223 réponses à ce sujet

[Rokayt]

I may be totally interrupting the current conversation, but I would like to congratulate Bioware on clearing up all the misconceptions that people are having here in this thread.

[capn233]

I somewhat agree with DragoGoldenwing.

As far as the statistics go that Bioware collects, can they break the game down between public and private matchs? It would be interesting to know how the percentages work out. I feel like a big reason that infiltrator occurs so frequently in PUGs is simply the fact that it plays near max potential without any cooperation, which you are unlikely to get in PUG. Essentially none of the others work nearly as well by themselves. Even if they can deal a whole lot of damage (like with Cluster Grenades or what have you), it is indeed more difficult to run objectives with a "visible" class. Teamwork can more than make up for this disadvantage, but you can't guarantee that in a PUG, hence go with the safe choice.

Personally I think a small adjustment to the damage bonuses from cloak is overdue. Manipulating duration probably isn't a great idea, but a tweak to cooldown might also be warranted. Note I use terms such as "small adjustment" and "tweak" not "cut damage bonus in half" or "increase base cooldown to 10s."

[Siran]

Derek Hollan wrote...

You have, effectively, hit the nail on the head here.  Eric never takes balance issues lightly.  This sort of disparity tells us a lot.  It is not just that people like infiltrators.  If this were solely the case, then we should see a similar disparity on Silver and Bronze difficulty.  Alas, this is not the case as Eric points out that infiltrators make up 20.43% on Silver and 15.18% on Bronze.

Cheers!

But the point really is, on gold and silver you don't need an infiltrator as much as on gold, where the other 3 have their hands full dealing with the enemies during objectives. On Bronze / Siler you can easily defend someone else hacking an objective. On gold this simple is not a possibility, when there are 2 Banshees closing in on the one disarming an objective with 2 brutes and ravagers in their wake. You can distract all you want, one of these will always attack the one disarming the objective if its not the infiltrator.

The Infiltrator is just one of the most versatile classes in the game, that's a fact. Like the medic in many other shooters. Every team is better of having one. So, nerfing the ability that gives them that versatility is imho the wrong step. I agree, that the added damage bonuses might be taken into consideration, as they make them not only versatile but stronger than many classes. I don't have a perfect solution at hand so I don't envy Eric with his upcoming balance change. Maybe the sniper damage evolution... But to nerf the TC per se, would be too much, the visibility has already been nerfed over the last few weeks from what I could experience.

[FirstBlood XL]

Here's the simple reality that BW isn't seeing:

On Gold, the DEVICE DISABLE/ENABLE OBJECTIVES dictate that EACH team have at least ONE INFILTRATOR.  Not because the weapons/powers are OP.  You NEED the TC ability in order to cap those objectives. Get this kind of objective in any given Gold match without an Infiltrator and you're good as dead, baring lucky spawn points for the devices/enemies.

THAT is why people play them slightly more then average.  Every team is 4 players, correct? Having one Infiltrator per team is 25%.  So when the ratio is a 'whopping' 33%, I don't see much to fret about... it's only slightly more then absolutely needed, based on the DEVICE OBJECTIVES that BW created, which very obviously fit the Infiltrator's TC power.  No other objectives beg for a certain character class.  This is the main reason you have a disparity.

Case in point:

I join a random public game on gold as an Asari Adept.  I see that nobody in the lobby is an Infiltrator.  I say to myself "Oh crap, we'll never be able to cap the device objectives if we get them" so I switch my character to an INF so I can help my team with the objectives.   

BW wants people to play Infiltrators less... try getting rid of the device objectives.  I'll bet dollars to donuts the INF vs other characters ratio has a solid drop.

Modifié par FirstBlood XL, 22 juin 2012 - 08:10 .

[sliverofamoon]

Derek Hollan wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

ProjectGemini07 wrote...

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...
Regarding the OP, Infiltrators aren't required for Gold.  They just trivialise it.

Trivialise might be slighting overstating the case.  I've had many a gold game go south on objective rounds because we didn't have an infiltrator.  As such, it seems to be standard operating procedure in a lot of gold lobbies to have at least one infiltrator.

