297 réponses à ce sujet

[nicethugbert]

Kronner wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

What bothers me the most about infiltrators is tactical cloak and what bothers me the most about tactical cloak is aggro dumping, I think Tactical cloak should be less effective in all it's functions, especially aggro dumping, the more infiltrators there are in the match such that it is 1/n effective with n infiltrators present in a match.

There is no aggro dumping unless the Infiltrator flat out sucks. A good Infiltrator will kill/disable the aggro he "dumped" (i.e. the enemies that were focused on him before he cloaked) on the team quicker than they have a chance to attack the non-Infiltrators.

There is aggro dumping mechanics in this game that tactical cloak uses.  It's just a proven, easily demonstable, fact.  What you are actually saying is that the infiltrator that does not flat out suck kills the enemy whose aggro he just dumped.  This implies that there is an aggro dumping mechanism but that some players trivialize it by thier actions.  It also implies quite a high bar for not sucking as an Infiltrator, a highly fantastic high bar I would say, when you consider all the enemies that cannot be one shotted or how fast one would have to eliminate a swarm of lower grade mobs.

Having to rely on magical skill presumably held by the tinest percentage of players to resolve the unfairness of aggro dump means no resolution is available by your suggestion.

[InfamousResult]

Seifer006 wrote...

yeah why not?

a person who gets on BSN and starts ranting and raving about something where it's clearly shown he has no idea what he's talking about. I can make a pretty **** good judgment of if he's skilled or not.

Who's ranting and raving? You are.

Who was the one who doesn't come on BSN and didn't know what he was talking about? You were.

You are not a judge of skill.

[Seifer006]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

*Shrug* I'm surprised it took so many pages for all of the senseless trolls to crawl out of the woodwork.

sorry wasn't trying to be troll. just hate to see the Infiltrator class to be nef'd. What's next? Vorcha?

[Vikingo]

@ Godless paladin.
Maybe I am a bit late posting this as the thread is so long, but I've grown tired of all the mindless, unintelligent "nerf TC" threads and dont frequent these boards as much as I used to.

But I must say your analysis and conclusions are well thought out. And if the TC was changed along those lines it wouldn't be so bad. I particularly like the reduction of rank 6 sniper bonus but increase of the sniper rifles themselves. It would really make sniper rifles usable and more effective on other classes.

[Kronner]

nicethugbert wrote...
Having to rely on magical skill presumably held by the tinest percentage of players to resolve the unfairness of aggro dump means no resolution is available by your suggestion.

I made no suggestion. I stated the fact that a good Infiltrator kills quickly enough to make any "aggro dump" a non-issue.

What baffles me though is that you are complaining that Tactical Cloak is making the player "invisible". That is never going to change. Cloak will always make the player "invisible", just like Charge is always going to fill your barriers. It's just a fundamental feature.

Cloak is not balanced because it gives damage bonus AND utility. The player is not forced to pick between the two options. He gets both. This should be fixed.

Modifié par Kronner, 25 juin 2012 - 06:48 .

[Lord Rosario]

nicethugbert wrote...

Kronner wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

What bothers me the most about infiltrators is tactical cloak and what bothers me the most about tactical cloak is aggro dumping, I think Tactical cloak should be less effective in all it's functions, especially aggro dumping, the more infiltrators there are in the match such that it is 1/n effective with n infiltrators present in a match.

There is no aggro dumping unless the Infiltrator flat out sucks. A good Infiltrator will kill/disable the aggro he "dumped" (i.e. the enemies that were focused on him before he cloaked) on the team quicker than they have a chance to attack the non-Infiltrators.

There is aggro dumping mechanics in this game that tactical cloak uses.  It's just a proven, easily demonstable, fact.  What you are actually saying is that the infiltrator that does not flat out suck kills the enemy whose aggro he just dumped.  This implies that there is an aggro dumping mechanism but that some players trivialize it by thier actions.  It also implies quite a high bar for not sucking as an Infiltrator, a highly fantastic high bar I would say, when you consider all the enemies that cannot be one shotted or how fast one would have to eliminate a swarm of lower grade mobs.

Having to rely on magical skill presumably held by the tinest percentage of players to resolve the unfairness of aggro dump means no resolution is available by your suggestion.

