't know how to use the more complicated classes".  Some powers are useless (Carnage), some are cool but are put on a platform too slow and clumsy for effective use (ballstic blades), others are OK but since soldiers tend to take heavier weapon loadouts makes them ineffective.  Oh, and super-slow melee attacks look great in a promo video, but are terrible in the actual game. Has anyone explained why a Phantom can ignore a grenade?  Oh, sorry I couldn't help kill the banshee, I was too busy running ALL OVER THE MAP TRYING TO REPLENISH MY GRENADES.

Engineers: All of the problems of the Adepts made worse because several of their powers are bugged.  Cryo blast doesn't work, the most recent boost to combat drone did nothing to aid it's usefulness, and the QFE's turret is still useless because it dies if an enemy sneezes at it.  Currently the best engineer is the Male Quarian because one power ignores cooldown (arc grenades), and the other has no known bugs (Incinerate)

Sentinels: Too many powers, too few points.  Some should not even be there (like the vorcha), all of the issues of Adepts and Engineers combined into a single package. The Krogan is tough as a hand full of rusty nails though.

Vanguards: I am calling you out here, Bioware.  You lied to us on your 1.03 bugfix list.  The vanguard bug is still there, and that's why people don't play them. 

Infiltrator: So, we have a single power that does the following: Forces the enemy to break focus on you, increases damage output, and lets you capture objectives and revive teammates relatively safely.  On top of that, every race option has a killer choice of secondary powers (Proximity mine, Energy drain, sabotage, Hunter Mode, Tactical Scan, hell even incinerate is a great option).  The worst bug inflicting this unit is tactical cloaks forced focus break does not always work. 


So... Why are you planning on nerfing Tactical cloak? The problem is not the power, the problem is very simple... I will try and explain it to you.


YOUR GAME IS BUGGY, YOU REFUSE TO FIX IT, AND YOU MADE THE MISSIONS TOO HARD TO FIGHT WITHOUT AT LEAST ONE INFILTRATOR ON THE TEAM!

If you want people to play other classes, I suggest the following:

1. Fix the vanguard glitch, you lying jerks.
2. Remove Shield gate. It should never have been added in the first place.
3. Make headshots possible on boss-mobs again (permitting other weapons-heavy classes some value again)
4. Fix all of the glitched tech powers.
5. If you're going to have units with power-negating abilities, make sure the powers negated make sense (seriously, frag grenades?)
6. Fix sync kill units. Way to make them even more of a headache by making them stun-proof.
7. Make known weak powers more effective. Carnage is a great example of a useless power.
8. Stop making classes virtually identical to one another (No one has managed to convince me that the Vorcha Soldier and sentinel are different in any functional way)
9. Increase the effeciveness of other classes instead of making the ONE good class weaker.  
10. Increase grenade spawn rate at ammo crates.


Ta-da! ten ways to reduce infiltrator gameplay, and none of them involve hurting the class. 

[zeal.assassin]

Insulting them wont get things fix any fasters

[Ubergrog]

I would sooner take a stand and call them out on their lies then sit here quiet.

[AlienSpaceBats]

I gave up on Infiltrators last month, not because of nerfs though, it just got boring. I Kroguard everything, even gold - surprisingly easy. I would like to see your 10 points dealt with though, especially grenades - what's the point of upgrading the number of grenades to 6 or more if you can never have that number again in a match? Headshot damage really needs to return on the Primes and Atlases, not bothered about Banshees and Brutes.

[Morgax_Warrior]

True infiltrators will adapt no matter the "nerf", posers will move on the next class.

Modifié par Morgax_Warrior, 22 juin 2012 - 10:21 .

[Hook-n-Swoop]

Probably the most annoying aspect with playing with infiltrators is the accompanyig aggro dump of TC.

[Ubergrog]

Morgax_Warrior wrote...

True infiltrators will adapt no matter the "nerf", posers will move on the next class.

we play this game for fun, not to join a fraternity.

[Prawny]

Could've done without the insulting, but I agree 100%

[PoetryAvenger]

Cryo Blast isn't bugged. Rank 6a Incinerate (or 'b', whichever one claims to provide a damage boost to both chilled AND frozen targets) is.

[Core_Commander]

Ubergrog wrote...

All enemies now benefit from the stupid "shield gate" mechanic too, and no one has been able to give a good reason why the enemy gets shield gate and PC's dont.

Player characters DO get the shield gate.

