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A Look at the Infiltrator: Jack of All Trades, Master of All


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#1
GodlessPaladin

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As much as a certain anti-nerfing faction on this board will vehemently deny it, Infiltrators do bring a few balance problems to the field which adversely impacts the variety of the game, both in terms of class choices and even weapon choices for said classes.

As they currently stand, Infiltrators do it all.  They have the damage output of a or Soldier or Adept, the support of an Engineer, a survivability that Sentinels envy, and a truly exceptional ability to handle all four types of objectives in the game.  Heck they're even the best at getting the party a full extraction.  They're incredible both in terms of uppermost potential in the hands of elite players as well as in terms of being easy to pick up and dominate with for new players in pretty much every role in the game.  With Infiltrators, you don't need other classes.  You don't need a well-rounded and diverse team that covers different areas of expertise with a variety of talents.  Four infiltrators are an optimal speedrunning team all on their own.  With Proximity Mine's ability to stack with itself, you don't even really need to mix up your Infiltrator types... you can just take four of the *same kind* of infiltrator and do incredibly well.

One argument I've seen against any change to the Infiltrator class is that if you made Infiltrator choose between some aspect of their amazing utility and their damage, that they would suddenly be unable to work as team players.  I just can't take that argument seriously.  You know what?   Everyone in the game without a cloak and the dozens of other wonderful tools Infiltrators have (like debuffs, wallhacks, crowd control, tech burst setups, power cancels, et cetera) are perfectly capable of playing well with their team. I think this argument is like saying if you took away the Krysae Infiltrators couldn't play with the team because they'd lose the ability to stagger lock everything all the time to CC for their team. It's nonsense and doesn't account for all of the other wonderful tools Infiltrators have.

In fact, even if they had no invisibility at all, Infiltrators would still be amazing team players who bring a lot to the table.

- Geth Infiltrator: Sees through walls and provides information to the team. Has a movement speed bonus making them amazing at getting to objectives and carrying pizzas (or wherever they're needed in general). Has Proximity Mine which sets traps, triggers tech burst and fire explosions in a large area, provides excellent crowd control, and debuffs bosses (or entire spawn points) providing a damage boost for everyone.

- Salarian Infiltrator: Sets up tech bursts and strips shields more effectively than their Salarian Engineer cousin with Energy Drain. Has the same Proximity Mine utility as the Geth Infiltrator.  It's even potentially a tank with a regenerating shield, good crowd control, and a high functional health/shields of 2592 which scales better than most with gear like Cyclonic Modulators or a Stronghold Package.

- Female Quarian Infiltrator: Boosts tech damage for everyone. Befuddles enemies with sabotaged machines for crowd control.  Sets up traps to block off choke points with Sticky Grenades (as well as interrupting banshee grabs and such).

- Male Quarian Infiltrator: Primes an entire spawn area for tech bursts. Tactical Scan keeps allies updated on enemy positions and provides a substantial damage boost for everyone firing at the target.

- Human Infiltrator: Cryo Blast is another serious support debuff power which slows or freezes enemies and gives allies a significant boost against them. Also has the utility of sticky grenades just like the Female Quarian Infiltrator.

- All Infiltrators: Provides serious DPS and burst damage for the team and can easily get to where they're needed to block off a firing lane or clear out an obstructing boss (like the slow moving wall of threat that is the Atlas).  They're also all great at applying ammo powers.

And yet I keep hearing people actually saying that without the full measure of Tactical Cloak, they'd have nothing going for them. 

But that's not even the only issue.  Infiltrators get an entire weapon category, sniper rifles, all to themselves.  The balance compensating for the 1.4x damage multiplier to sniper rifles available from Tactical Cloak rank 6 is that every sniper rifle save the Krysae is just not very effective on non-Infiltrators, and of course on Infiltrators the Krysae has been shown to be capable of getting <10 minute gold runs, which in part demonstrates the problem with making a sniper rifle that's genuinely good on any non-Infiltrator class. 

