223 réponses à ce sujet

[landylan]

shadowkinz wrote...

What about people playing mostly infiltrators means it is op.. rogue/stealth classes are always popular

im not gonna say why it's OP, but bioware wants to inspire people to use other classes in order to promote the longevity of the game.

[Shampoohorn]

shadowkinz wrote...

What about people playing mostly infiltrators means it is op.. rogue/stealth classes are always popular

The percentage of people playing the class increases with each difficulty level. 

Modifié par Shampoohorn, 22 juin 2012 - 04:08 .

[LeandroBraz]

Kataigida wrote...

Ubergrog wrote...

Right now on gold, a geth turret can kill ANYONE in a single burst fire if their shields are down. Using this as a BASE level of damage, every other mob in the game can do worse. If you currently revive and are anywhere close to any mob, you have just wasted a medigel due to the absurd level of damage or 100% chance of stagger that is forced on your character.  Did I mention that ALL sync-kill enemies are now bugged, kill you twice as fast, and CANNOT BE STUNNED?  All enemies now benefit from the stupid "shield gate" mechanic too, and no one has been able to give a good reason why the enemy gets shield gate and PC's dont.

The Geth Turrets are not as powerful as you make them sound to be (unless you're playing a squishy player) though they can be a nuisence if they are thrown behind cover, but honestly they are very easy to take care of. I mean an overload or tact-scan can take it down.

You shouldn't be reviving on a mob anyway unless it's a last resort. And the 100% stagger is only true for the Geth, which SHOULD be fixed because that enemy faction is just a mess.

I am not sure where you are getting your information about boss enemies...but the only reason they may be buggy is if you have bad lag... And they can be stunned. Atlas can be stunned, banshee can be stunned, phantoms can definetly be stunned... Sure, they may not be stunned for long, but you can stun them.

Players DO have shield gate, it's one of the few things that keeps you alive on gold. The only reason you may not notice ever now and then is just because you are under so much continuous fire that the shield gate only affects the original shot that took down your shield.

Ubergrog wrote... 

Lets go class by class now. This is for GOLD, not the lower difficulties

Adepts: Adepts are fine if you have at least one more adept on the team. Fragile does not begin to describe them and the number of problems with powers not taking effect are well documented at this point.  It's certainly not the worst class, but it dies the moment enemy fire comes it's way.  Also, almost every enemy save the Reapers can sit there and hop/dodge every power you throw at them, and two of the most deadly units have power-negating abilities. Welcome to being useless. The Phoenix adept is one of my favorite classes, but only against Cerberus.

Soldiers: Huge targets, questionably useful powers, I suppose the big reason why people don't commonly play this is the lack of "shiny" powers and the feel that this class is mostly a "play if you don't know how to use the more complicated classes".  Some powers are useless (Carnage), some are cool but are put on a platform too slow and clumsy for effective use (ballstic blades), others are OK but since soldiers tend to take heavier weapon loadouts makes them ineffective.  Oh, and super-slow melee attacks look great in a promo video, but are terrible in the actual game. Has anyone explained why a Phantom can ignore a grenade?  Oh, sorry I couldn't help kill the banshee, I was too busy running ALL OVER THE MAP TRYING TO REPLENISH MY GRENADES.

Engineers: All of the problems of the Adepts made worse because several of their powers are bugged.  Cryo blast doesn't work, the most recent boost to combat drone did nothing to aid it's usefulness, and the QFE's turret is still useless because it dies if an enemy sneezes at it.  Currently the best engineer is the Male Quarian because one power ignores cooldown (arc grenades), and the other has no known bugs (Incinerate)

Sentinels: Too many powers, too few points.  Some should not even be there (like the vorcha), all of the issues of Adepts and Engineers combined into a single package. The Krogan is tough as a hand full of rusty nails though.

Vanguards: I am calling you out here, Bioware.  You lied to us on your 1.03 bugfix list.  The vanguard bug is still there, and that's why people don't play them. 

