223 réponses à ce sujet

[Cundu_Ertur]

Derek Hollan wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

ProjectGemini07 wrote...

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...
Regarding the OP, Infiltrators aren't required for Gold.  They just trivialise it.

Trivialise might be slighting overstating the case.  I've had many a gold game go south on objective rounds because we didn't have an infiltrator.  As such, it seems to be standard operating procedure in a lot of gold lobbies to have at least one infiltrator.

So, I'd kind of regard 25% of gold players being this class as something of a normal baseline.  Having 33.6% of gold players rolling infiltrator doesn't really seem to me to be "overly large".

I guess my question back to the devs would be, what is the desired percentage of players playing infiltrator on gold?  Is it 1/6, reflecting parity among the classes?

The basic structure of the "cap the 4 objectives" rounds dictates infiltrators will always have more value than others.

It IS overly large.  It means that each of the other classes is used, on average, a measly 13.3%.

You have, effectively, hit the nail on the head here.  Eric never takes balance issues lightly.  This sort of disparity tells us a lot.  It is not just that people like infiltrators.  If this were solely the case, then we should see a similar disparity on Silver and Bronze difficulty.  Alas, this is not the case as Eric points out that infiltrators make up 20.43% on Silver and 15.18% on Bronze.

Cheers!

On Gold Vanguards are used just a tiny bit more than 0% becuase it's the most bugged class. Also, in Gold about the single most stupid thing you can do is jump all by yourself into a pack of enemies. Fun on Bronze, hard on Silver, dumb on Gold.
Also, I suspect that the Engineer is being used at least 25% of the time on Gold, if not more (SE, please pick up the FBWhite courtesy phone....).
Keep in mind, the 33% only means that there is one infiltrator in each match, and a second infiltrator in only one out of every twelve games (1/12 is about 8.333%; 25+8=33). Hardly worth freaking out about.

[InfamousResult]

Cundu_Ertur wrote...

Keep in mind, the 33% only means that there is one infiltrator in each match, and a second infiltrator in only one out of every twelve games (1/12 is about 8.333%; 25+8=33). Hardly worth freaking out about.

Maybe it isn't worth freaking out, just because of the being-used-more-than-other-classes thing.

But they said they had other reasons, too.. On top of the 33% thing. So, whatever combined data they looked into, it was obviously enough for them to see that TC needed a change. And that's alright.

[FirstBlood XL]

Knew all the 'L33T" players would come out of the woodwork and bang their chests to say how they can solo any gold map in under 20 mins with any class.

Good for you.

Anyone trying to say that the Device Objectives are not aimed at using stealth, and that TC isn't obviously the best stealth power, and thus not the smartest way to go about capping said objectives, can kindly go sit in the corner and suck your thumbs... cause you're nothing but contrarian simpletons.

Is there a way to do it without TC? Obviously. And I'd go to say its about 50/50 luck vs skill in that regard, saying this as a gold player with well over 100 hours put into this game (not something I'm proud to admit)

Device Objectives ARE aimed at Infiltrators using TC. It's a fact. Any other way is less efficient, and asking for trouble. Add objectives that fall into other class's specialties, and you'll even the score. DragoGoldenWing made several good suggestions to this.

Modifié par FirstBlood XL, 22 juin 2012 - 09:33 .

[Sacramentum]

I think that (if possible) the vanguard glitch should be fixes before nerfing TC. Then you guys at BW can see what the spread of players playing classes is, THEN work on TC.
I know I don't play Vanguard because of the glitch, so that might be why Inf is played so much. It has huge survivability, like the Vanguard, but isn't glitchy.

[ProjectGemini07]

Derek Hollan wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

ProjectGemini07 wrote...

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...
Regarding the OP, Infiltrators aren't required for Gold.  They just trivialise it.

As such, it seems to be standard operating procedure in a lot of gold lobbies to have at least one infiltrator.