It's not that it take a lot of skill to not agro dump, all you have to do is cloak, then fire almost immediately. Then, no agro was dumped whether you killed the enemy or not. Also, just cloaking then firing off a skill + gun keeps the full damage bonus, dumps no agro on your team, and cuts your recharge speed to the minimum no matter how heavy your guns. Could have a Crusader and a Widow and would still have that 3 second cooldown. For an infiltrator that's made for dealing damage, they aren't going to be hidden long enough to dump any agro because they are going to be firing as many times as possible.

[Ektogamut]

PluralAces wrote...

Ektogamut wrote...

PluralAces wrote...

the damage is because of tactical cloak not because of the infiltrator class...

Tactical cloak is exclusive to infiltrator.

duh...its the ability that makes them overpowered...if you lower the damage bonuses in the ability the infiltrator is no longer overpowered...  

Thanks for clarifying.  I thought it was the apearance of the letter F in their name that made them overpowered.

OT:  Mr. Fagnan stated in a recent thread that large swathes of changes are hard to implement due to the amount of testing required.  This change might fall under that.  As an aside, though, there were some patches were many weapons were buffed at at time and it didn't seem to cause a problem.  My point is do you think this change will be feasible to do all at once?

Modifié par Ektogamut, 25 juin 2012 - 07:00 .

[robarcool]

Kronner wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
Having to rely on magical skill presumably held by the tinest percentage of players to resolve the unfairness of aggro dump means no resolution is available by your suggestion.

I made no suggestion. I stated the fact that a good Infiltrator kills quickly enough to make any "aggro dump" a non-issue.

What baffles me though is that you are complaining that Tactical Cloak is making the player "invisible". That is never going to change. Cloak will always make the player "invisible", just like Charge is always going to fill your barriers. It's just a fundamental feature.

Cloak is not balanced because it gives damage bonus AND utility. The player is not forced to pick between the two options. He gets both. This should be fixed.

Don't worry. He will keep complaining about 'aggro dump' even after any suitable change to TC, because that's what I see him doing anytime he talks about cloak.

[GodlessPaladin]

Vikingo wrote...

@ Godless paladin.
Maybe I am a bit late posting this as the thread is so long, but I've grown tired of all the mindless, unintelligent "nerf TC" threads and dont frequent these boards as much as I used to.

But I must say your analysis and conclusions are well thought out. And if the TC was changed along those lines it wouldn't be so bad. I particularly like the reduction of rank 6 sniper bonus but increase of the sniper rifles themselves. It would really make sniper rifles usable and more effective on other classes.

You're not late, it's not a particularly old thread.

[Pitznik]

Seifer006 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

*Shrug* I'm surprised it took so many pages for all of the senseless trolls to crawl out of the woodwork.

sorry wasn't trying to be troll. just hate to see the Infiltrator class to be nef'd. What's next? Vorcha?

Tbh I expect Bioware picking the easy route, like with Krysae - some silly nerf, like 5% less damage or something. But on the other hand Eric Fagnan seems to really care and think about all the stuff he changes, he reads posts of GP and other like-minded people (by which I mean people wanting balance, and by balance I don't mean "Nerf all the things") so who knows, maybe it could be some change that would make everyone happy.

[Shepard_Commander11]

I personally do not understand why it needs to be toned down at all. This is a cooperative multiplayer. Who cares if one is better?

[Ektogamut]

Shepard_Commander11 wrote...

I personally do not understand why it needs to be toned down at all. This is a cooperative multiplayer. Who cares if one is better?

FAQ in another thread.

http://social.biowar...8909/1#12648929

[Lord Rosario]

Shepard_Commander11 wrote...

I personally do not understand why it needs to be toned down at all. This is a cooperative multiplayer. Who cares if one is better?

Even in a single player adventure game, if one type of character is better than the other [like say in FF if Black Mages were better than Warriors] that would still be a problem. So cooperative or not, balance is still a good thing.

[capn233]

Kronner wrote...

I made no suggestion. I stated the fact that a good Infiltrator kills quickly enough to make any "aggro dump" a non-issue.