Infiltrator: So, we have a single power that does the following: Forces the enemy to break focus on you, increases damage output, and lets you capture objectives and revive teammates relatively safely.  On top of that, every race option has a killer choice of secondary powers (Proximity mine, Energy drain, sabotage, Hunter Mode, Tactical Scan, hell even incinerate is a great option).  The worst bug inflicting this unit is tactical cloaks forced focus break does not always work. 


So... Why are you planning on nerfing Tactical cloak? The problem is not the power, the problem is very simple... I will try and explain it to you.


YOUR GAME IS BUGGY, YOU REFUSE TO FIX IT, AND YOU MADE THE MISSIONS TOO HARD TO FIGHT WITHOUT AT LEAST ONE INFILTRATOR ON THE TEAM!

The game is not as buggy as you are trying to make it sound like... Adepts can 'not' be paired with other adepts and still be useful. Justicar's bubbles are nice if used right, Asari can use stasis to halt enemies. Just because an adept can't set off a BE doesn't mean it's useless.

Soldiers I agree could stand to have...anything done with them. They are probably one of the weaker classes, and they don't get a large enough damage boost to weapons to be considered 'soldiers.'

Engineers are meant to be a support-type class, easily taking down shields and armor for their allies, or providing distractions via drones or turrets. If any engineer can't place their drone in the right place it will easily get destroyed. Engineers are more of a situational class than the others, particularly with overload and energy drain. None of the powers are bugged besides the 6 evolution of incinerate that is SUPPOSED to deal 100%+ damage to chilled targets, which it doesn't.

Sentinels are meant to provide powers to either prime or set off combinations, while being the most effective class at staying alive with their defense buff or health regen.

You make it sound like it's easy to fix the vanguard bug...but honestly charge is the most unique power in the game, allowing someone to both teleport and increase their shields. Trying to fix a bug created by lag is challenging without re-writing certain codes to try and compensate for lag.


In the end, missions are NOT too hard to fight without an infiltrator. If anything I find them to be a little easier/more fun without an infiltrator because you have more powers being used to slow down/kill/crowd control, and it's not hard if a team ACTUALLY works together to do objectives. As it stands, the only reason people think infiltrators are required for objectives is two reasons...

1) People don't work as a team very often on gold. Particularly PUGs. People tend to run off on their own or not pay attention to spawn points, etc. A good team is the key to victory, not an infiltrator.

2) People assume that an infiltrator is required to do objectives. They think that the ONLY way for an objective to get done is if there is an infiltrator there cloaked and working on it. That's not the case, and this kind of mentality comes from the fact that tactical cloak recharges too fast and lasts too long.

While you tried to bring up some good points, most of those points are negated by people that know how to play their class (and avoid lag-issues) or by a team that knows what it is doing.

this.


 The biggest reason people think some classes are weak or broken, is exactly because they think of the class in a individual way like it would fight alone. It's not the case, you are part of a team, everyone have a different roll. It is like that even in the single, where a good mix between combat, biotic and tech is encouragerd in the squad.

 An example of a game where it's even more real, and almost inevitable: Team Fortress 2. A good team is a team that have every class doing their job.

[ProjectGemini07]

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...
Regarding the OP, Infiltrators aren't required for Gold.  They just trivialise it.

Trivialise might be slighting overstating the case.  I've had many a gold game go south on objective rounds because we didn't have an infiltrator.  As such, it seems to be standard operating procedure in a lot of gold lobbies to have at least one infiltrator.

So, I'd kind of regard 25% of gold players being this class as something of a normal baseline.  Having 33.6% of gold players rolling infiltrator doesn't really seem to me to be "overly large".

I guess my question back to the devs would be, what is the desired percentage of players playing infiltrator on gold?  Is it 1/6, reflecting parity among the classes?

The basic structure of the "cap the 4 objectives" rounds dictates infiltrators will always have more value than others.

[a ViciousFerret]

Ubergrog wrote...

I know bioware won't actually -read- this thread, or if they do, odds are they won't give a damn.

Personally, I don't play infiltrator much these days, right now my favorite class is the Male Quarian Engineer. I used to play GI all the time because of the great risk/reward it provided.

Do you want to know why people play Infiltrators bioware? It's the one class that LACKS game crippling bugs and can actively turn away the huge amounts of unbalanced firepower you have placed into the game!