So, I'd kind of regard 25% of gold players being this class as something of a normal baseline.  Having 33.6% of gold players rolling infiltrator doesn't really seem to me to be "overly large".

It IS overly large.  It means that each of the other classes is used, on average, a measly 13.3%.

You have, effectively, hit the nail on the head here.  Eric never takes balance issues lightly.  This sort of disparity tells us a lot.  It is not just that people like infiltrators.  If this were solely the case, then we should see a similar disparity on Silver and Bronze difficulty.  Alas, this is not the case as Eric points out that infiltrators make up 20.43% on Silver and 15.18% on Bronze.

Cheers!

FBWGG skews stats
Whenever we discuss Gold gameplay stats, there's an 800lb elephant in the room that needs to be at least briefly mentioned and that's the FBWGG phenomenon and to what extent it skews things.

It's probably the case that Geth is the enemy faction in Gold a much higher percentage of the time than they are in Silver or Bronze.  And most of these FBWGG matches seem to feature a SE using the Decoy.

My point on this is Gold has different parameters than Silver or Bronze.  Most Silver and Bronze games are probably set to U/U/U.  There are an absurdly high percentage of Gold lobbies that feature Geth as the enemy and at least one engineer as a teammate.

Given that, is it really surprising that you see a higher percentage of Infiltrators on Gold?  I don't think so, it's a rational class choice since it brings tech power effectiveness against a synthetic enemy and synergizes with the Engineer teammate.

Because of the FBWGG distortion, I think it creates a little bit of a situation where comparing Gold to Silver/Bronze becomes apples vs. oranges.

Gold requires synergy

This is completely based on my anecdotal experiences, but most Gold games I've played the team strategy revolves around creating synergystic combinations with the team members. This almost always means either biotic or tech focused teams.  The three most used classes to achieve this are Adepts, Engineers, and Infiltrators.  Much less frequently do you see Sentinels, Soldiers, and Vanguards and rarely do you see those classes specifically requested by anyone.

I suspect that if you shared out the rest of the class usage data, that you'd see those three classes are the three least used on Gold.  I could be wrong, but it's my suspicion that Adepts, Engineers, and Infiltrators probably comprise close to 75% of Gold lobbies.

I wonder if you see commensurate increases in Adepts and Engineers being played on Gold...?

Other

• Infiltrators are better at dealing high damage to single targets which makes sense on Gold since it features more boss level enemy types
• People want infiltrators in their squad for the objective waves.  There's almost always one in every Gold lobby for this reason.  That's why I see 25% as being the relevant baseline.
• Infiltrators can also fill a medic function, you could reduce the relevancy of the infiltrator in this regard by creating a discrete medic class (this is a pet subject of mine).  See post here:  http://social.biowar...5460/1#12661959

[DragoGoldenwing]

FirstBlood XL wrote...

Knew all the 'L33T" players would come out of the woodwork and bang their chests to say how they can solo any gold map in under 20 mins with any class.

Good for you.

Anyone trying to say that the Device Objectives are not aimed at using stealth, and that TC isn't obviously the best stealth power, and thus not the smartest way to go about capping said objectives, can kindly go sit in the corner and suck your thumbs... cause you're nothing but contrarian simpletons.

Is there a way to do it without TC? Obviously. And I'd go to say its about 50/50 luck vs skill in that regard, saying this as a gold player with well over 100 hours put into this game (not something I'm proud to admit)

Device Objectives ARE aimed at Infiltrators using TC. It's a fact. Any other way is less efficient, and asking for trouble. Add objectives that fall into other class's specialties, and you'll even the score. DragoGoldenWing made several good suggestions to this.

It's just something I've thought about a bit.  *Shrugs*  Another idea was giving classes multiple bonuses.
Engineers would boost hack speed while in the circle, and could have increased enable-objective speed.
Soldiers could boost weapon damage while in the hack circle, and could have increased disable-objective speed.
Sentinels could give damage reduction while in the hack circle, and take less damage while carrying delivery objectives.
Vanguards could have increased disable-objective speed, and have slightly increased speed while carrying delivery objectives.
Adepts could have increased disable and enable objective speed.
Infiltrators could have a damage boost against assassination targets and increased damage while carrying the delivery objective.

