297 réponses à ce sujet

[neteng101]

UKStory135 wrote...

I would be happy if they nerfed rank 4, buffed all SR's and left evo 6 alone.  I think that the Damage Bonus on TC for Infiltrators using Shotguns should be the same, but not more, than what sodiers get with AR. 

As far as any balancing for SR's go: if you are balancing for Silver, then they are about right. Sniper Rifles in general do not scale to difficulty very well in any game.  That is especially true in this game.  A Infiltrator with the Valiant can kill amazingly fast on bronze, but the same infiltrator would need 3 cloak cycles just to kill a pyro on gold

This
is one of the real issues in the game...  most weapons/powers don't
scale to difficulty very well either.  Its why at the top of the pyramid
you find some things used far more often than others.  Of course it
makes Gold harder, though without much linear progression logic.

AR is not the same as TC...  TC bonus is good for 1-2 shots, AR is good for a whole 7 seconds plus you get auto-reload, shield recharge, damage reduction, etc options on AR.  Arguably, if anything, AR is actually a rather strong power.  And the Human Soldier as a result of this is indeed known to be one of the more playable classes on Gold...  because AR is a really really good power.  If you want to reduce TC to AR damage-wise, then how about giving us some 100% shield boost in return?  Even if its for the quick decloack cycle only.

[GodlessPaladin]

Tankcommander wrote...

-Event-Horizon- wrote...

Wow, I guess i was wrong, rational does exist on the forums I grow tired of cynicism circling around a TC nerf, it’s for the better of the game.

It won't better the game. It will make good infiltrators weaker on gold, and finish off the poor ones. It won't fix the main issue; that Soldiers have weak DPS when they should have great DPS

Stopped there.  Soldiers don't have weak DPS at all.  social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/12535467

That demonstrates Human Soldiers, but Turian Soldiers can kill single targets faster than that and Krogan and Batarian soldiers can easily nuke spawns.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 04:01 .

[Edalborez]

Tankcommander wrote...

It won't better the game. It will make good infiltrators weaker on gold, and finish off the poor ones. It won't fix the main issue; that Soldiers have weak DPS when they should have great DPS, that Sentinels are overall weak, especially in survivabilty, and that Engineers need some kind of buff. Nerfing the Infiltrator won't help increase the number of those classes in Gold matches; in actuality, it will just increase the number of other gold-worthy classes such as the classic AA, the new Vorcha, or the Phoenix guys.

-Good Infiltrators will adapt to the new conditions, poor ones will flock to the next "popular" class.
-You must play with terrible Soldiers, because the Human has very high DPS.
-QME is one of the best crowd-killers in the game.
-Increasing the number of gold-worthy classes is a bad thing?

[Arppis]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Well they don't have biotics.

So they aren't jack of all trades. But I am speaking past what you ment.

Biotics aren't a goal in itself, they're a mean to an end, which is: kill enemies! Infiltrators CAN kill enemies.

Usualy when people talk about "Jack of all trades", it really means professions, example: Bard in D&D can, do combat, magic and thievery. Here it would be Combat, Tech and Biotics.

That is what I ment with it. But as I said, the OP ment something else with it. And every class can kill enemies.

The funny thing is that in D&D (at least in 3.5e), Bards weren't actually very good at being jacks of all trades... Clerics and Druids were much better at it.  Bards really had to specialize in a specific field if they wanted to genuinely shine.  There were the "fights better than a Fighter" bard builds (like Song of the White Raven bards) and the "casts spells better than a Sorcerer" bard builds (like Sublime Chord / War Weaver bards), but if you wanted to do everything (stabbing things, healing things, blowing up things, having utility for various things, buffing or debuffing or controlling things, sneaking around, et cetera, all done very well on just one character) well you were better off grabbing a Cleric or a Druid.  "CoDzilla" as it was known back on the WotC boards was kinda like the Infiltrator of 3.5e.

...But back on topic...

I think the term on Bard just ment that he was proficient in all 3 areas which classes specilize in. After all he wasn't master of any trade. They were just jacks of all trades.

BUT YES, back to topic. 

[Kronner]

Tankcommander wrote...
It won't better the game. It will make good infiltrators weaker on gold, and finish off the poor ones. It won't fix the main issue; that Soldiers have weak DPS when they should have great DPS, that Sentinels are overall weak, especially in survivabilty, and that Engineers need some kind of buff. Nerfing the Infiltrator won't help increase the number of those classes in Gold matches; in actuality, it will just increase the number of other gold-worthy classes such as the classic AA, the new Vorcha, or the Phoenix guys.