One argument I've seen is that Infiltrators are popular because people like sniper rifles.  Well, there is no "Assault Rifle" class.  There is no "Heavy Pistol" class.  There is no "SMG" class.  There is no "Shotgun" class.  Each of these weapon groups have a number of options that members of every class can find useful.  Heck, even Infiltrators make great use of all of these weapon categories.  But then there is a sniper rifle class.  This isn't a boon for sniper rifle lovers... it's the exact opposite.  It drastically narrows the range of competitively viable options for players who enjoy sniper rifles to one out of six classes.   Some sniper fans have tried to make sniper rifles work for other classes but they just don't do well and the community laughs at the notion of Asari snipers.  If it wasn't for Tactical Cloak's enormous Sniper Rifle multiplier, sniper rifles could be brought up to speed and made into more competitive options for every class, really opening up the options for that category of weapons.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't want the class to be gutted.  I love Infiltrators and play them frequently, and frankly I'm sure the devs do too.  But let's be honest here, Infiltrators aren't so helpless that they can't stand to take a hit and still dominate the battlefield, and nerfing one class that accomplishes everything in one superb package is a much more practical solution than rewriting the entire rest of the game to accomodate them.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 03:01 .


#2
AreleX

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in summation: bioware designed themselves into a hell of a hole with the infiltrator, and are unwilling to do all the work necessary to bring the other aspects in line, so the answer is simply making it weaker.

the nerf is imminent.

#3
audicdm

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Wow! What a well thought out post and I'd have to agree. It's funny but I actually just sent Mr Fagnan a PM with a similar synopsis on Infiltrators and suggestions for TC to make players choose a role with the class.

#4
GodlessPaladin

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audicdm wrote...

Wow! What a well thought out post and I'd have to agree. It's funny but I actually just sent Mr Fagnan a PM with a similar synopsis on Infiltrators and suggestions for TC to make players choose a role with the class.


I also provided a suggestion of this sort.

Quoted from the "Balance ALL the things!" thread:

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Tactical Cloak Power
- Base cooldown reduced from 10 seconds to 8
seconds (Compensates for the way the new duration affects Tactical
Cloak's unique cooldown mechanics.  The minimum cooldown remains the
same)
- Base duration reduced to from 8 seconds to 4 seconds
- Base damage bonus increased from 50% to 60%
- Evolution 1 duration bonus increased from 40% to 150%
- Evolution 2 damage bonus decreased from 40% to 30% (10% moved to base damage bonus)
- Evolution 5 melee damage bonus decreased from 50% to 40%  (Only because of changes to melee attacks in the rest of my balance suggestions)
- Evolution 6 damage bonus decreased from 40% to 25%, and tooltip changed to clarify why it's different from other "%" bonuses.


Note:  This change also came alongside a recommendation to buff all sniper rifles save the Krysae 15%, basically making the Evolution 6 change a null sum for sniper infiltrators but opening up sniper rifles to other classes.

GodlessPaladin wrote...

- Tactical Cloak  This change accomplishes a few things.  First, it makes the Evolution 1 Duration option more attractive (after all, who doesn't take the 40% damage bonus from Evolution 2 instead?) by moving some over Evolution 2's damage into the base damage bonus and by making the difference in duration much more notable.  

Secondly, this change emphasizes the old ME1 style paradigm of choosing between being an Agent or a Commando.  You can choose to either be able to run around with Cloak all you want, capping objectives, reviving teammates, and comfortably taking your time to maneuver, or you can go for maximum damage at the expense of utility.  The base cooldown was changed to make the cooldown in practice even out with the new duration (since cooldown is linked to percentage of duration used up, and the duration is shorter.  Thanks to Kronner for figuring out how to adjust the cooldown to compensate).  

Third, Evolution Rank 6 now adds a 1.25x sniper rifle damage multiplier rather than 1.4x.  However, at the same time, most sniper rifles have been buffed 15%, causing things to more or less even out and at the same time making sniper rifles more competitively viable for non-Infiltrator characters.  The exception to this is the Krysae, which hasn't gotten a buff, and as such does less damage on Infiltrators than it used to (and can no longer one-shot shielded mobs on Gold).