This actually pays attention to the background message of 'disable' objectives.  Sometimes you have to disable indoctrination devices, sometimes you have to enable communications arrays.  Some classes like Soldiers, which are destructive, have an easier time just wrecking the damn indoctrination devices.  Some classes like Engineers are more adept with the tech and would have an easier time than others enabling the comm arrays.
Most classes would also give passive buffs while in hack circles, while some like Adepts and Vanguards are more for mobile utility - especially Vanguards who are traditionally supposed to be risk-takers out on the front of the fight.  It would promote variance - if there's already an Infiltrator to assassinate things and have an easier time one-shotting enemies that come within sight while he's carrying the objective, it might be a good idea to grab a Sentinel to make taking those shots from the Hunters who are inevitably going to swarm the hack circle a little less of a nightmare, or grabbing a Vanguard so you can move the delivery objective faster, instead of going "Ehhh we can use a third Infiltrator."

[1337haxwtg]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

Just as an FYI, since I'm not sure that it's clear... there is a difference between a hotfix and a patch.

Hotfixes can be deployed live and fairly easily (like a lot of the balance tweaks). Patches take a relatively long time to put together and test (especially when you take into account certification).

A lot of things can only be fixed with patches, balance issues are primarily being addressed with hotfixes (because they can be). Hopefully this clarifies things a bit. :happy:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the functional difference is that hotfixes are done server-side, and patches must be applied user-side?

That is why you can apply balance changes every week but must get approval from Microsoft and Sony to apply major game updates. That is why patches come far less often and packed with more changes.

[Brenon Holmes]

1337haxwtg wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the functional difference is that hotfixes are done server-side, and patches must be applied user-side?

That is why you can apply balance changes every week but must get approval from Microsoft and Sony to apply major game updates. That is why patches come far less often and packed with more changes.

Yep, that's essentially it. :happy:

[Cundu_Ertur]

InfamousResult wrote...

Cundu_Ertur wrote...

Keep in mind, the 33% only means that there is one infiltrator in each match, and a second infiltrator in only one out of every twelve games (1/12 is about 8.333%; 25+8=33). Hardly worth freaking out about.

Maybe it isn't worth freaking out, just because of the being-used-more-than-other-classes thing.

But they said they had other reasons, too.. On top of the 33% thing. So, whatever combined data they looked into, it was obviously enough for them to see that TC needed a change. And that's alright.

I've always thought the fact that infiltrators did not have to worry about weight was completely unbalancing. Make weight matter.

[capn233]

You do worry about weight, just not as much.

Take a low level Javelin into a game as an infiltrator and then see how fun it is to do your "expected" job of getting devices, or reviving people on the other side of the map.

Modifié par capn233, 22 juin 2012 - 10:18 .

[1337haxwtg]

Cundu_Ertur wrote...

InfamousResult wrote...

Cundu_Ertur wrote...

Keep
in mind, the 33% only means that there is one infiltrator in each
match, and a second infiltrator in only one out of every twelve games
(1/12 is about 8.333%; 25+8=33). Hardly worth freaking out
about.

Maybe it isn't worth freaking out, just because of the being-used-more-than-other-classes thing.

But
they said they had other reasons, too.. On top of the 33% thing. So,
whatever combined data they looked into, it was obviously enough for
them to see that TC needed a change. And that's alright.

I've
always thought the fact that infiltrators did not have to worry about
weight was completely unbalancing. Make weight matter.

Well, the Infiltrator is built upon use of heavier weapons, so something like that could really break the class if not handled well. If anything, I think the cloak should have a hard cooldown of 50% the listed cooldown after weight is applied, but unable to drop below 3 seconds, and still working up to the max cooldown if you remain cloaked for the full duration.