Learn to play the game, for your own good. Otherwise you are bound to make other misleading posts like this one.

[The Final Warrior]

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...

As they currently stand, Infiltrators do it all.  They have the damage output of a or Soldier or Adept[/quote]
>implying Soldiers and Adepts do anywhere near as much damage as a 6/6/6/6/0 Gethfiltrator running damage-spec'd Hunter Mode and a Krysae or Widow

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...

- Geth Infiltrator: Sees through walls and provides information to the team. Has a movement speed bonus making them amazing at getting to objectives and carrying pizzas (or wherever they're needed in general). Has Proximity Mine which sets traps, triggers tech burst and fire explosions in a large area, provides excellent crowd control, and debuffs bosses (or entire spawn points) providing a damage boost for everyone.[/quote]
>implying that Gethfiltrators get Hunter Mode for the speed bonus, and not the damage bonus
>implying that the base speed bonus is noticeable when delivering pizzas
>implying that the proper use of Proximity Mine isn't, in fact, direct-fire to apply the "20% extra damage taken" debuff on targets, or outright kill them in combination with Tactical Cloak's blanket +90% damage
>implying that tech bursts are even a noticeable fraction of damage dealt by Infiltrators
>implying that fire explosions ever happen
(Actually, do PMs even count as tech powers?)
(ETA: Pretty sure they don't, or I'd be getting tech kill medals all the damn time.)

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...

- Salarian Infiltrator: Sets up tech bursts and strips shields more effectively than their Salarian Engineer cousin with Energy Drain. Has the same Proximity Mine utility as the Geth Infiltrator.  It's even potentially a tank with a regenerating shield, good crowd control, and a high functional health/shields of 2592 which scales better than most with gear like Cyclonic Modulators or a Stronghold Package.[/quote]
>implying that the best Salarianfiltrator build isn't, in fact, 6/6/6/6/0 because who needs Fitness when you've got Energy Drain

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...

- Female Quarian Infiltrator: [snip]

- Male Quarian Infiltrator: [snip]

- Human Infiltrator: [snip][/quote]
>implying these are even worth playing when you could have a Geth or Salarian Infiltrator
(Okay, admittedly, Humanfiltrators are actually pretty damn good if you spam the hell out of Cryo Blast before or after every cloaked shot you take.)

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...

They're also all great at applying ammo powers.[/quote]
Wut. Ammo powers are (to my knowledge) applied on a per-bullet basis, which means anyone that rolls with a bulletspam gun (e.g., Assault Rifles, SMGs, Indra) is actually more likely to apply bullet effects than someone who rolls a slower firing weapon (such as all the good single-shot Sniper Rifles that a typical Infiltrator will use). Plus, with the amount of alpha strike damage an Infiltrator is likely to do, ammo powers aren't going to be applied because ~one shot, one kill~. Corpses don't get ammo power effects applied to them.

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...

And yet I keep hearing people actually saying that without the full measure of Tactical Cloak, they'd have nothing going for them.[/quote]
They'd lose the one feature that distinguishes them from being a Soldier. An Infiltrator without a Cloak is a Soldier, except squishier, and without Adrenaline Rush.

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...

But that's not even the only issue.  Infiltrators get an entire weapon category, sniper rifles, all to themselves.[/quote]
Oh, please. Am I the only one who's ever seen a Krogan Soldier rolling a Widow X and a Claymore X?

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...

The balance compensating for the 1.4x damage multiplier to sniper rifles available from Tactical Cloak rank 6[/quote]
2.3x, actually. 90% base (1.9x) blanket, and rank 6 gets you another +40% base (1.4x) sniper rifles, for a total of 130% base (2.3x) if you're using a sniper rifle.

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...

One argument I've seen is that Infiltrators are popular because people like sniper rifles.  Well, there is no "Assault Rifle" class.  There is no "Heavy Pistol" class.  There is no "SMG" class.  There is no "Shotgun" class.[/quote]
That's because, aside from Soldiers, Infiltrators, and maybe Sentinels, every class is a Power class. (You could make an argument for how Asari Adepts and Vangaurds are Heavy Pistol classes by abusing Stasis Bubble, but Bubble doesn't work on anything worth doing lots of damage to, and Adepts are better served with Biotic Explosions anyways.)