The change to the melee damage bonus evolution simply compensates for Fitness being buffed, since we didn't feel Infiltrators needed much more melee damage, particularly with melee synergy being buffed.



A link to said thread can be found here:  social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/12648909/1#12648929

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 03:05 .


#5
BoomDynamite

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Hmm... Never thought of it like that. Maybe just a tone down of +15% instead of +40% on Rank 6 SR damage would be all it needs.

#6
Mandolin

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Infiltrators have ruled the roost since the game came out. Balance is long overdue. Even without any damage boost, cloak would still be one of the best powers in the game and I guarantee bioware wont go anywhere near that far in terms of "balancing".

#7
GodlessPaladin

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BoomDynamite wrote...

Hmm... Never thought of it like that. Maybe just a tone down of +15% instead of +40% on Rank 6 SR damage would be all it needs.


I'd say sniper-rifle-using Infiltrators aren't actually one of the bigger issues with Infiltrators in terms of how powerful they are.  Other aspects of the class are responsible for that, and as we all know prior to the introduction of the Krysae the way to go with Infiltrators for speedruns saw players toting around Claymores and Scorpions and such.  Evolution 6 of Tactical Cloak isn't a problem because Black Widow is too good on Infiltrators, it's because in order to compensate for Evolution 6 of Tactical Cloak sniper rifles are too *bad* on everyone else, relegating an entire category of weapons to "For Infiltrators," whereas every other weapon category is "options for everyone!"

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 02:56 .


#8
RunWithTheWolvz

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http://social.biowar.../index/12690107

This is a more developed version of a thread I posted, it seems to be something which keeps coming up as the real problem with INFs so hopefully it is how they will be "fixed"

#9
cory257383

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

BoomDynamite wrote...

Hmm... Never thought of it like that. Maybe just a tone down of +15% instead of +40% on Rank 6 SR damage would be all it needs.


I'd say sniper-rifle-using Infiltrators aren't actually one of the bigger issues with Infiltrators in terms of how powerful they are.  Other aspects of the class are responsible for that, and as we all know prior to the introduction of the Krysae the way to go with Infiltrators for speedruns saw players toting around Claymores and Scorpions and such.  Evolution 6 of Tactical Cloak isn't a problem because Black Widow is too good on Infiltrators, it's because in order to compensate for Evolution 6 of Tactical Cloak sniper rifles are too *bad* on everyone else, relegating an entire category of weapons to "For Infiltrators," whereas every other weapon category is "options for everyone!"

godless I like you but I hate you at the same time. You and your followers will destroy our class. Regardless I will be infiltrator cause its what I like to play and adapt to it.

And i agree with your master of all statement hence why I consider them the keystone but its their responsibility to win the game when things go to ****.

#10
Tallgeese_VII

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When I first started the game, I treated my TC as non-damage boosing supportive skill. It was still fun back then. I agree that even without current dramatic damage boost TC is still one of best ability available.
However, people won`t be happy about change at this point. I think it took to long to change the TC.

#11
mijames1

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nice to see some sense brought to this topic

#12
LadyAlekto

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Which is why i as one saying tc is fine, and as rabbid infiltrator, support wholeheartly paladins suggested tweaks to sniper and tc.....

#13
GodlessPaladin

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cory257383 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

BoomDynamite wrote...

Hmm... Never thought of it like that. Maybe just a tone down of +15% instead of +40% on Rank 6 SR damage would be all it needs.


I'd say sniper-rifle-using Infiltrators aren't actually one of the bigger issues with Infiltrators in terms of how powerful they are.  Other aspects of the class are responsible for that, and as we all know prior to the introduction of the Krysae the way to go with Infiltrators for speedruns saw players toting around Claymores and Scorpions and such.  Evolution 6 of Tactical Cloak isn't a problem because Black Widow is too good on Infiltrators, it's because in order to compensate for Evolution 6 of Tactical Cloak sniper rifles are too *bad* on everyone else, relegating an entire category of weapons to "For Infiltrators," whereas every other weapon category is "options for everyone!"

godless I like you but I hate you at the same time. You and your followers will destroy our class. Regardless I will be infiltrator cause its what I like to play and adapt to it.