Basically, the cloak currently has a default cooldown of 3 seconds if broken early. The longer you spend in cloak, the longer the cooldown will be, topping off at the listed cooldown. My suggestion makes the starting number change from 3 to 50% of the listed cooldown, with a minimum of 3 for lighter weight infiltrator builds.

I'm not sure if this would help balance the infiltrator; I'd have to run some numbers first and maybe pick a different starting percentage.

But then again, that might hurt infiltrators with the Javelin. However, I think that issue needs to be addressed through changes to the Javelin itself, which is a pretty underwhelming gun, even with the huge damage-per-shot factored in.

Modifié par 1337haxwtg, 22 juin 2012 - 10:24 .

[Trav-O]

I liked the introduction of the pizza objectives, it seems like a step to make certain classes better at certain missions. If a sentinel got a bonus for this package carrys, or an engineer got a bonus for hacking missions, etc. This sort of small update might be easier to implement to liven things up a bit?

[Jebel Krong]

Id still prefer a fix for the stupid weapon lottery system that means my javelin is still only a 3 which means that when i stop playing after the nerf i will never have even gotten to play my infiltrators as intended. Thanks again "community".

[landylan]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Id still prefer a fix for the stupid weapon lottery system that means my javelin is still only a 3 which means that when i stop playing after the nerf i will never have even gotten to play my infiltrators as intended. Thanks again "community".

cooldown barely effects infiltrators, and the difference between a level 3's damage and a level 10's damage isn't incredible.

Also, it's ULTRA RARE

Modifié par landylan, 22 juin 2012 - 10:41 .

[Jayleia]

Ubergrog wrote...


1. Fix the vanguard glitch, you lying jerks.
2. Remove Shield gate. It should never have been added in the first place.
3. Make headshots possible on boss-mobs again (permitting other weapons-heavy classes some value again)
4. Fix all of the glitched tech powers.
5. If you're going to have units with power-negating abilities, make sure the powers negated make sense (seriously, frag grenades?)
6. Fix sync kill units. Way to make them even more of a headache by making them stun-proof.
7. Make known weak powers more effective. Carnage is a great example of a useless power.
8. Stop making classes virtually identical to one another (No one has managed to convince me that the Vorcha Soldier and sentinel are different in any functional way)
9. Increase the effeciveness of other classes instead of making the ONE good class weaker.  
10. Increase grenade spawn rate at ammo crates.


Ta-da! ten ways to reduce infiltrator gameplay, and none of them involve hurting the class. 

1.  Yes Plz
2.  Gate is fine, you have two weapon slots, and different powers.
3.  Yes Plz, though I'm fine with them getting some protection
5.  Was wondering why my grenades didn't hurt the Phantom today...
6.  Fine with sync-kills units, except Phantom's Snipah Hand.
7.  What does Carnage do?
9. Cloak is pretty much OK, but Tactical Cloak should turn you invisible, not turn you into Thor.
10.  YES.  THIS

[Cundu_Ertur]

1337haxwtg wrote...

My suggestion makes the starting number change from 3 to 50% of the listed cooldown, with a minimum of 3 for lighter weight infiltrator builds.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking.
The problem is that an infiltrator can use cloak to spam their other power with just the 3 sec cooldown when their weight should make it a 12 or 15 or 20 second cooldown. And with a boost to power damage, to boot.

[sobbos]

Oh how this community is lolz worthy.

[Feauce]

Making the sniper damage additive and fixing the cooldown mechanic would fix most legitimate complaints about Tactical Cloak that I've seen. At least one (if not both) of those would likely be a client update, though. Other than that, I'd think, a fair "fix" would be a 1-2 sec lower base duration and a 0.5-1 sec higher base recharge time.

[Syrus101]

Ubergrog wrote...