So, I'd kind of regard 25% of gold players being this class as something of a normal baseline.  Having 33.6% of gold players rolling infiltrator doesn't really seem to me to be "overly large".

I guess my question back to the devs would be, what is the desired percentage of players playing infiltrator on gold?  Is it 1/6, reflecting parity among the classes?

The basic structure of the "cap the 4 objectives" rounds dictates infiltrators will always have more value than others.

It IS overly large.  It means that each of the other classes is used, on average, a measly 13.3%.

You have, effectively, hit the nail on the head here.  Eric never takes balance issues lightly.  This sort of disparity tells us a lot.  It is not just that people like infiltrators.  If this were solely the case, then we should see a similar disparity on Silver and Bronze difficulty.  Alas, this is not the case as Eric points out that infiltrators make up 20.43% on Silver and 15.18% on Bronze.

Cheers!

I honestly believe that the only way to change the numbers to make every class equally used on gold, is if you nerf the Infiltrator to the point of utter uselessness, or take away the class entirely. I could go into my response more, but I"m at work and have to help customers. However, I would bet money on it, and I am not a betting person. Hell, if I am wrong, I'd even spend RL money on a Premium Character Pack.

[greggers1]

Since when did 30%+ become 100%? If it were overpowered everyone would be doing it, or at least a higher percentage.

Anyways those numbers are going to be weird because I feel like for squad to have a good balance every player must be different, and the infiltrator fills a particular role. When I'm in a gold lobby and see that there isn't an infiltrator I switch to it. Who's going to be better at running through fire to revive someone? Who's going to be great at capturing the 4 points?

I love the infiltrator because it allows me to be a better TEAM player. Everyone seems to forget that when they get on the forums and start whining. Who cares if someone got a higher "score", even though it really doesn't matter because stats aren't kept and everyone shares experience. Anyone worried about score is not caring about the team, you're just interested in yourself, and the moment that someone does better than you it's taken as some personal offense, "I am awesome how did that guy do better? He must be cheating/overpowered". By weakening a class that you don't like, you end up hurting yourself by inhibiting the effectiveness of those around you.

This whole "TC is too overpowered" thing only came up recently. How recently? Around when the Krysae came out. That thing in the hands of even the most mentally handicapped monkey can get 100K without even trying, and when you boost it's damage by exploiting TC it makes it look as if TC is the problem when really it's the freaking scoped grenade launcher doing the damage.

[Gockey]

FirstBlood XL wrote...

Here's the simple reality that BW isn't seeing:

On Gold, the DEVICE DISABLE/ENABLE OBJECTIVES dictate that EACH team have at least ONE INFILTRATOR.  Not because the weapons/powers are OP.  You NEED the TC ability in order to cap those objectives. Get this kind of objective in any given Gold match without an Infiltrator and you're good as dead, baring lucky spawn points for the devices/enemies.

THAT is why people play them slightly more then average.  Every team is 4 players, correct? Having one Infiltrator per team is 25%.  So when the ratio is a 'whopping' 33%, I don't see much to fret about... it's only slightly more then absolutely needed, based on the DEVICE OBJECTIVES that BW created, which very obviously fit the Infiltrator's TC power.  No other objectives beg for a certain character class.  This is the main reason you have a disparity.

Case in point:

I join a random public game on gold as an Asari Adept.  I see that nobody in the lobby is an Infiltrator.  I say to myself "Oh crap, we'll never be able to cap the device objectives if we get them" so I switch my character to an INF so I can help my team with the objectives.   

BW wants people to play Infiltrators less... try getting rid of the device objectives.  I'll bet dollars to donuts the INF vs other characters ratio has a solid drop.

Except your wrong.

Trying to pass your opinion off as 'reality' doesn't make it correct.  The truth is hundreds of teams each day mange to make it through all the gold objectives, (Kill-X, Hacks, Pizza Runs, and yes deactivations) without ever seeing an infiltrator.  If your too bad, or playing with teammates that are too bad to complete them without an infiltrator, then you need to drop back down to silver.

Drell Adepts are fantastic spawn clears, and can easily take a node, same for any grenade class really.  Likewise a engineer can drop a turret/decoy/drone to grab the needed 10 seconds as they approach the node to draw aggro from mobs already there if neccesary.  