And i agree with your master of all statement hence why I consider them the keystone but its their responsibility to win the game when things go to ****.


But it shouldn't be their responsibility.  It should be everyone's responsibility,  I don't think making it everyone's responsibility would "destroy the class."  I certainly don't think my suggested change would destroy the class... it would still be a top tier choice.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 03:04 .


#14
DNC Protoman

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TC will be brought into line so that good weapon creation and buffs to weaker weps become possible. No more free passes for the newb-filtrators.

This will lead to glorious things.

#15
aletto

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you took the words right out of my mouth (does this idiom even exist in english? oh well ^^)
anyway, you're completely right.
But I fear, that all those arguments won't help much against "DON'T NERF TACTICAL CLOAK OR ILL QUIT THIS GAME"
nevertheless, I'm sure some people will see reason

#16
KarmaTheAlligator

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All 4 objectives? Really? When TC is one of the 2 powers that can't be used when carrying the pizza?

#17
molecularman

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cory257383 wrote...

godless I like you but I hate you at the same time. You and your followers will destroy our class. Regardless I will be infiltrator cause its what I like to play and adapt to it.

And i agree with your master of all statement hence why I consider them the keystone but its their responsibility to win the game when things go to ****.

You said it yourself. Winning the game shouldn't be the responsibility of one single class, that's wrong.

You say you'd use infiltrators even after nerf and that kinda indicates you are a reasonable player. I mean, you wouldn't abandon the class because it doesn't make the game easy for you anymore. Most nerf-haters would.


E: Oh, and well put GP

Modifié par molecularman, 22 juin 2012 - 03:10 .


#18
Geist.H

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Pretty much spot on Paladin.

Infiltrator are way over the top at moment and way to many players are carried by the class (probably the same that come and whine about the impending fix). While I do myself indulge in the pleasure of destroying a Prime with 1 clip and a half of Hurricane while blowing up entiere clusters of pyro with proxi spam, there is no way the game can continue like this.

#19
GodlessPaladin

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KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

All 4 objectives? Really? When TC is one of the 2 powers that can't be used when carrying the pizza?


Yes, really.  Let's examine all four objectives using, say, the Geth Infiltrator as an example.

Deliver the Pizza:  Geth Infiltrators are rivalled only by the likes of Drell Adepts in pizza objectives.  They have an excellent ability to *reach* the pizza using Tactical Cloak to maneuver (or just plain lead off enemies and then give them the slip), and then they can speed to the extraction zone with their movement speed bonus while effortlessly avoiding enemy encounters with the help of their situational awareness via wallhack.

I could just as easily give examples with other Infiltrator classes.  For example, Male Quarian Infiltrators can easily lock down and power through any opposition while carrying the pizza with Arc Grenades, scout out enemies with Tactical Scan to calculate an optimal route, and like every Infiltrator they can effortlessly sprint across the entire map to grab the pizza to begin with.

King of the Hack:   Geth Infiltrators like all infiltrators are perfectly content to camp out at a single spot and blast anything that crosses into their line of fire.  They have absolutely none of the issues with standing still that some classes do, like Human Vanguards.  Moreover, there is no enemy that they have a hard time killing before they overrun the circle.  Whereas an Asari Vanguard might have a difficult time stopping the forward motion of an Atlas, Infiltrators have no particular problem here.  Not only do they personally have a great damage output, but their proximity mines will multiply the damage output of the rest of the party too.  In addition they are always aware of who is approaching the circle from where, and they can easily block off avenues of approach with proximity mine traps or stagger lock incoming groups of enemies while dishing out massive damage via proximity mine, tech bursts, or even area of effect attacks like the Krysae.

