297 réponses à ce sujet

[A Wild Snorlax]

neteng101 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

As they currently stand, Infiltrators do it all.

Nope.  They sure can't tank.  If you're gonna try to stand up under fire then you have to play a tank class, which is where Sentinels with Tech Armor, Krogans with Barrier, Vorcha with health regeneration shine.

And Infiltrators suck at crowd control too.  You either kill the enemy first or you're dead.  Nerfing them will just negate the only real survivability option they have ie. kill, or be killed.

You're being disingeneous trying to spout your own agenda again here, and obviously painting a one sided view.

Btw - adepts are the pistol class, and they should remain that way.  Too many adept wannabe snipers as it is already.  ARs and SMGs need a good look at, but pistols, shotguns and snipers are all fine.  And that Krysae has so many bugs and is such a horrible weapon to actually play with, that I really pity anyone using it more than envy them.

Salarian with points in fitness and rank 6 ed armor boost can tank more than most classes on the game actually.

With regards to the krysae, you're doing it wrong sorry.

[Adhok42]

Well written and difficult to make a rebuttal against but I'm going to have to try anyway because your title isn't true in the slightest from my own play.

As an FQI dedicated to sniping, that particular build requires me to maximize my damage output so I end up sacrificing your sticky grenade "traps" in favor of being able to Snipe and kill Shock Troops and Bosses effectively as is my role. My sabotage is specc'ed more for Synthetic controlling mayhem meaning Sabotage is not as effective against organics. Since Quarian's have lower health but higher shields and shields tend to get eaten quick then I need to spec into fitness to even remain alive. The QD has all sorts of passives I need for survivability and maximizing that damage spike.

So I can't "do it all" as you claim. My CC is minimal at best and pretty much requires there be synthetics to turn on my enemies if I want to keep my Sniping "Boss Killer" role. It would require me to pair up with another infiltrator like the Claymore GI to wipe groups or one of the Debuffers in order to get more out of my damage since "Tech Damage" doesn't mean "Sniper Rifle Shots".

I also have no shield stripping ability save carrying a sidearm made for that. (Tempest is my Shield Stripper of choice.) Leaves me no choice but to ether switch weapons or carry an SR that can beat the shield gate. (Mantis user and showing no sign of stopping.)

Hate to sound like a broken record but without the damage increase from Tactical Cloak my build is worthless. I'd have to spec more heavily into the Saboteur role people keep thinking Infiltrators should only be doing. ("Shouldn't Infiltrators INFILTRATE?" I keep hearing.)

The human soldier comes close to Shock Troop popping with the AR damage increase with a Mantis but that's about as close to the Sniper Role I've got going as one can get. The others need to apply a debuff of sorts enemies before they're any good. Infiltrators can do a little debuffing but buffing themselves is where they make up that damage.

[Pitznik]

neteng101 wrote...


Nope.  They sure can't tank.  If you're gonna try to stand up under fire then you have to play a tank class, which is where Sentinels with Tech Armor, Krogans with Barrier, Vorcha with health regeneration shine.

There is no tanking in ME3, there is only surviving long enough to kill enemies. Infiltrators are GREAT at surviving - TC + race specific tools like wallhack, energy drain, etc. They also have to survive less, because they kill faster.

[-Event-Horizon-]

Wow, i guess i was wrong, rational does exist on the forums I grow tired of cynicism circling around a TC nerf, it’s for the better of the game.

[Edalborez]

neteng101 wrote...

Nope.  They sure can't tank.  If you're gonna try to stand up under fire then you have to play a tank class, which is where Sentinels with Tech Armor, Krogans with Barrier, Vorcha with health regeneration shine.

And Infiltrators suck at crowd control too.  You either kill the enemy first or you're dead.  Nerfing them will just negate the only real survivability option they have ie. kill, or be killed.

What, are you tanking with your face? There's cover for a reason. Even "tank" classes don't stand in the open. Best defense is a good offense.

Tell GI, SI, and QMI that they suck at CC.

Modifié par Edalborez, 22 juin 2012 - 03:21 .

[GodlessPaladin]

neteng101 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

As they currently stand, Infiltrators do it all.

Nope.  They sure can't tank.

Salarian Infiltrators certainly can.

But it's actually worse than that.  On an all-infiltrator team you can manipulate aggro effortlessly, putting it on whoever you want at any given time, and every player on the team has excellent survivability.  Who needs tanks when you've got that kind of aggro control and survivability?  Nevermind the incredible crowd control and debuffs that Infiltrators bring to the table to cripple any attempt at offense by the enemy, making even that rather unnecessary.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 03:25 .