Bottom line is: what you said is fallacy.  Infiltrators of course make grabbing nodes easier.  News flash though they aren't removing tac cloak.  They will stll be able to perform the same function after the nerf. They'll just be doing less damage and forced to do what they were supposed to do.

[landylan]

everyone here basically presents the same reasons to not nerf the infiltrator...and some of their reasons don't make sense. i have read some pretty silly things today...."infiltrators are necessary for PUGs because my team sucks, and i need it to kill everything cuz it does that bestest." "we need them for the four point objectives and to revive people!!!!" that's a fbwgg strategy so your team can camp while someone does the objectives. honestly cloak isnt that big of a help for reviving. people think it's an awesome idea to revive you next to a phantom....if there isnt enemies around your teammate then you dont need cloak and it's safe to revive. besides, the cloak part has never been the overpowered part. it's been the damage. people act like the only strong part about it is snipers...it gets double flippin damage and can use powers in cloak....

[sliverofamoon]

greggers1 wrote...

Since when did 30%+ become 100%? If it were overpowered everyone would be doing it, or at least a higher percentage.

Anyways those numbers are going to be weird because I feel like for squad to have a good balance every player must be different, and the infiltrator fills a particular role. When I'm in a gold lobby and see that there isn't an infiltrator I switch to it. Who's going to be better at running through fire to revive someone? Who's going to be great at capturing the 4 points?

I love the infiltrator because it allows me to be a better TEAM player. Everyone seems to forget that when they get on the forums and start whining. Who cares if someone got a higher "score", even though it really doesn't matter because stats aren't kept and everyone shares experience. Anyone worried about score is not caring about the team, you're just interested in yourself, and the moment that someone does better than you it's taken as some personal offense, "I am awesome how did that guy do better? He must be cheating/overpowered". By weakening a class that you don't like, you end up hurting yourself by inhibiting the effectiveness of those around you.

This whole "TC is too overpowered" thing only came up recently. How recently? Around when the Krysae came out. That thing in the hands of even the most mentally handicapped monkey can get 100K without even trying, and when you boost it's damage by exploiting TC it makes it look as if TC is the problem when really it's the freaking scoped grenade launcher doing the damage.

Exactly! I wonder what the numbers on Gold would be if there were teams of 6 instead of 4. I bet the disparity would be less apparent over-all. I also agree that most of the cries for nerfing came AFTER the Krysae was added, or at least they became more constant, and loud. Personally, I don't believe an Infiltrator is a must have if you are working with a team you know, and each member of that team is a competent player. PUGS discount this

[Xaijin]

I1 Trust wrote...

Infiltrators are used 19.2% of the time. The soldier is the most popular class.

That was before the invasion of the Video Guys, ie uncreative players who only make other people's cut copy paste builds.

[Xaijin]

sliverofamoon wrote...

greggers1 wrote...

Since when did 30%+ become 100%? If it were overpowered everyone would be doing it, or at least a higher percentage.

Anyways those numbers are going to be weird because I feel like for squad to have a good balance every player must be different, and the infiltrator fills a particular role. When I'm in a gold lobby and see that there isn't an infiltrator I switch to it. Who's going to be better at running through fire to revive someone? Who's going to be great at capturing the 4 points?

I love the infiltrator because it allows me to be a better TEAM player. Everyone seems to forget that when they get on the forums and start whining. Who cares if someone got a higher "score", even though it really doesn't matter because stats aren't kept and everyone shares experience. Anyone worried about score is not caring about the team, you're just interested in yourself, and the moment that someone does better than you it's taken as some personal offense, "I am awesome how did that guy do better? He must be cheating/overpowered". By weakening a class that you don't like, you end up hurting yourself by inhibiting the effectiveness of those around you.

This whole "TC is too overpowered" thing only came up recently. How recently? Around when the Krysae came out. That thing in the hands of even the most mentally handicapped monkey can get 100K without even trying, and when you boost it's damage by exploiting TC it makes it look as if TC is the problem when really it's the freaking scoped grenade launcher doing the damage.