What baffles me though is that you are complaining that Tactical Cloak is making the player "invisible". That is never going to change. Cloak will always make the player "invisible", just like Charge is always going to fill your barriers. It's just a fundamental feature.

Cloak is not balanced because it gives damage bonus AND utility. The player is not forced to pick between the two options. He gets both. This should be fixed.

Or is it that the weapon damage bonus is disparate compared to the pure combat class, and the power damage bonus is disparate compared to the pure tech class, and that you get both during a single cooldown?

Personally I think the utility continues to be overblown on here, especially by people who don't seem to actually play the class.  I do not see how you could practically even make a legitimate choice between damage and "invisibility" (which keeps going under the guise of utility for some reason).  People keep making the assumption that invisibility is required to cap objectives and revive teammates... granted it "may" make it easier, but if it was required a game would never be successful unless there was only one infiltrator.

Indeed the real balance issue with cloak is that the damage bonus is incredible at only Rank 4, and you get to double dip power and weapon damage bonus with the same cooldown.  This is why infiltrators can potentially kill everything rapidly, it certainly isn't because they could turn "invisible" for 10s.  When I was in games with greatly disparate scores as an infiltrator, it isn't because I was invisible any amount of time, it was from firing a suped up power and weapon every 3s + another reload canceled shot.  Never did I think "gee if I could only cloak longer..."

This is also why the aggro dumping argument is doubly silly.  Firstly there is hardly any reason for an infiltrator to be cloaked for any period of time for aggro to be dumped.  In the instances that he is (like capping objectives), it is preferable to lose the enemy whether you can turn invisible or not.  Which means if I am playing Soldier and it falls to me to enable the objectives, I am going to lose the enemy and "dump aggro" on my team, which makes sense since this is indeed the sensible way to go about this particular objective.

And as you point out, it will always make you invisible.  So you will always have some utility and you will always have some damage.  We will never be given a choice between pure damage and pure utility.  There just needs to be a sensible tradeoff somewhere in there, which probably means less damage than currently even with a max damage evolution, and or longer cooldown, and likely less duration base with a bit less duration with max damage evolutions.

Modifié par capn233, 25 juin 2012 - 07:28 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Shepard_Commander11 wrote...

I personally do not understand why it needs to be toned down at all. This is a cooperative multiplayer. Who cares if one is better?

It matters for quite a few reasons... which apply whether we're talking about a game that's competitive, co-operative, or single player.  A few of these reasons are replay value, character optimization mental challenges, and variety.

A misconception I've seen a few time on these forums is that balance promotes uniformity (e.g. "why not just give everyone the same gun" and other such silliness).  This simply isn't true.  The argument is rather like saying that items that are in the same price range must be similar items.  The only area that balance seeks some degree of uniformity is in incentivization to use a choice, and choices can be distinct while still being comparably desirable.  Variation in general exists independently of balance.  However, balance causes differences to stand out and become more meaningful.  Without balance, a few strategies rise to the top of the metagame and render other options as trivial curiosities rather than as meaningful alternative ways to approach the challenges of a game.  With balance, a greater variety of playstyles are relevant to conquering the challenges of the game, each offering unique benefits and tradeoffs and different competitively viable styles of gameplay.

Another reason balance matters is because of an old and basic aspect of the fun formula for the RPG genre in general... making optimization choices when building a character.  Really, when people are talking about a video game having "RPG elements" this is usually what they mean.  You build a character who makes build choices and gathers gear or experience to become progressively more powerful.   Anyways,  part of the reason this is fun for many RPG fans is because optimizing a character is (potentially) an interesting mental challenge.  However, this challenge is dependant on meaningful choices existing in the character building framework.  If one competing option is clearly better than another, (such as Tactical Cloak Evolution 1 Duration vs Evolution 2 Damage) these meaningful choices are not, they are obvious and trivial.  When you can feel the indecision between two options, that's balance, right there.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 25 juin 2012 - 07:36 .

[Kronner]

capn233 wrote...
Or is it that the weapon damage bonus is disparate compared to the pure combat class, and the power damage bonus is disparate compared to the pure tech class, and that you get both during a single cooldown?