[audicdm]

My suggestions were similar to yours, GodlessPaladin. I actually had 2 different suggestions but I'll give the short version of my 1st one. Even without ANY damage bonus, TC has too many advantages to ignore when making the actual perks of the ability.

Rank 1 TC: Damage +10% (maybe 20% but it is rank 1 of an amazing ability); TC duration 5 sec; Min TC cooldown ~6 secs
Rank 2-3 TC: same (ends with TC duration at ~6.5 secs)
Rank 4 TC duration to 12 sec OR: Damage +20% (maybe 30%) with at least a 2-3 second base cooldown penalty
Rank 5 TC: Recharge +20% OR: Melee +50%
Rank 6 TC: Fire 1 power OR + 20-30% sniper.

Rank 6: Either way, make the TC bonus time after decloak short enough to where you can get up to 1 shot with the addl sniper damage (as most players currently take the sniper damage and fire Debuff PM/ability and immediately fire all their shots still getting the bonus for 2-3 shots) and ~2 shots when fired normally/or with the use 1 power ability.

This still allows people to be snipers, but not spam the insanely high cloaked DPS and require more planned/thought out "tactical" use of TC (with a cooldown of 8-10+ secs). Or if you're less DPS oriented/skilled/spatially aware or just more of a team player, you still get a slight boost to damage (15-20%) with no cooldown penalty but are able to Cap Objectives and Rez teammates with ease.

It would also encourage use of lighter weapons to save cooldown so you're not joining lobbies with 2-3 Infiltrators with Krysaes (cuz I know most of us have been there).

[Arppis]

Well they don't have biotics.

So they aren't jack of all trades. But I am speaking past what you ment.

Modifié par Arppis, 22 juin 2012 - 03:29 .

[Geist.H]

Nope. They sure can't tank

Infiltrators don't need to tank, I play all of them with no Fitness at all except 4th Melee damage perk for my Talon/CQC Quarian Infiltrator.

Proxi / Arc Nade / Energy Drain / Sabotage / GPS spam destroys lesser enemies. For bosses, you can humiliate them in one clip and a half with the hurricane (mine is III) or Reegar or you can grab a claymore and kill them a bit slower but ONOK everything else.

Salarian with points in fitness and rank 6 ed armor boost can tank more than most classes on the game actually.

With regards to the krysae, you're doing it wrong sorry.

Agreed, way to many people are completely carried by the current state of the class and feel the nerf coming like a junky realizing he won't get his next fix.

Modifié par Geist.H, 22 juin 2012 - 03:26 .

[GodlessPaladin]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...
Right, so GI with Hunter Mode are the problem, not Infiltrators as a whole.

Nope.  I could just as easily give examples with other Infiltrator classes.  For example, Male Quarian Infiltrators can easily lock down and power through any opposition while carrying the pizza with Arc Grenades, scout out enemies with Tactical Scan to calculate an optimal route, and like every Infiltrator they can effortlessly sprint across the entire map to grab the pizza to begin with.

[cory257383]

Honestly despite my best efforts *and will continue too* I am bracing for a rank 4 damage nerf from 40-20%. I would find this unfortunate but acceptable.

[UKStory135]

BoomDynamite wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

All 4 objectives? Really? When TC is one of the 2 powers that can't be used when carrying the pizza?

Geth Infiltrators are rivalled only by Drell Adepts in pizza objectives.

Vorcha can be more durable and move faster than both at the same time (Full movement speed Bloodlust is 30% extra mobility.)

A Kroguard can soak up a bunch of damage.  The Nova guard can nova cancel the whole trip and be completely invincible. www.youtube.com/watch

[cronshaw]

Very good post.
I think part of the problem is that not enough thought was given to the differences between SP and MP gameplay when the infiltrator and tactical cloak specifically was ported over into MP. I feel like in the SP campaign a boost to TCs duration is a useful evolution. Conversely, it is not as useful as a damage boost in MP where 90% of the time you just need to kill stuff as fast as you can. Perhaps the level 4 evolution could be split into a choice: either an additional damage bonus to weapons or a damage bonus to powers instead of a global damage bonus.

[Pitznik]

Arppis wrote...

Well they don't have biotics.

So they aren't jack of all trades. But I am speaking past what you ment.

Biotics aren't a goal in itself, they're a mean to an end, which is: kill enemies! Infiltrators CAN kill enemies.

[neteng101]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

On an all-infiltrator team you can manipulate aggro effortlessly, putting it on whoever you want at any given time, and every player on the team has excellent survivability.