Are you sure you're in the position to talk about game balance if you couldn't even figure that out? It comes into effect every time you're shot, are you even watching your screen?

Modifié par Core_Commander, 22 juin 2012 - 10:33 .

[Ubergrog]

Core_Commander wrote...

Ubergrog wrote...

All enemies now benefit from the stupid "shield gate" mechanic too, and no one has been able to give a good reason why the enemy gets shield gate and PC's dont.

Player characters DO get the shield gate.

Are you sure you're in the position to talk about game balance if you couldn't even figure that out? It comes into effect every time you're shot, are you even watching your screen?

It's hard to notice since when your shields go down, you usually are being mobbed by three other units, so your health vanishes quickly.

Also, if this is true, several units in the game can bypass PC shield gate, like Atlas rockets, phantom hand-thresher maws, and Ravager cannons.

[jahaa]

6 classes, dozens of characters and still 1/3 of the people play brobot or quarian Infiltrator. Don't you think something is wrong? However, i don't want to see the Infiltrator nerfed. I would prefer a general buff to all the classes. But sadly that is not going to happen.

[Core_Commander]

Ubergrog wrote...

It's hard to notice since when your shields go down, you usually are being mobbed by three other units, so your health vanishes quickly.

Also, if this is true, several units in the game can bypass PC shield gate, like Atlas rockets, phantom hand-thresher maws, and Ravager cannons.

May be something to do with how phantoms and ravagers fire in bursts. Just like your gun "bypasses" a shield gate if it fires in burst, and what really happens is that one bullet takes down the shield and the others chip away at health.

It's not the matter of "IF it's true", because it is.

Atlas rockets don't bypass the gate, they deplete your shield and that's it, even if you're a vorcha. Grenades bypass the shield gate, but so do the players'.

I suppose we can call the myth of "OP knows about balance" busted and move on. How can a thread about balance where basic gameplay facts are mistaken be taken seriously?

Modifié par Core_Commander, 22 juin 2012 - 10:47 .

[xtorma]

The game is full of bugs that have not been addressed. whether or not the guy knows about shield gate mechanics doesn't change that fact.

[Ubergrog]

I1 Trust wrote...

Infiltrators are used 19.2% of the time. The soldier is the most popular class.

Fagnan stated that in Gold (which is what all balance is focused on), 33% of players use infiltrator.

[Adhok42]

Didn't you hear? Gold is too easy and everybody wants it to be harder. Nerfing and bugging everything to hell is how they plan to increase the difficulty.

Alright, I'll flip the sarcasm switch off now.

You make several good points I hadn't even thought about. While I don't agree with you about the other five classes being completely useless, they do seem to be suffering a little thanks to those bugs/glitches/mechanics and the Infiltrator seems to be free of all that.

No I don't think the Infiltrator is OP and it never was. They have their role and they're good at it.

I am still of the belief that all the other classes could use a boost simply to make them more viable without changing too much of the enemy behaviors and knocking down the "OP" ones. This simply helps the case. Really lets ask ourselves, if the bugs for everything else were fixed would everyone still play Infiltrator? The Novaguard is just as "OP" when the bug isn't affecting them from what I've seen and plenty of classes have their uses besides being the point damage dealer.

[Core_Commander]

xtorma wrote...

The game is full of bugs that have not been addressed. whether or not the guy knows about shield gate mechanics doesn't change that fact.

Well, fixing bugs is important - that much is obvious. Still, it's likely that a different team is handling bugs than balancing, so it's not like the two are that much related, and complaints about "useless powers" with Carnage given as an example (what the heck...) and shield gating are still parts of the thread.

The low hanging fruit of low risk-high reward is still a much more plausible cause of infiltrators' (more specifically GI and MQI, I'm willing to bet) popularity on gold than bugs.

[sclera]

 
https://www.google.c...oMcndmAWQ2uH9Cg

[CC-Tron]

Ubergrog wrote...

Core_Commander wrote...

Ubergrog wrote...

All enemies now benefit from the stupid "shield gate" mechanic too, and no one has been able to give a good reason why the enemy gets shield gate and PC's dont.

Player characters DO get the shield gate.

Are you sure you're in the position to talk about game balance if you couldn't even figure that out? It comes into effect every time you're shot, are you even watching your screen?

It's hard to notice since when your shields go down, you usually are being mobbed by three other units, so your health vanishes quickly.

Also, if this is true, several units in the game can bypass PC shield gate, like Atlas rockets, phantom hand-thresher maws, and Ravager cannons.