Turian Soldier (spec'd for weapon stability) is totally a Hurricane class, though.

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...

the community laughs at the notion of Asari snipers.[/quote]
That's because Asari snipers rely on Stasis Bubble as a crutch. Asari snipers don't get mad damage bonuses, so they actually have to aim for the head (whereas a damage spec'd 6/6/6/6/0 Gethfiltrator running Hunter Mode and a Widow X + Extended Barrel V can just quickscope bodyshots to victory). And Stasis Bubble takes time to deploy (due to the whole "hand waving" animation), which means not only does the Asari sniper have to be a better shot (you still have to aim for the head, even if your target's not moving), they're also forced, by the very nature of the bubble sniper tactic, to be the slower shot.

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...

If it wasn't for Tactical Cloak's enormous Sniper Rifle multiplier, sniper rifles could be brought up to speed and made into more competitive options for every class, really opening up the options for that category of weapons.[/quote]
The problem with your argument is that you're too focused on the ridiculous damage bonus that Tactical Cloak provides, without acknowledging all of its other benefits.

Damage spec'd Tactical Cloak lasts long enough (just over 10s) to press a button. That means an Infil can clear the area around a button (easily done with the superior firepower bonus from Tactical Cloak), blitz in, activate Cloak, and start pressing the button. They will be able to activate it unmolested and, in fact, enemies probably won't ever come anywhere near them, meaning they're clear to exit if they're even half-way speedy about it.

Tactical Cloak allows Infils to move around the entire battlefield more-or-less at will, without worrying about silly things like "cover" or "enemy lanes of fire". Break line-of-sight, Cloak, go wherever you need/want to in the next 10s. As long as you don't try to hug the enemy, they'll pretty much not notice your existence.

Tactical Cloak's damage bonus lasts longer than "an instant". I think it's almost like, a whole second? Which means Infils get 1.9x damage bonus to everything for about 1s, 2.3x damage bonus on sniper rifle shots. That's devastating - Proximity Mine + two Krysae shots in that time, if you're a Gethfiltrator and went with the rate of fire bonus on Hunter Mode.

Tactical Cloak's global cooldown supersedes the global cooldown from any other power. Additionally, Tactical Cloak's cooldown is proportional to how long it's been activated. This means that an Infiltrator with a heavy gun (e.g., Widow, Javelin) can pretty much use Tactical Cloak to avoid long cooldowns from power usage (IIRC, Proximity Mine has something like a 6 or 7s CD at 60% weight bonus; whereas Cloak, if activated and then deactivated immediately, has a CD of 3-4s at the same weight bonus; which means using Cloak before firing off Proximity Mine cuts CD nearly by half, and you can still fire your gun and get the Cloak damage bonus).

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...

Now don't get me wrong, I don't want the class to be gutted.  I love Infiltrators and play them frequently, and frankly I'm sure the devs do too.  But let's be honest here, Infiltrators aren't so helpless that they can't stand to take a hit and still dominate the battlefield, and nerfing one class that accomplishes everything in one superb package is a much more practical solution than rewriting the entire rest of the game to accomodate them.[/quote]
Or, alternatively, instead of nerfing a class to the point where it's no longer fun for a majority of players to use, make the other classes as good as the Infiltrator. Or rebalance Gold's damage ratios so that 6/6/6/6/0 Gethfiltrators running Hunter Mode, despite being the squishiest build in existence, aren't also the best for survivability. (Technically, any Infiltrator has superior survivability on Gold, but I just use the Gethfiltrator example to demonstrate the severity.)

-- Griffinhart

Modifié par The Final Warrior, 22 juin 2012 - 04:10 .

[Deathshroud09]

Pitznik wrote...

neteng101 wrote...


Nope.  They sure can't tank.  If you're gonna try to stand up under fire then you have to play a tank class, which is where Sentinels with Tech Armor, Krogans with Barrier, Vorcha with health regeneration shine.

There is no tanking in ME3, there is only surviving long enough to kill enemies. Infiltrators are GREAT at surviving - TC + race specific tools like wallhack, energy drain, etc. They also have to survive less, because they kill faster.

"There is no tanking in ME3" Lol, you obviously havent played with someone able to use a good novaguard 

[TheExile1]

neteng101 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

As they currently stand, Infiltrators do it all.