You can do this on a non-infiltrator team too, if people play smart.  There's no magic infiltrators have, this is a total myth about TC.  The enemy will find someone/something to shoot at.  The only thing that makes infiltrators seem more apt at doing this is simply that playing the class trains you to go run off at times...  while others just continue blindly firing away till they're dead.  And then they complain all the aggro was on them...  uh yeah, go figure.

You're shooting at something and you don't expect it to retaliate?

Survivability in this game is about co-op play when they're more than 1 player on the field, and everyone working together.  That is far more essential than any single power.

Funny you should mention the Salarian.  Of the top 3 infiltrators (before the recent pack), two have already seen a nerf.  Geth and Quarian female.  The Salarian is the only one left untouched.  The QMI is a beast with arc grenades.  Yet people are focusing on TC, and not those specific abilities (Energy Drain/Arc Grenades).

And it seems like TC is only an issue really with the Krysae.

So all this talk about TC is totally misguided.  Infiltrators (some) have already been nerfed too.  Including the almighty GI.

Modifié par neteng101, 22 juin 2012 - 03:33 .

[GodlessPaladin]

UKStory135 wrote...

BoomDynamite wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

All 4 objectives? Really? When TC is one of the 2 powers that can't be used when carrying the pizza?

Geth Infiltrators are rivalled only by Drell Adepts in pizza objectives.

Vorcha can be more durable and move faster than both at the same time (Full movement speed Bloodlust is 30% extra mobility.)

A Kroguard can soak up a bunch of damage.  The Nova guard can nova cancel the whole trip and be completely invincible. www.youtube.com/watch

A fair point.  Edited to say "rivalled only by the likes of Drell Adepts."  Vorcha and nova cancel abuse falls into that category.

[Arppis]

Pitznik wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Well they don't have biotics.

So they aren't jack of all trades. But I am speaking past what you ment.

Biotics aren't a goal in itself, they're a mean to an end, which is: kill enemies! Infiltrators CAN kill enemies.

Usualy when people talk about "Jack of all trades", it really means professions, example: Bard in D&D can, do combat, magic and thievery. Here it would be Combat, Tech and Biotics.

That is what I ment with it. But as I said, the OP ment something else with it. And every class can kill enemies.

Modifié par Arppis, 22 juin 2012 - 03:35 .

[Kalas Magnus]

The GI will still be top infiltrator after this supposed nerf. Hunter mode just gives him an incredible buff with guns so even if the rest are dropped a tier he will still dominate gold. His powers work together so well he can take another nerf.

[Tankcommander]

Hmm...I might agree with nerfing the damage a bit throughout, and I'm definitely for making snipers and weapon in general better on other classes.

I'm not of the opinion the Infiltrator really needs nerfing tho. I think Soldiers need better weapon DPS, Sentinels need more survivability, and Engineers need a tech buff. The reason you don't see them in gold is because they are a poor alternative to an Adept or Infiltrator. Nerfing the Infiltrator won't help the main issue, it will just make it harder to play Gold with an Infiltrator.

[Doc-Jek]

Make infiltrators uncloak when getting the x4 objective things, unless you choose the evolution that makes you last longer in cloak? That seems to force them to choose utility vs DPS

[GodlessPaladin]

Arppis wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Well they don't have biotics.

So they aren't jack of all trades. But I am speaking past what you ment.

Biotics aren't a goal in itself, they're a mean to an end, which is: kill enemies! Infiltrators CAN kill enemies.

Usualy when people talk about "Jack of all trades", it really means professions, example: Bard in D&D can, do combat, magic and thievery. Here it would be Combat, Tech and Biotics.

That is what I ment with it. But as I said, the OP ment something else with it. And every class can kill enemies.

The funny thing is that in D&D (at least in 3.5e), Bards weren't actually very good at being jacks of all trades... Clerics and Druids were much better at it.  Bards really had to specialize in a specific field if they wanted to genuinely shine.  There were the "fights better than a Fighter" bard builds (like Song of the White Raven bards) and the "casts spells better than a Sorcerer" bard builds (like Sublime Chord / War Weaver bards), but if you wanted to do everything (stabbing things, healing things, blowing up things, having utility for various things, buffing or debuffing or controlling things, sneaking around, et cetera, all done very well on just one character) well you were better off grabbing a Cleric or a Druid.  "CoDzilla" as it was known back on the WotC boards was kinda like the Infiltrator of 3.5e.

...But back on topic...

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 03:50 .

[UKStory135]

cory257383 wrote...