YOUR GAME IS BUGGY, YOU REFUSE TO FIX IT, AND YOU MADE THE MISSIONS TOO HARD TO FIGHT WITHOUT AT LEAST ONE INFILTRATOR ON THE TEAM!

lol


wernt people complaining that the game was too easy? try playing without one then :innocent:


seriously though thats silly. I've done plenty of SUCCSESSFUL Gold matches without an infiltrator. 

I play infiltrator on occasions but I dont play them the way everyone else seems to play them. aka TC heavy. *cloak - shoot - uncloak - cloak -shoot - uncloak* ect ect...
I personally find it annoying to keep doing and... well... not my playstyle. the only time I use TC is to either run away, switch positions, save a fallen teamate, and do some of the ojectives (cap 4 points ect) 

so to many "I'm doing it wrong" but it hasnt failed me yet


EDIT: but... oh wait thats right... exploitation.... I should have seen it 

Modifié par Syrus101, 22 juin 2012 - 11:43 .

[GGW KillerTiger]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

greghorvath wrote...
 Like in the case of 1.03? 

Zing... :happy:

It does appear that there were some problematic elements in that patch yes...  But those should be addressed in the next one. It's unfortunate, but that's basically where we're at. 

Just don't lie with claiming fixes then actually fix nothing and break everything else this time. Please?

[jerrinehart]

a ViciousFerret wrote...

FirstBlood XL wrote...

Here's the simple reality that BW isn't seeing:

On Gold, the DEVICE DISABLE/ENABLE OBJECTIVES dictate that EACH team have at least ONE INFILTRATOR.  Not because the weapons/powers are OP.  You NEED the TC ability in order to cap those objectives. Get this kind of objective in any given Gold match without an Infiltrator and you're good as dead, baring lucky spawn points for the devices/enemies.

THAT is why people play them slightly more then average.  Every team is 4 players, correct? Having one Infiltrator per team is 25%.  So when the ratio is a 'whopping' 33%, I don't see much to fret about... it's only slightly more then absolutely needed, based on the DEVICE OBJECTIVES that BW created, which very obviously fit the Infiltrator's TC power.  No other objectives beg for a certain character class.  This is the main reason you have a disparity.

Case in point:

I join a random public game on gold as an Asari Adept.  I see that nobody in the lobby is an Infiltrator.  I say to myself "Oh crap, we'll never be able to cap the device objectives if we get them" so I switch my character to an INF so I can help my team with the objectives.   

BW wants people to play Infiltrators less... try getting rid of the device objectives.  I'll bet dollars to donuts the INF vs other characters ratio has a solid drop.

I didn't know capping the objectives with a non-Infiltrator class wasn't allowed.

Seriously get over yourself. I and hundreds, probably thousands, cap the devices each game with a non-infiltrator class.

That was not hs pont at all, you're just arguing semantics now. It's pretty friggin obvious TC helps dramatically with Objectives and revives. I mean seriously, who would argue that? 

[Trakarg]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

1337haxwtg wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the functional difference is that hotfixes are done server-side, and patches must be applied user-side?

That is why you can apply balance changes every week but must get approval from Microsoft and Sony to apply major game updates. That is why patches come far less often and packed with more changes.

Yep, that's essentially it. :happy:

So, uh, can you release PC patches faster, at least?  I don't think you need sony/MS approval for those.  If anything, quicker patch releases on the PC would let you know what you need to fix about the patch before you send it live to the consoles.

It's a hell of a lot better than releasing a broken patch for everyone after MONTHS of waiting.

[JaimasOfRaxis]

Man's got a point, mind.

[greghorvath]

landylan wrote...
your ramblings are confusing me...im not sure i see the point in things you say. 15.18% is nearly the ideal number for even use of classes

Perhaps you should read my entire post (on page 6) and that would help you with your confusion. If you find that does not clear it up you probably need different kind of help than what I can give you.

And btw, whenever you see a post containing only a point 4., it is safe to assume there was 1.2.3. somewhere before. I thought this was kind of self explanatory but evidently some of us need clarification.

Modifié par greghorvath, 23 juin 2012 - 04:18 .