Nope.  They sure can't tank.  If you're gonna try to stand up under fire then you have to play a tank class, which is where Sentinels with Tech Armor, Krogans with Barrier, Vorcha with health regeneration shine.

And Infiltrators suck at crowd control too.  You either kill the enemy first or you're dead.  Nerfing them will just negate the only real survivability option they have ie. kill, or be killed.

Lol tanking in this game just means you can take two extra bullets. Health hardly matters in this game. Vorcha is the main exception because of their dodge and their regeneration ability and the Krogan vanguard with its immense health and shields and the ability to regenerate shields with biotic charge.

Proximity mines aren't good crowd control? Neither are arc grenades? Nor cyro blast? Right....

Modifié par TheExile1, 22 juin 2012 - 04:13 .

[The Final Warrior]

Deathshroud09 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

neteng101 wrote...


Nope.  They sure can't tank.  If you're gonna try to stand up under fire then you have to play a tank class, which is where Sentinels with Tech Armor, Krogans with Barrier, Vorcha with health regeneration shine.

There is no tanking in ME3, there is only surviving long enough to kill enemies. Infiltrators are GREAT at surviving - TC + race specific tools like wallhack, energy drain, etc. They also have to survive less, because they kill faster.

"There is no tanking in ME3" Lol, you obviously havent played with someone able to use a good novaguard 

That's a great example of not tanking, actually. Novaguards just need to last long enough to Charge to regen Barriers, and in fact, that's how they survive long enough to kill enemies. Ever seen a Novaguard in a situation where they can't Charge (e.g., stunlocked because they got rifle-butted by a Prime, or shot by a Prime, or were in a Prime's explosion, or were poorly spec'd and had a massive weight penalty)? Barriers melt like butter.

ETA: Also, you can't tank an instakill! :v

-- Griffinhart

Modifié par The Final Warrior, 22 juin 2012 - 04:14 .

[tetsutsuru]

I primarilly play a Female Human Infiltrator with a Black Widow.  So, I can't/won't speak for those Salarian Infiltrator "tanking", or Geth Infiltrator domination, etc. comments.  Moreso since, other than the Female Quarian Infiltrator (briefly, just to play with Sabotage against Geth on Gold), I haven't played any other races of the class.

I'm trying to be open-minded here, but I'm having trouble with the OP's suggestion which essentially removes "Sniper Rifle Specialization" from a class that's built around specializing on using Sniper Rifles.  That just makes no sense.

If anything, I'm almost to the point of, "Why not just petition BioWare to retcon the Krysae out of existence?"  It seems to be the catalyst of this whole agenda anyway.  What many here don't realize is that the Infiltrator class already got a painful nerf from ME2 to ME3. Tactical Cloak was incredible in ME2. Shepard can be standing right in front of a pissed-off Krogan thug, activate TC, and he'd instantly be oblivious to Shepard.  In ME3, not so much.  There are times when it doesn't seem to make any damn bit of difference at all.

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 22 juin 2012 - 04:27 .

[GodlessPaladin]

M4v3r1ck2 wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...


- Geth Infiltrator: Sees through walls and provides information to the team. Has a movement speed bonus making them amazing at getting to objectives and carrying pizzas (or wherever they're needed in general). Has Proximity Mine which sets traps, triggers tech burst and fire explosions in a large area, provides excellent crowd control, and debuffs bosses (or entire spawn points) providing a damage boost for everyone.

And yet I keep hearing people actually saying that without the full measure of Tactical Cloak, they'd have nothing going for them. 


One argument I've seen is that Infiltrators are popular because people like sniper rifles.  Well, there is no "Assault Rifle" class.  There is no "Heavy Pistol" class.  There is no "SMG" class.  There is no "Shotgun" class.  Each of these weapon groups have a number of options that members of every class can find useful.  Heck, even Infiltrators make great use of all of these weapon categories.  But then there is a sniper rifle class.  This isn't a boon for sniper rifle lovers... it's the exact opposite.  It drastically narrows the range of competitively viable options for players who enjoy sniper rifles to one out of six classes.   Some sniper fans have tried to make sniper rifles work for other classes but they just don't do well and the community laughs at the notion of Asari snipers.  If it wasn't for Tactical Cloak's enormous Sniper Rifle multiplier, sniper rifles could be brought up to speed and made into more competitive options for every class, really opening up the options for that category of weapons.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't want the class to be gutted.  I love Infiltrators and play them frequently, and frankly I'm sure the devs do too.  But let's be honest here, Infiltrators aren't so helpless that they can't stand to take a hit and still dominate the battlefield, and nerfing one class that accomplishes everything in one superb package is a much more practical solution than rewriting the entire rest of the game to accomodate them.