 

Yes, but I focus on things that can actually be changed with simple .ini tweaks. Cloak CD mechanic cannot be changed without a patch. A patch just for changing Cloak is extremely unlikely and would likely introduce numerous new bugs, given BWs history.

capn233 wrote... 
Personally I think the utility continues to be overblown on here, especially by people who don't seem to actually play the class.  I do not see how you could practically even make a legitimate choice between damage and "invisibility" (which keeps going under the guise of utility for some reason).  People keep making the assumption that invisibility is required to cap objectives and revive teammates... granted it "may" make it easier, but if it was required a game would never be successful unless there was only one infiltrator.

Indeed the real balance issue with cloak is that the damage bonus is incredible at only Rank 4, and you get to double dip power and weapon damage bonus with the same cooldown.  This is why infiltrators can potentially kill everything rapidly, it certainly isn't because they could turn "invisible" for 10s.  When I was in games with greatly disparate scores as an infiltrator, it isn't because I was invisible any amount of time, it was from firing a suped up power and weapon every 3s + another reload canceled shot.  Never did I think "gee if I could only cloak longer..." 

  

It is not only about objectives. If your damage specced Cloak had maximum duration of just over 5 seconds, you would see the difference in the game. Now you get the damage and 11+s of invisibility with no points invested in the Duration perk so obviously you have no problem with it at the moment. It is about maneuvering too.

Modifié par Kronner, 25 juin 2012 - 07:34 .

[nicethugbert]

Kronner wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
Having to rely on magical skill presumably held by the tinest percentage of players to resolve the unfairness of aggro dump means no resolution is available by your suggestion.

I made no suggestion. I stated the fact that a good Infiltrator kills quickly enough to make any "aggro dump" a non-issue.

What baffles me though is that you are complaining that Tactical Cloak is making the player "invisible". That is never going to change. Cloak will always make the player "invisible", just like Charge is always going to fill your barriers. It's just a fundamental feature.

Cloak is not balanced because it gives damage bonus AND utility. The player is not forced to pick between the two options. He gets both. This should be fixed.

No, that's an opinion.  I could opine that a good infiltrator is one that does 500 dps, or 1000, or a trillion.  The dividing line between good and bad is a matter of opinion, not fact.

If it is true that TC will always make the player "invisible" and that the problem with TC is that it gives damage bonus and utility then what you are saying is that TC will be nerfed by making the player choose between "invisible" and damage because "invisible" is the utility aspect of TC which you said would never change.

[Bfler]

All the Infiltrator threads remind me somehow of the Demon Hunter threads in the Diablo 3 forum

Modifié par Bfler, 25 juin 2012 - 07:37 .

[Kronner]

nicethugbert wrote...
No, that's an opinion.  I could opine that a good infiltrator is one that does 500 dps, or 1000, or a trillion.  The dividing line between good and bad is a matter of opinion, not fact.

 

What's opinion, that a good player plays efficiently? That's a fact.

nicethugbert wrote... 
If it is true that TC will always make the player "invisible" and that the problem with TC is that it gives damage bonus and utility then what you are saying is that TC will be nerfed by making the player choose between "invisible" and damage because "invisible" is the utility aspect of TC which you said would never change.

I never said anything like that. You are basically complaining that water is wet.

[GodlessPaladin]

nicethugbert wrote...

Kronner wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...
Having to rely on magical skill presumably held by the tinest percentage of players to resolve the unfairness of aggro dump means no resolution is available by your suggestion.

I made no suggestion. I stated the fact that a good Infiltrator kills quickly enough to make any "aggro dump" a non-issue.

What baffles me though is that you are complaining that Tactical Cloak is making the player "invisible". That is never going to change. Cloak will always make the player "invisible", just like Charge is always going to fill your barriers. It's just a fundamental feature.

Cloak is not balanced because it gives damage bonus AND utility. The player is not forced to pick between the two options. He gets both. This should be fixed.

No, that's an opinion.  I could opine that a good infiltrator is one that does 500 dps, or 1000, or a trillion.  The dividing line between good and bad is a matter of opinion, not fact.

  What you're talking about is more an issue of contextual definition, not some silly dichotomy of opinion vs fact. 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 25 juin 2012 - 07:48 .