Honestly despite my best efforts *and will continue too* I am bracing for a rank 4 damage nerf from 40-20%. I would find this unfortunate but acceptable.

I would be happy if they nerfed rank 4, buffed all SR's and left evo 6 alone.  I think that the Damage Bonus on TC for Infiltrators using Shotguns should be the same, but not more, than what sodiers get with AR. 

As far as any balancing for SR's go: if you are balancing for Silver, then they are about right. Sniper Rifles in general do not scale to difficulty very well in any game.  That is especially true in this game.  A Infiltrator with the Valiant can kill amazingly fast on bronze, but the same infiltrator would need 3 cloak cycles just to kill a pyro on gold

[Cyrax86]

i like how you never mention any of the disadvantages of the Infiltrator. /s
As for GI and TC
Hunter Mode - turns you into a glass cannon by cutting shields in half. The range of hunter vision has already been decreased. "Hunter Mode gives movement bonuses, which helps with carry objectives", but you can't use TC, meaning your just going to get dropped every few seconds.
Tactical Cloak - people don't understand that TC doesn't work on every enemy(mainly bosses). TC makes Infiltrator the perfect medic, BS, if wearing TC and you brush up against someone the enemy will try to melee you or shoot in your general area, if you try to revive someone that died in a crowd or in front of a boss you'll lose your TC and given the Infiltrator low H/S your going to die the second after you lose your TC. "The TC gives a Infiltrator high weapon DPS", considering an Infiltrators only means of attack are weapons(snipers),

"But sabotage", the power that has strong effects on geth and almost useless against other enemies, "Shield Drain is strong against bosses", the enemy that an Infiltrator is supposed to target first and be its primary focus. "Tactical Scan it weakens it to team damage", Warp does the same thing but to a lesser extent. "Still it can show you enemy locations", and Warp can cause BE and take out entire groups(it'll even give a KS). "Cryo blast it freezes enemy or enemies" so does Stasis.
With the exception of TC/TS none of these powers are exclusive to Infiltrator. I would go on but, i grow bored of this.

[GodlessPaladin]

Cyrax86 wrote...
Hunter Mode - turns you into a glass cannon by cutting shields in half. The range of hunter vision has already been decreased. "Hunter Mode gives movement bonuses, which helps with carry objectives", but you can't use TC, meaning your just going to get dropped every few seconds.

  Except Geth aren't made of glass, they're highly survivable due to their tool set.  Survivability isn't just about health/shield numbers, you need to take into account a class's tools for preventing damage.

Tactical Cloak - people don't understand that TC doesn't work on every enemy(mainly bosses). TC makes Infiltrator the perfect medic, BS, if wearing TC and you brush up against someone the enemy will try to melee you or shoot in your general area, if you try to revive someone that died in a crowd or in front of a boss you'll lose your TC and given the Infiltrator low H/S your going to die the second after you lose your TC. "The TC gives a Infiltrator high weapon DPS", considering an Infiltrators only means of attack are weapons(snipers),

   LOL @ the only means of attack being snipers.  You just dashed anything resembling credibility right there.

"But sabotage", the power that has strong effects on geth and almost useless against other enemies, "Shield Drain is strong against bosses", the enemy that an Infiltrator is supposed to target first and be its primary focus. "Tactical Scan it weakens it to team damage", Warp does the same thing but to a lesser extent. "Still it can show you enemy locations", and Warp can cause BE and take out entire groups(it'll even give a KS). "Cryo blast it freezes enemy or enemies" so does Stasis.
With the exception of TC/TS none of these powers are exclusive to Infiltrator. I would go on but, i grow bored of this.

  Who said they were exclusive? 

In fact, a few of the things you put in quotes as if others said them aren't part of my arguments, nor would they be.  For example, I wouldn't say that Energy Drain is good against bosses... I'd advise Proximity Mine instead and have been ever since the Salarian Infiltrator was new on the block.  Instead of attempting to refute my statements, you're essentially talking to yourself.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 03:56 .

[Tankcommander]

-Event-Horizon- wrote...

Wow, I guess i was wrong, rational does exist on the forums I grow tired of cynicism circling around a TC nerf, it’s for the better of the game.

It won't better the game. It will make good infiltrators weaker on gold, and finish off the poor ones. It won't fix the main issue; that Soldiers have weak DPS when they should have great DPS, that Sentinels are overall weak, especially in survivabilty, and that Engineers need some kind of buff. Nerfing the Infiltrator won't help increase the number of those classes in Gold matches; in actuality, it will just increase the number of other gold-worthy classes such as the classic AA, the new Vorcha, or the Phoenix guys.