You make good points Paladin; however, in your list you do not mention the GI melee infiltrator.  This is a character who's actually be viable using mainly melee on Gold.  Do you think this is an easy character to play on the large maps, such as Jade, Goddess or Condor (Condor has a serious lack of cover btw)?  HM will not see that far, but the enemy sure will see you decloak on Heavy Melee and kill you with one bullet.  I'm excluding FBW and FBG because they're tiny and hardly interesting to me as a GI melee character; I don't even enjoy playing those. 

All GI melee is very risky due to the fragility of HM and the shield drain brought about by Heavy Melee, so when people say Infiltrators are never an object or always cloaking to avoid aggro they are incorrect; a melee GI is in the middle of it all, and he is usually the focus of a lot of aggro. 

Additionally, we also use TC to revive and do objectives even though half-way through the timer we decloak, often in front of a ton of enemies.  Thus, unlike what some other players think, we are hardly cowards hiding behind invisibility, and I'm finding more enemies who attack me while I'm in cloak now, so TC isn't as amazing as people think.  Lastly, the turret's shield restore pulse bugs TC, and suddenly, I'm uncloaked.

Some people like melee and enjoy an alternative to the bang bang of the big guns, snipers included.  My point is simple:  GI melee build allows for variety in this game.  I do not use a shotty; I do not use a sniper; I use a handgun that allows me a fast cooldown, and, I melee, and mainly melee.  Yes I can take out several enemies, but the Ravager I take out has swarmers that will kill me due to my lack of shields and low health. Even running on the ooze will kill me after a heavy melee.  But, since this is everyone's game, nerf the Infiltrators and kill off any hope of a melee-oriented class in ME 3. 

I actually think GI melee is a relatively rare example of a character's Fitness tree being fairly balanced with itself.  For most characters, taking shield fitness is a no brainer.  Even for Geth Infiltrators, taking shield fitness (or no fitness) rather than melee fitness is a common choice, and melee builds do not dominate the metagame for Geth Infiltrators as we can see from many competent players such as Sp3c7rE opting not to go for melee fitness on GIs.  As such, I don't think Geth Infiltrator melee is as problematic as many posters make it out to be.   Instead I think that melee fitness for most characters is underpowered and should be buffed for most characters.  My specific suggestions and math for this are detailed in this thread:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/12648909/1#12648929

Remember, when you can feel the indecision between two choices, that's balance, right there.  And I don't think people are feeling the indecision between melee and shield (or no) Fitness on most characters.  So yeah, I definitely support melee buffs for most characters rather than any substantial geth melee nerf.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 04:23 .

[Variasaber]

Sentinels still have better survivability than Infiltrators, who are so squishy I can't even use them.

[Immortal Strife]

Nice thread and well said Op. I have skipped any post that claims that they have a TC balance solution. I'll leave it to Bioware, they are much better at it then you all. I trust Bioware whole heartily when It comes to balance, each week the Game feels more complete, weapons that I never used become viable, and whole classes become more fun. The infiltrator is my most played class and as someone who can fully utilize the class I can safely say the infiltrator class had a nerf coming, the utility and damage is too much.

*I would like to request a buff for Charge/evolution 5/weapon damage, 15% for 3 secs is pathetic.

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 22 juin 2012 - 04:48 .

[GodlessPaladin]

Immortal Strife wrote...
*I would like to request a buff for Charge/evolution 5/weapon damage, 15% for 3 secs is pathetic.

Recommended just that in my balance suggestions thread, actually. 
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/12648909/1#12648929

[Deathshroud09]

The Final Warrior wrote...

Deathshroud09 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

neteng101 wrote...


Nope.  They sure can't tank.  If you're gonna try to stand up under fire then you have to play a tank class, which is where Sentinels with Tech Armor, Krogans with Barrier, Vorcha with health regeneration shine.