[Seifer006]

Ektogamut wrote...

Shepard_Commander11 wrote...

I personally do not understand why it needs to be toned down at all. This is a cooperative multiplayer. Who cares if one is better?

FAQ in another thread.

http://social.biowar...8909/1#12648929

dang......wish Ive seen this earlier

[SavagelyEpic]

GodlessPaladin wrote...


One argument I've seen is that Infiltrators are popular because people like sniper rifles.  Well, there is no "Assault Rifle" class.  There is no "Heavy Pistol" class.  There is no "SMG" class.  There is no "Shotgun" class.  Each of these weapon groups have a number of options that members of every class can find useful.  Heck, even Infiltrators make great use of all of these weapon categories.  But then there is a sniper rifle class.  This isn't a boon for sniper rifle lovers... it's the exact opposite.  It drastically narrows the range of competitively viable options for players who enjoy sniper rifles to one out of six classes.   Some sniper fans have tried to make sniper rifles work for other classes but they just don't do well and the community laughs at the notion of Asari snipers.  If it wasn't for Tactical Cloak's enormous Sniper Rifle multiplier, sniper rifles could be brought up to speed and made into more competitive options for every class, really opening up the options for that category of weapons.

Exactly, I love sniper rifles, but using infiltrators? Not so much. I'd just be happy with another soldier class with the Turian Veteran power but with AR instead of Marksman- Even that would make sniping semi-viable on a soldier. I kind of really want Turian Veteran+AR.

[PluralAces]

This game is basically competitive co-op lol

[greghorvath]

GodlessPaladin wrote...
The irony is that greghorvath's posts could be considered spam by the description he quoted (taking existing discussions off of the intended topic)

Hmmm.... Derailing a thread that is the umpteenth thread on a subject, ergo spam, with spam of a different kind

This is too philosophical for me to handle...

Next Greg will say that my balance thread should be closed because people have suggested balance suggestions before, or that my gameplay video threads should be closed because people have posted solos / speedruns before. 

You are wrong there, as I would close said threads for completely different reasons. Luckily for those without enough humility to post in related threads created earlier BW moderators are much more tolerant than I am. 

But to not be completely off topic. Yes, the infiltrator is very good everywhere. Except in Bronze and Silver, where AoE characters destroy everything before the infilly can take aim. But I really hope BW does nerf TC so balance whiners can find some new topic to "amuse" the community with. 

Modifié par greghorvath, 25 juin 2012 - 08:45 .

[capn233]

Kronner wrote...

Yes, but I focus on things that can actually be changed with simple .ini tweaks. Cloak CD mechanic cannot be changed without a patch. A patch just for changing Cloak is extremely unlikely and would likely introduce numerous new bugs, given BWs history.

You can very easily rectify part of that by modifying the general purpose damage bonus, which is probably the biggest issue with a cloak that allows you to fire a power and a weapon at the same time, and do it every 3s.

It is not only about objectives. If your damage specced Cloak had maximum duration of just over 5 seconds, you would see the difference in the game. Now you get the damage and 11+s of invisibility with no points invested in the Duration perk so obviously you have no problem with it at the moment. It is about maneuvering too.

I am still going to have to disagree here.  You yourself are of the opinion that a "good" infiltrator can kill things rapidly enough that aggro dump isn't a problem, and on the flip side what is also true is that a killing machine infiltrator can kill most targets or groups of targets quickly enough that maneuvering is also not something that needs to be done on any regular basis except to find more targets.

Even so, it takes something like 16s maybe maximum to cross the largest map.  Indeed even if you reduce base cloak to 5s you still are getting more than enough "utility" to perform similarl, at least in a team game, and maneuver a fair distance.  At least assuming that you apply 5% more strategy.  In SP or in a solo game the duration cut will hurt more.  I do not think that a choice between 5s and the best damage bonuses in the game vs 11s invisibility and ok bonuses is really going to make anyone jump to duration.  Nor do I think it will affect the disparity in killing speed in a game with a good infiltrator and regular players of other classes in a game if the infiltrator still has similar damage boost at Rank 4 but only 5s invisibility time.

Modifié par capn233, 25 juin 2012 - 08:11 .