Exactly! I wonder what the numbers on Gold would be if there were teams of 6 instead of 4. I bet the disparity would be less apparent over-all. I also agree that most of the cries for nerfing came AFTER the Krysae was added, or at least they became more constant, and loud. Personally, I don't believe an Infiltrator is a must have if you are working with a team you know, and each member of that team is a competent player. PUGS discount this

I've been saying they're ridiculously strong since launch. It was never an issue of bandwagoning, it was an issue of application.

Modifié par Xaijin, 22 juin 2012 - 08:31 .

[Xaijin]

FirstBlood XL wrote...

Here's the simple reality that BW isn't seeing:

On Gold, the DEVICE DISABLE/ENABLE OBJECTIVES dictate that EACH team have at least ONE INFILTRATOR.  Not because the weapons/powers are OP.  You NEED the TC ability in order to cap those objectives. Get this kind of objective in any given Gold match without an Infiltrator and you're good as dead, baring lucky spawn points for the devices/enemies.

THAT is why people play them slightly more then average.  Every team is 4 players, correct? Having one Infiltrator per team is 25%.  So when the ratio is a 'whopping' 33%, I don't see much to fret about... it's only slightly more then absolutely needed, based on the DEVICE OBJECTIVES that BW created, which very obviously fit the Infiltrator's TC power.  No other objectives beg for a certain character class.  This is the main reason you have a disparity.

Case in point:

I join a random public game on gold as an Asari Adept.  I see that nobody in the lobby is an Infiltrator.  I say to myself "Oh crap, we'll never be able to cap the device objectives if we get them" so I switch my character to an INF so I can help my team with the objectives.   

BW wants people to play Infiltrators less... try getting rid of the device objectives.  I'll bet dollars to donuts the INF vs other characters ratio has a solid drop.

Incorrect. These objectives are quite doable with a good team with any class and proper back up. Cloak doesn't last for the total duration for a reason.

Modifié par Xaijin, 22 juin 2012 - 09:02 .

[greghorvath]

Killahead wrote...

Brenon Holmes wrote...

greghorvath wrote...
*snip*

Good to hear it from the horse's mouth. Have full confidence that you guys will sort it out and small "problematic elements" won't stop me from continuing playing the game until you do.

I used to have full confidence in BioWare as well. Then (in a not at all comprehensive list):

• they made the ending debacle. (For me the endings were fine. The way the outrage was handled was a bit... off...)
• they introduced an MP that was so good, people forgave it the hundreds of bugs. but the bugs were there. Most of them still are.
• they forgot to add real content to the MP. The content they gave to the MP leads very quickly to grinding
• they built an unlock system around an unbalanceable concept of nearly infinite variables, and under the pretence of "balancing" they are actually introducing ceaseless imbalance
• they introduced a microtransaction system that is clearly a ripoff
• they said they were satisfied with the system and then introduced new packs to silence the murmur two days later. (It did not achieve its purpose, btw)
• they introduced a matchmaking system so utterly senseless (based on a completely useless and pointless rank system), it actually made me wonder if any of the people involved actually bothered to play their own game
• they introduced weapons and characters so evidently OP that it questioned whether there had been any kind of testing prior to the release
• they released a patch that was supposed to fix issues known from the launch. it did not work
• they started banning hordes of people, many of them for using bugs they are unable to fix
• I used to be happy for the "free content" but lately I just feel its given only to have an argument to show they care. i would gladly pay (as I have in the past) for content that is worth paying money for.

I used to have full confidence...

Modifié par greghorvath, 22 juin 2012 - 08:40 .

[Immortal Strife]

I just want be a ble to use a Novaguard in Pugs when I'm not host. I'm positive I'm not alone in thinking the vanguard glitch increases the infiltrator usage rate.

[brian_breed]

I'm sorry but this post should be sticky'ed.

[a ViciousFerret]

FirstBlood XL wrote...

Here's the simple reality that BW isn't seeing:

On Gold, the DEVICE DISABLE/ENABLE OBJECTIVES dictate that EACH team have at least ONE INFILTRATOR.  Not because the weapons/powers are OP.  You NEED the TC ability in order to cap those objectives. Get this kind of objective in any given Gold match without an Infiltrator and you're good as dead, baring lucky spawn points for the devices/enemies.