There is no tanking in ME3, there is only surviving long enough to kill enemies. Infiltrators are GREAT at surviving - TC + race specific tools like wallhack, energy drain, etc. They also have to survive less, because they kill faster.

"There is no tanking in ME3" Lol, you obviously havent played with someone able to use a good novaguard 

That's a great example of not tanking, actually. Novaguards just need to last long enough to Charge to regen Barriers, and in fact, that's how they survive long enough to kill enemies. Ever seen a Novaguard in a situation where they can't Charge (e.g., stunlocked because they got rifle-butted by a Prime, or shot by a Prime, or were in a Prime's explosion, or were poorly spec'd and had a massive weight penalty)? Barriers melt like butter.

ETA: Also, you can't tank an instakill! :v

-- Griffinhart

A Novaguard is not a "health tank" like the vorcha, or a "shield tank" like the krogan vanguard, its an "invulnerability tank".....i use my power's ability to make me invulnerable for their duration to negate any and all damage taken while using said powers.

With double nova build i can have these "invulnerablility frames" for pretty much my entire power-combo cycle. Yes, instakills are a problem, same with stunlocks.....but i dont try to one man army things. I DONT put out the DPS some other builds can, something i can do though, is take ALL the aggro off of everyone in the match. I rely on the fact that, while i'm keeping the prime's attention, the adepts are priming the target for BE's that i set off every second or so and/or the infiltrator's are able to get their shooting cycle off without being harassed by fire.

As far as i'm aware the definition of a "tank" in a cooperative game such as this means that i take agro, so the damage dealers on my team dont have to. Yes, stunlock can be a nusance, as is the instakills but the enemy usually has to get that lucky shot in to kill me...and if my team is pounding on them while i'm "tanking" i shouldnt have to use my combo long enough for said enemy to get lucky.

Only thing i have ever had a problem "tanking" is a banshee.....but i think pretty much everyone has a problem with them -.-

[The Final Warrior]

Variasaber wrote...

Sentinels still have better survivability than Infiltrators, who are so squishy I can't even use them.

Dodge more, Cloak more, stop standing out in the open (on Gold; cover isn't as critical on Bronze/Silver).

And if you're rolling a Salarianfiltrator, Energy Drain ALL the things (even things without Shields/Barriers, because you'll still cause a stun animation on non-heavies that interrupts firing) (unless you can explode them with Proximity Mine).

-- Griffinhart

[GodlessPaladin]

M4v3r1ck2 wrote...

Thank you for stating this Paladin. It seems people want to ignore the fact that the GI melee build is most likely a bizarre event that was not anticipated, but, for the very few who love a fast, risky, game and are tired and bored of guns, why take away the melee option? One poster says we can "melt entire spawn points." Heavy Melee doesn't do anything to a Guardian let alone take out a big boss in one PM > Heavy Melee, yet people believe this fabrication. One player, a very solid gold player, told me he thought the GI melee was OP too, yet when I asked him if he did it, he said: "No. It's too hard. I can't learn it, and I'm always dying out." The learning curve is steep, and we can't take any AI at all, so our build is: 6/6/6/0/6. We risk a lot to enjoy a melee game. Yet people lump ALL Infiltrators into the same pool. I'd like to ask that people please remember that yes there are those who do create and reinforce the generalizations so many threads discuss, but there are plenty of other Infiltrators who refuse to use the certain controversial weapons, who do not conform to these generalizations, and others who just like melee and have tried melee on every class and found that BW's only option is the high risk, high learning-curve 6/6/6/0/6 of the GI.

Lots of things can melt entire spawns.  Inferno grenades do it, cluster grenades do it, arc grenades do it, biotic explosions do it, proximity mine spam does it... et cetera.  Again, when I look for balance I weigh alternative choices, and I don't think the melee fitness choice carries excessive weight for the Infiltrator (unlike, say, the choice of taking Evolution 2 over Evolution 1 for Tactical Cloak).

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 04:31 .

[Bleachrude]

AreleX wrote...

in summation: bioware designed themselves into a hell of a hole with the infiltrator, and are unwilling to do all the work necessary to bring the other aspects in line, so the answer is simply making it weaker.

the nerf is imminent.

How though do you balance something like tactical cloak versus the signature power of other classes?

Tactical cloak vs Charge vs Tech armour vs Drone/Turret/Decoy

Given the 4 objectives and the goal of the game (kill or be killed), tactical cloak as it stands is still the best option.