It's hilarious because it looks like there actually is a huge glitch on all infiltrators.

The rank 6 sniper bonus seems to be a multiplier rather than an additive bonus, even though the developers designed it to be an additive bonus.

Check this post, and the whole thread in general: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/12683470/2#12684947

[CmnDwnWrkn]

ProjectGemini07 wrote...

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...
Regarding the OP, Infiltrators aren't required for Gold.  They just trivialise it.

Trivialise might be slighting overstating the case.  I've had many a gold game go south on objective rounds because we didn't have an infiltrator.  As such, it seems to be standard operating procedure in a lot of gold lobbies to have at least one infiltrator.

So, I'd kind of regard 25% of gold players being this class as something of a normal baseline.  Having 33.6% of gold players rolling infiltrator doesn't really seem to me to be "overly large".

I guess my question back to the devs would be, what is the desired percentage of players playing infiltrator on gold?  Is it 1/6, reflecting parity among the classes?

The basic structure of the "cap the 4 objectives" rounds dictates infiltrators will always have more value than others.

It IS overly large.  It means that each of the other classes is used, on average, a measly 13.3%.

[Vhira]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ubergrog wrote...


Fix the vanguard glitch, you lying jerks.
 

Definitely the kind of thing that will get a post noticed...for the wrong reason.

Time for a timeout.

HOLLAN HELLFIRE

(I just made that up, but feel free to use it, Derek.  You need a special power like Thomas' ABRAM SMASH.)

HOLLAN PUNCH is better imo.

[N7-RedFox]

Vhira wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

Ubergrog wrote...


Fix the vanguard glitch, you lying jerks.
 

Definitely the kind of thing that will get a post noticed...for the wrong reason.

Time for a timeout.

HOLLAN HELLFIRE

(I just made that up, but feel free to use it, Derek.  You need a special power like Thomas' ABRAM SMASH.)

HOLLAN PUNCH is better imo.

HOLLAN HAMMERSLAM

(If Abram is Hulk, Hollan can be Thor)

[Lee80]

Aside from some very rude wording, the original post had some very good points.

[Derek Hollan]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

ProjectGemini07 wrote...

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...
Regarding the OP, Infiltrators aren't required for Gold.  They just trivialise it.

Trivialise might be slighting overstating the case.  I've had many a gold game go south on objective rounds because we didn't have an infiltrator.  As such, it seems to be standard operating procedure in a lot of gold lobbies to have at least one infiltrator.

So, I'd kind of regard 25% of gold players being this class as something of a normal baseline.  Having 33.6% of gold players rolling infiltrator doesn't really seem to me to be "overly large".

I guess my question back to the devs would be, what is the desired percentage of players playing infiltrator on gold?  Is it 1/6, reflecting parity among the classes?

The basic structure of the "cap the 4 objectives" rounds dictates infiltrators will always have more value than others.

It IS overly large.  It means that each of the other classes is used, on average, a measly 13.3%.

You have, effectively, hit the nail on the head here.  Eric never takes balance issues lightly.  This sort of disparity tells us a lot.  It is not just that people like infiltrators.  If this were solely the case, then we should see a similar disparity on Silver and Bronze difficulty.  Alas, this is not the case as Eric points out that infiltrators make up 20.43% on Silver and 15.18% on Bronze.

Cheers!

[Thrillskr]

humes spork wrote...

You contradict yourself, here. In your first paragraph, you said a "lot" of players select infiltrator for the utility and usefulness. Yet, in your last paragraph you admit infiltrator attracts the horrible players.

I know You didnt call me out on it, but i'll just explain my thinking. A lot of players (IMO) select it for overall usefulness, that doesnt mean they can utilize it. Rest of Your i agree with, tho i doubt very much people will migrate to soldiers.
Maybe it's just me, but i've never used infiltrator for its capabilities. I used infiltrator since ME1 because i just like a stealthy invisible sniper dude/chick. I play as a stealthy assassin in pretty much every game (rogue in Dragon Age, Recon in BF3 and so on.), so for me it doesnt boil down to OH LOOK AT MA DPS.
And i believe, since i do it and its my reason, there must be enough people to enjoy that too.