THAT is why people play them slightly more then average.  Every team is 4 players, correct? Having one Infiltrator per team is 25%.  So when the ratio is a 'whopping' 33%, I don't see much to fret about... it's only slightly more then absolutely needed, based on the DEVICE OBJECTIVES that BW created, which very obviously fit the Infiltrator's TC power.  No other objectives beg for a certain character class.  This is the main reason you have a disparity.

Case in point:

I join a random public game on gold as an Asari Adept.  I see that nobody in the lobby is an Infiltrator.  I say to myself "Oh crap, we'll never be able to cap the device objectives if we get them" so I switch my character to an INF so I can help my team with the objectives.   

BW wants people to play Infiltrators less... try getting rid of the device objectives.  I'll bet dollars to donuts the INF vs other characters ratio has a solid drop.

I didn't know capping the objectives with a non-Infiltrator class wasn't allowed.

Seriously get over yourself. I and hundreds, probably thousands, cap the devices each game with a non-infiltrator class.

[greghorvath]

greghorvath wrote...

4. 15.18% on bronze. I suppose you have considered the fact that vanguards (who stick to lower difficulties because of the infamous glitch), adepts, sentinels and soldiers clear maps in a matter of seconds. Infiltrator sucks on bronze, because by the time they take aim, AoE powers took care of the wave. Thats why people don't play it there.

Feels silly quoting myself, but thinking more about it, Infiltrators should actually be buffed for Bronze if BW wants more of them there...

Modifié par greghorvath, 22 juin 2012 - 08:49 .

[brian_breed]

someN7orother wrote...

paincanbefun wrote...
hm.. i'm  actually not sure if i think this was cool either.

OP was being a jerk himself...but he was also essentially correct, just rude.

i realize that it's against the forum rules, but censoring accurate criticism makes me uncomfortable, even if it is expressed rudely.

Only he wasn't "essentially correct", by any stretch of the imagination. He displayed a glaring inability to grasp an essential game mechanic, and is either exaggerating or flat out wrong in most of his other points. The OP is little more than a rant.

As someone else said before, he has no business talking game balance, nor playing gold outside of FBWG either. Devs don't have to acknowledge or respond to nonsense, but they DO have to enforce their board guidelines.

Check out the "Balance ALL the things!" thread for an example of how to conduct a reasoned, polite and productive discussion on gameplay balance.

Selective quoting is selective. Pain's point was that Vanguards are still bugged and you've taken that out of context as an approval of every point.

[DragoGoldenwing]

Xaijin wrote...

FirstBlood XL wrote...

Here's the simple reality that BW isn't seeing:

On Gold, the DEVICE DISABLE/ENABLE OBJECTIVES dictate that EACH team have at least ONE INFILTRATOR.  Not because the weapons/powers are OP.  You NEED the TC ability in order to cap those objectives. Get this kind of objective in any given Gold match without an Infiltrator and you're good as dead, baring lucky spawn points for the devices/enemies.

THAT is why people play them slightly more then average.  Every team is 4 players, correct? Having one Infiltrator per team is 25%.  So when the ratio is a 'whopping' 33%, I don't see much to fret about... it's only slightly more then absolutely needed, based on the DEVICE OBJECTIVES that BW created, which very obviously fit the Infiltrator's TC power.  No other objectives beg for a certain character class.  This is the main reason you have a disparity.

Case in point:

I join a random public game on gold as an Asari Adept.  I see that nobody in the lobby is an Infiltrator.  I say to myself "Oh crap, we'll never be able to cap the device objectives if we get them" so I switch my character to an INF so I can help my team with the objectives.   

BW wants people to play Infiltrators less... try getting rid of the device objectives.  I'll bet dollars to donuts the INF vs other characters ratio has a solid drop.

Incorrect. These objectives are quite doable with a good team with any class and proper back up. Cloack doesn't last for the total duration for a reason.

Good team=/=What you'll find on PUGs.  A lot of people consider Infiltrators to be like the random-group buffs in WoW's instances: A crutch that can help mediocre groups pull off a success where normally they'd fail.
And they're having the same problem as the random-group buffs in WoW's instances: The good groups are taking advantage of it to excel.