Other Infiltrator classes do just as well.  Replace proximity mines with tactical scan, sticky grenades, sabotage, and cryo blast.

Activate / Deactivate FOUR of the Things:  This should need no explanation.  Cloak makes these about as stressful a casual stroll through the park.  Simply walk to the things and hit the A button.  Nobody will bother you on your way there or while pressing the button.  Ever.  Unless your teammates are retarded and try really hard to draw all the enemies to you, but it's not like you'd be better off as a non-Infiltrator in that case.

Obviously, other infiltrator classes do just as well here, save for the walk taking slightly longer without a movement speed bonus.

Assassination:  You can easily get to anywhere on the map without wasting time actually dealing with opposition in the way, and then deal a truckload of burst damage in an instant to remove the target from play.  Repeat four times.  Oh, did I mention that Tactical Cloak and Hunter Mode even make your missiles better?  Because they do.

And yet again, it should be clear how other Infiltrators can do these objectives efficiently too.  They all get around the map easily and can deal high burst damage with little need to slow down to consider the threat of taking enemy fire.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 03:32 .


#20
dunx125

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Well written. I hope they'll give it the high risk - high reward element like it had in ME2. There definitely needs to be a better reason to take +40% duration over damage as well.

#21
neteng101

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

As they currently stand, Infiltrators do it all.


Nope.  They sure can't tank.  If you're gonna try to stand up under fire then you have to play a tank class, which is where Sentinels with Tech Armor, Krogans with Barrier, Vorcha with health regeneration shine.

And Infiltrators suck at crowd control too.  You either kill the enemy first or you're dead.  Nerfing them will just negate the only real survivability option they have ie. kill, or be killed.

You're being disingeneous trying to spout your own agenda again here, and obviously painting a one sided view.

Btw - adepts are the pistol class, and they should remain that way.  Too many adept wannabe snipers as it is already.  ARs and SMGs need a good look at, but pistols, shotguns and snipers are all fine.  And that Krysae has so many bugs and is such a horrible weapon to actually play with, that I really pity anyone using it more than envy them.

#22
A Wild Snorlax

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Infiltrators are a bit too good and a nerf is kind of called for tbh, I've pretty much stopped playing them because I find them boring now. Your suggestions look reasonable.

However nerfing infiltrators is not the answer for promoting class diversity. Certain powers and classes are severly underpowered and you're just gimping yourself in a major way if you're using them. Those need big buffs for most people to want to start using them.

I'm cool with them nerfing infiltrators as long as they don't go overboard. However if they're going to do that they should also give some of the underpowered stuff buffs, that actually are big enough to make a difference.

#23
UKStory135

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With Shield gating, no headshots on bosses, and other gold buffs, SR aren't even that effective on Infiltrators. Before the Krysae, Infiltrators were better off using the Scorpion, GPS, Graal, Wraith, and Claymore. A fully specced out GI with all of the damage buffs can not OSOK a Nemesis on Silver. So I honestly can't beleive anyone thinks a SR Infiltrator is OP.

#24
BoomDynamite

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

All 4 objectives? Really? When TC is one of the 2 powers that can't be used when carrying the pizza?


Geth Infiltrators are rivalled only by Drell Adepts in pizza objectives.

Vorcha can be more durable and move faster than both at the same time (Full movement speed Bloodlust is 30% extra mobility.)

Modifié par BoomDynamite, 22 juin 2012 - 03:15 .


#25
KarmaTheAlligator

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

All 4 objectives? Really? When TC is one of the 2 powers that can't be used when carrying the pizza?


Geth Infiltrators are rivalled only by Drell Adepts in pizza objectives.  They have an excellent ability to *reach* the pizza using Tactical Cloak to maneuver (or just plain lead off enemies and then give them the slip), and then they can speed to the extraction zone with their movement speed bonus while effortlessly avoiding enemy encounters with the help of their situational awareness via wallhack.


Right, so GI with Hunter Mode are the problem, not Infiltrators as a whole.