Even on Silver or Bronze, the survivability of cloak is superior to the tank ability granted by tech armour. Hell, on Bronze,, tactical cloak is still better than tech armour if you want to do a solo run (and all classes can solo Bronze)

Modifié par Bleachrude, 22 juin 2012 - 04:30 .

[Deathshroud09]

double post

Modifié par Deathshroud09, 22 juin 2012 - 04:34 .

[The Final Warrior]

Deathshroud09 wrote...

The Final Warrior wrote...

Deathshroud09 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

neteng101 wrote...


Nope.  They sure can't tank.  If you're gonna try to stand up under fire then you have to play a tank class, which is where Sentinels with Tech Armor, Krogans with Barrier, Vorcha with health regeneration shine.

There is no tanking in ME3, there is only surviving long enough to kill enemies. Infiltrators are GREAT at surviving - TC + race specific tools like wallhack, energy drain, etc. They also have to survive less, because they kill faster.

"There is no tanking in ME3" Lol, you obviously havent played with someone able to use a good novaguard 

That's a great example of not tanking, actually. Novaguards just need to last long enough to Charge to regen Barriers, and in fact, that's how they survive long enough to kill enemies. Ever seen a Novaguard in a situation where they can't Charge (e.g., stunlocked because they got rifle-butted by a Prime, or shot by a Prime, or were in a Prime's explosion, or were poorly spec'd and had a massive weight penalty)? Barriers melt like butter.

ETA: Also, you can't tank an instakill! :v

-- Griffinhart

A Novaguard is not a "health tank" like the vorcha, or a "shield tank" like the krogan vanguard, its an "invulnerability tank".....i use my power's ability to make me invulnerable for their duration to negate any and all damage taken while using said powers.

With double nova build i can have these "invulnerablility frames" for pretty much my entire power-combo cycle. Yes, instakills are a problem, same with stunlocks.....but i dont try to one man army things. I DONT put out the DPS some other builds can, something i can do though, is take ALL the aggro off of everyone in the match. I rely on the fact that, while i'm keeping the prime's attention, the adepts are priming the target for BE's that i set off every second or so and/or the infiltrator's are able to get their shooting cycle off without being harassed by fire.

As far as i'm aware the definition of a "tank" in a cooperative game such as this means that i take agro, so the damage dealers on my team dont have to. Yes, stunlock can be a nusance, as is the instakills but the enemy usually has to get that lucky shot in to kill me...and if my team is pounding on them while i'm "tanking" i shouldnt have to use my combo long enough for said enemy to get lucky.

But see, Infils don't even have to worry about aggro. Cloak dumps all aggro (assuming you're out of line-of-sight), and then can be converted into a massive alpha strike damage bonus, which means Infils don't care about tank, and do more damage than most (all) classes.

Deathshroud09 wrote...

Only thing i have ever had a problem "tanking" is a banshee.....but i think pretty much everyone has a problem with them -.-

Not true. A team of four Infiltrators focusing fire on a Banshee can drop it inside of 15s the moment it appears on field, and soloing Banshees is actually really easy - keep your distance, and keep shooting. That's all. The Banshee has only two effective tactics on a target at distance: Warp, which can be dodged or blocked with cover; and flash-stepping to close distance, but you can just keep back-pedaling (and shooting), or literally just turn around and run away.

Primes are much harder to deal with than Banshees ever since the patch went up and took away headshots on Primes. I miss the days of being able to three-shot a Prime from full shields to exploding...

(I probably could have pulled it off in two, but I didn't have a Widow X at the time. Actually, I still don't have a Widow X.)

-- Griffinhart

[Joyce_Esther]

I admit, I like sniper rifles.

And I agree being an infiltrator is either kill or be killed.

[Feneckus]

 The thing I hate about infiltrators is that they can carry a Claymore and a Black Widow and they can still spam their powers more often than other classes who share their powers. That's not fair at all.

GIs/SIs can use a proximity mine every 3 seconds, regardless of their loadout, while a Turian Soldier with a Revenant X will have to wait 3.23 seconds if he doesn't spec for weapon weight. And the infiltrators somehow get a 90% damage bonus on top of that. Not to mention that the Turian soldier has to choose between marksman and proximity mine. How is that balanced ?

And grenades need to break cloak. MQIs shouldn't be able to cloak --> tactical scan --> 5 arc grenades --> shoot.