[JGDD]

Derek Hollan wrote...

You have, effectively, hit the nail on the head here.  Eric never takes balance issues lightly.  This sort of disparity tells us a lot.  It is not just that people like infiltrators.  If this were solely the case, then we should see a similar disparity on Silver and Bronze difficulty.  Alas, this is not the case as Eric points out that infiltrators make up 20.43% on Silver and 15.18% on Bronze.

Cheers!

I'd like to see the numbers after any changes and if they still hold steady. You guys have a plan for that if it manifests itself?

[Creston918]

If people prefer playing one class over another, obviously that means that said class must be nerfed. It's not a matter of making the other classes more fun to play, no, just nerf that one class, then watch and see what next class starts being the most played, and nerf that.

It's the Blizzard way of "balancing."

And obviously, Blizzard is truly the company everyone should try to emulate.

[NewStrings]

Derek Hollan wrote...

You have, effectively, hit the nail on the head here.  Eric never takes balance issues lightly.  This sort of disparity tells us a lot.  It is not just that people like infiltrators.  If this were solely the case, then we should see a similar disparity on Silver and Bronze difficulty.  Alas, this is not the case as Eric points out that infiltrators make up 20.43% on Silver and 15.18% on Bronze.

Cheers!

That makes sense to me. I like infiltrators best so I play Infiltrator on gold when I actually want to win. On weeknights I occasionally play Infiltrator in silver because players on week nights are awful and can't do gold. Otherwise I never play infiltrator in bronze or silver because brozne and silver are for experimenting with different playing styles and classes. If I had to rate how often I used infiltrator I'd say about 70% on gold, about 20% on silver and about 10% on bronze.

[Derek Hollan]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Derek Hollan wrote...

You have, effectively, hit the nail on the head here.  Eric never takes balance issues lightly.  This sort of disparity tells us a lot.  It is not just that people like infiltrators.  If this were solely the case, then we should see a similar disparity on Silver and Bronze difficulty.  Alas, this is not the case as Eric points out that infiltrators make up 20.43% on Silver and 15.18% on Bronze.

Cheers!

I'd like to see the numbers after any changes and if they still hold steady. You guys have a plan for that if it manifests itself?

There is no doubt we will be monitoring it afterwards.  Such is the nature of balancing.  It will be at Eric's discretion if he posts any figures though.

Modifié par Derek Hollan, 22 juin 2012 - 04:45 .

[Feauce]

Creston918 wrote...

If people prefer playing one class over another, obviously that means that said class must be nerfed. It's not a matter of making the other classes more fun to play, no, just nerf that one class, then watch and see what next class starts being the most played, and nerf that.

It's the Blizzard way of "balancing."

And obviously, Blizzard is truly the company everyone should try to emulate.

Creston wins the "I Wish You Weren't So Right" award.

[Fisterbear]

Morgax_Warrior wrote...

True infiltrators will adapt no matter the "nerf", posers will move on the next class.

Thankfully it won't be soldiers they move onto. My preferred class doesn't have an easy mode button for them.

[Wordlywisewiz]

Could we please see a breakdown of numbers of classes and characters across the 3 difficulty and also what's the precentage of infiltrators on gold in public compared to those in private?

[Fisterbear]

I1 Trust wrote...

Infiltrators are used 19.2% of the time. The soldier is the most popular class.

So how many of you missed that the "33% infiltrators" stat was for gold?

The numbers aren't that big on bronze and silver. If they were, it would be chalked up to class preference.

No, this is a specific spike for a particular difficulty, indicating that the other classes are not as viable and balance needs to be achieved.

How that balance will be achieved has only been guessed at as being nerfs by the community.

If the other classes were buffed, the "gold is too easy" posts would increase exponentially, and they'd be justified.

Modifié par Fisterbear, 22 juin 2012 - 05:02 .

[mrwizeguy]

Derek Hollan wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

ProjectGemini07 wrote...

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...
Regarding the OP, Infiltrators aren't required for Gold.  They just trivialise it.

Trivialise might be slighting overstating the case.  I've had many a gold game go south on objective rounds because we didn't have an infiltrator.  As such, it seems to be standard operating procedure in a lot of gold lobbies to have at least one infiltrator.