Also cerberus turret fire.

[Core_Commander]

CC-Tron wrote...

Also cerberus turret fire.

Cerberus turret fire bypasses shield gate as much as hurricane fire bypasses the enemies'.



Okay okay, I'm outta here. Have fun.

Modifié par Core_Commander, 22 juin 2012 - 11:28 .

[JakobBloch]

xtorma wrote...

The game is full of bugs that have not been addressed. whether or not the guy knows about shield gate mechanics doesn't change that fact.

But it does call all his opinions and conclusions into question. This means we have to endure his abrasive and insulting manner longer than we would really like to. But lets take a look at his suggestions.

"1. Fix the vanguard glitch, you lying jerks."

Good point, but please can the insults. Insulting people is not "calling them out".

"2. Remove Shield gate. It should never have been added in the first place."

Shield gates are fine. The fact that you don't seem to understand the mechanic does not make it bad.

"3. Make headshots possible on boss-mobs again (permitting other weapons-heavy classes some value again)"

Hmm give some boss mobs weak spots but make them harder to get to than the head. Make people work for them. Put them on the back of them for example (Atlas has the engine there and the banshee has the blinking light thing). Perhaps make the weak spots do other things than just increase damage (like the flanges on the atlas). Hitting the lights on the banshees hard enough might shut off their biotics for a brief time. Hitting and destroying the antennae on the prime might make it or geths around it go berserk. These would be fun.

"4. Fix all of the glitched tech powers."

More like glitched evolutions but I see your point.

5. If you're going to have units with power-negating abilities, make sure the powers negated make sense (seriously, frag grenades?)

How does it not make sense. The Phantom is using and impenetrable biotic shield. Why would a grenade be able to pass? That being said grenades can hit her... you just have to get it behind her. The shield is directional like the guardians (granted it covers more of her body than the guardians shield)

"6. Fix sync kill units. Way to make them even more of a headache by making them stun-proof."

They are not stun proof. The lack of weak spots just makes it harder to get enough force or damge onto them.

"7. Make known weak powers more effective. Carnage is a great example of a useless power."

Agreed. Though I am unclear which powers are considered weak.

"8. Stop making classes virtually identical to one another (No one has managed to convince me that the Vorcha Soldier and sentinel are different in any functional way)"

Agreed. Though the Sentinel is significantly better than the soldier as the sentinel has grenades.

"9. Increase the effeciveness of other classes instead of making the ONE good class weaker."

The problem here is the amount of effort involved. Add to that the fact that (I assume we are talking infiltrator here) the infiltrator is simply overbroad in its abilities. The soldier should be the weapons master but the infiltrator is stronger with all weapons AND his signature power also increases the effectiveness of his powers making it ludicrously broad in its scope.

"10. Increase grenade spawn rate at ammo crates."

That is a trade-off. grenades don't trigger cool-down but is instead a scarce resource. If you can't live with that don't play grenade wielding classes.

right done. Most of his points are worth looking at but some are just whining. Nothing about it is worth the insults.

[PreGy]

Ubergrog wrote...

I1 Trust wrote...

Infiltrators are used 19.2% of the time. The soldier is the most popular class.

Fagnan stated that in Gold (which is what all balance is focused on), 33% of players use infiltrator.

Besides, that image is old.

[Torguemada]

Ubergrog wrote...
no one has been able to give a good reason why the enemy gets shield gate and PC's dont.

Pretty much no point in reading the rest of your wallpost when you get very basic game mechanics wrong*, you have no business talking about anykind of balance.
*Not only do the PC's have a shield gate, but also a critical health gate, so the bare minimum to kill a PC is 3 shots.

Also gold isn't in anyway what so ever impossible without an infiltrator like you claim.

JakobBloch wrote...
"10. Increase grenade spawn rate at ammo crates."

That
is a trade-off. grenades don't trigger cool-down but is instead a
scarce resource. If you can't live with that don't play grenade wielding
classes.

Man, come on, that was the one point he had that actually spot on.
The maps that spawn only one grenade per box are just idiotic and makes multiple grenade users frustrating as hell.

Modifié par Torguemada, 22 juin 2012 - 11:43 .

[kr3g]

Half of classes on gold almost redunant. At least when play with randoms in Unknown/Unkown
Shouldn't be a suprise that 30% on gold are infiltrators. Only they and adepts with engineers are viable on gold.