Not my opinion, but it is a commonly held opinion from what I've seen on this forum.

My opinion is that Infiltrators are uniquely qualified to be the objective tenders.  Cloak means they'll only have to take a second or two of fire if that, and they're some of the best at assassination objectives.  Pizza delivery is probably the only objective that other classes are more qualified for than a half-decent Infiltrator, with the understanding that hack objectives are a gray area for every class.
Personally I feel like they could have had more unique opportunity to give us reasons to play varied classes by giving passive bonuses for objectives different classes.
Engineers could have boosted hack speed while in the hack circle.
Infiltrators could have a slight damage bonus in assassinations.
Sentinel could provide damage reduction while in the hack circle.
Soldiers could provide a weapon damage boost while in the hack circle.
Vanguards could have improved disable speed.
Adepts could provide a power damage boost while in the hack circle.

*Shrugs*  Just my opinion though, it seems like it might lead to more variation as people try to work it out to maximize credit gain.

[landylan]

greghorvath wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

4. 15.18% on bronze. I suppose you have considered the fact that vanguards (who stick to lower difficulties because of the infamous glitch), adepts, sentinels and soldiers clear maps in a matter of seconds. Infiltrator sucks on bronze, because by the time they take aim, AoE powers took care of the wave. Thats why people don't play it there.

Feels silly quoting myself, but thinking more about it, Infiltrators should actually be buffed for Bronze if BW wants more of them there...

your rabling are confusing me...im not sure i see the point in things you say. 15.18% is nearly the ideal number for even use of classes

TRIPLE POST.....IT SAID IT DIDNT GO THROUGH.....

Modifié par landylan, 22 juin 2012 - 09:01 .

[landylan]

landylan wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

4. 15.18% on bronze. I suppose you have considered the fact that vanguards (who stick to lower difficulties because of the infamous glitch), adepts, sentinels and soldiers clear maps in a matter of seconds. Infiltrator sucks on bronze, because by the time they take aim, AoE powers took care of the wave. Thats why people don't play it there.

Feels silly quoting myself, but thinking more about it, Infiltrators should actually be buffed for Bronze if BW wants more of them there...

your ramblings are confusing me...im not sure i see the point in things you say. 15.18% is nearly the ideal number for even use of classes

[landylan]

greghorvath wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

4. 15.18% on bronze. I suppose you have considered the fact that vanguards (who stick to lower difficulties because of the infamous glitch), adepts, sentinels and soldiers clear maps in a matter of seconds. Infiltrator sucks on bronze, because by the time they take aim, AoE powers took care of the wave. Thats why people don't play it there.

Feels silly quoting myself, but thinking more about it, Infiltrators should actually be buffed for Bronze if BW wants more of them there...

your ramblings are confusing me...im not sure i see the point in things you say. 15.18% is nearly the ideal number for even use of classes

[Feauce]

Derek Hollan wrote...

This by no stretch of the imagination means we automatically assume the worse and begin brandishing the nerf bats.  The points raised are certainly good points and a great deal of factors are reviewed before any decision is made one way or the other.

It is very reassuring to know you're not too quick to swing the nerf bats. Unless it's around the offices; I think my fellow players would be okay with that one.

I will admit, I've been rather skeptical lately regarding BioWare, particularly given certain decisions that appear (from a customer's perspective) to come from the 7th Layer of the EAbyss. The Online Pass requirement being the first to come off the top of my head.

[Radford]

Just popping my head in this thread because it was tagged with a Bioware official reply.

Just wanted to say that its very nice to see so many official replies on posts like these, I know many companies (like Blizzard Activision) who has something to learn from you guys when it comes to communicating with your customers.

Kudos!

[Feauce]

Radford wrote...

Just popping my head in this thread because it was tagged with a Bioware official reply.

Just wanted to say that its very nice to see so many official replies on posts like these, I know many companies (like Blizzard Activision) who has something to learn from you guys when it comes to communicating with your customers.

Kudos!

Like that thread about how Blizzard's password authentication is case-insensitive, yeah? Really grand example of a caring company representative.