So, I'd kind of regard 25% of gold players being this class as something of a normal baseline.  Having 33.6% of gold players rolling infiltrator doesn't really seem to me to be "overly large".

I guess my question back to the devs would be, what is the desired percentage of players playing infiltrator on gold?  Is it 1/6, reflecting parity among the classes?

The basic structure of the "cap the 4 objectives" rounds dictates infiltrators will always have more value than others.

It IS overly large.  It means that each of the other classes is used, on average, a measly 13.3%.

You have, effectively, hit the nail on the head here.  Eric never takes balance issues lightly.  This sort of disparity tells us a lot.  It is not just that people like infiltrators.  If this were solely the case, then we should see a similar disparity on Silver and Bronze difficulty.  Alas, this is not the case as Eric points out that infiltrators make up 20.43% on Silver and 15.18% on Bronze.

Cheers!

On the other hand i believe something else . I think those numbers are misleading the public .
So , mr Derek , the numbers i would really be intrested in putting out for us in public is how many 1 time use consumables each class averages per game .. for example i believe 99% of drell users add a "cyclonic modulator" , add to that a pistol amp and thats total of 2 , add 1 med gel 1 rocket 1ops and a thermal clip = 6 consumables per match right? Thats what u devs look in the stats and not how many ppl use each class. 
This is what balance is , keeping characters and weapons "consumable dependant" , isnt it?
I believe u get my point . 

[InfamousResult]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Wow, I love how the BioWare rep ignored the majority of the post...

And banned the guy.

I would imagine him seeing the insult was a good indicator of them reading the thread. It wasn't at the top- it wasn't at the bottom- it was in the post, along with a lot of abrasive attitude towards the Staff in general. They don't have to say "hey guys here's a stamp that says WE READ YOUR POST".

And people who break rules get banned.

[ckriley]

Derek Hollan wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

ProjectGemini07 wrote...

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...
Regarding the OP, Infiltrators aren't required for Gold.  They just trivialise it.

Trivialise might be slighting overstating the case.  I've had many a gold game go south on objective rounds because we didn't have an infiltrator.  As such, it seems to be standard operating procedure in a lot of gold lobbies to have at least one infiltrator.

So, I'd kind of regard 25% of gold players being this class as something of a normal baseline.  Having 33.6% of gold players rolling infiltrator doesn't really seem to me to be "overly large".

I guess my question back to the devs would be, what is the desired percentage of players playing infiltrator on gold?  Is it 1/6, reflecting parity among the classes?

The basic structure of the "cap the 4 objectives" rounds dictates infiltrators will always have more value than others.

It IS overly large.  It means that each of the other classes is used, on average, a measly 13.3%.

You have, effectively, hit the nail on the head here.  Eric never takes balance issues lightly.  This sort of disparity tells us a lot.  It is not just that people like infiltrators.  If this were solely the case, then we should see a similar disparity on Silver and Bronze difficulty.  Alas, this is not the case as Eric points out that infiltrators make up 20.43% on Silver and 15.18% on Bronze.

Cheers!

I guess what my question to you and the devs would be, then, is WHY do you think Infiltrators are used so much?  Aside from the insults, the OP did raise some legitimate issues.  I would think you would focus on balancing enemy units first and not the classes.  There are in fact, many bugs that only the Infiltrator can overcome.  Particularly with the Geth.

[Linither]

Infiltrators are extremely useful to have in any party, part of the reason for that is DPS but another large part is that the infiltrator has a huge advantage to the deactivate objectives, and to reviving anyone more than arms length from cover, If i join a pug and don't see an infil, I'll play one, if i join a pug and do see an infil I'll say why oh why hasn't bioware given me some indication of whether he knows what he's doing or not, and then i'll still play an infil for the first game, if things go we'll I'll switch for the next one. Following my reasoning all lobbies should have at least one infill (25%) and some will have more. I think one good way to increase the use of other classes would be if reviving people and deactivating objectives gave a temporary DR, maybe 30% for revives and 50% for the objectives, that way you wouldn't have to be invisible/ have a great team comprised of people who know what their doing, to get things done