297 réponses à ce sujet

[GodlessPaladin]

Joyce_Esther wrote...

I admit, I like sniper rifles.

  If you like sniper rifles, you should want to see TC rank 4 curbed and a compensating buff to most sniper rifles.  It would make SRs considerably more viable for non-Infiltrators, opening up a host of options for sniper rifle lovers.

[rcolol]

Edalborez wrote...

Tankcommander wrote...

It won't better the game. It will make good infiltrators weaker on gold, and finish off the poor ones. It won't fix the main issue; that Soldiers have weak DPS when they should have great DPS, that Sentinels are overall weak, especially in survivabilty, and that Engineers need some kind of buff. Nerfing the Infiltrator won't help increase the number of those classes in Gold matches; in actuality, it will just increase the number of other gold-worthy classes such as the classic AA, the new Vorcha, or the Phoenix guys.

-Good Infiltrators will adapt to the new conditions, poor ones will flock to the next "popular" class.
-You must play with terrible Soldiers, because the Human has very high DPS.
-QME is one of the best crowd-killers in the game.
-Increasing the number of gold-worthy classes is a bad thing?

This. Try a Human Soldier with Adrenaline Rush using a Harrier, or a Turian solder with Marksman/Hurricane. You get a very high DPS

[cuzIMgood]

Agreed, infiltrators shadow too many other classes making them essentially pointless. Something needs to be done to help balance them out.

[Tankcommander]

MyWhiteNostrils wrote...

Edalborez wrote...

Tankcommander wrote...

It won't better the game. It will make good infiltrators weaker on gold, and finish off the poor ones. It won't fix the main issue; that Soldiers have weak DPS when they should have great DPS, that Sentinels are overall weak, especially in survivabilty, and that Engineers need some kind of buff. Nerfing the Infiltrator won't help increase the number of those classes in Gold matches; in actuality, it will just increase the number of other gold-worthy classes such as the classic AA, the new Vorcha, or the Phoenix guys.

-Good Infiltrators will adapt to the new conditions, poor ones will flock to the next "popular" class.
-You must play with terrible Soldiers, because the Human has very high DPS.
-QME is one of the best crowd-killers in the game.
-Increasing the number of gold-worthy classes is a bad thing?

This. Try a Human Soldier with Adrenaline Rush using a Harrier, or a Turian solder with Marksman/Hurricane. You get a very high DPS

Increasing the number of gold worthy classes is the goal, so you completely misunderstood there. I agree good infils will adapt, but that still doesn't change the fact it makes them weaker. That point still stands, and helps no one, except those that have an inkling against good infiltrators.

I wasn't counting the Rebellion classes. All of them are gold worthy, in some cases gold-easy. Regarding the Soldier, however, I use both Batarian and Vorcha to good effect on gold. I've also brought a Krogan Soldier out of gold with over 75k multiple times, but it is an annoying experience more than anything. Vorcha makes Reapers and Cerberus easy, and Batarian would be awesome if he didn't get stunned so much. The Krogan is plain terrible, and I've never seen a Human or Turian that was even halfway decent. Think the best one got maybe 40k?

[Cyrax86]

GodlessPaladin
im talking about GI + HM, HM reduces shields and adds a penalty to shield regeneration. Toolset, seriously?

  " LOL @ the only means of attack being snipers.  You just dashed anything resembling credibility right there"
     my apologies i miss wrote(even though you ignored most of what i said), Infiltrators best way of killing enemies is through weapons(a sniper being the best option) removing or reducing damage bonuses turns them into medics that are basic sitting around waiting for the objectives round. for weapons shield drain, sabotage, oveload, cryo blast. are not going to get the Infiltrator many kills or at all.

"In fact, a few of the things you put in quotes as if others said them aren't part of my arguments, nor would they be.  For example, I wouldn't say that Energy Drain is good against bosses... I'd advise Proximity Mine instead and have been ever since the Salarian Infiltrator was new on the block.  Instead of attempting to refute my statements, you're essentially talking to yourself. "
People crying about the Infiltrator usually are crying about the same thing, yet you are only listing the advantages of being a Infiltrator and not the disadvantages, im only talking to myself if you ignored points, which you did

Modifié par Cyrax86, 22 juin 2012 - 05:20 .

[xcrunr1647]

cory257383 wrote...

And i agree with your master of all statement hence why I consider them the keystone but its their responsibility to win the game when things go to ****.

Wait...they're the keystone why? Why is it that a team of good players can easily complete gold without an infiltrator? Obviously they aren't required to finish gold. 

[Tankcommander]

xcrunr1647 wrote...

cory257383 wrote...

And i agree with your master of all statement hence why I consider them the keystone but its their responsibility to win the game when things go to ****.

Wait...they're the keystone why? Why is it that a team of good players can easily complete gold without an infiltrator? Obviously they aren't required to finish gold. 

A good biotic duo dominates gold much more effeciently that a team of 4 infiltrators could.

[Geek]

Tankcommander wrote...

xcrunr1647 wrote...

cory257383 wrote...

And i agree with your master of all statement hence why I consider them the keystone but its their responsibility to win the game when things go to ****.

Wait...they're the keystone why? Why is it that a team of good players can easily complete gold without an infiltrator? Obviously they aren't required to finish gold. 

A good biotic duo dominates gold much more effeciently that a team of 4 infiltrators could.

Have you watched the under 10 minute speed run?

[rmccowen]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The funny thing is that in D&D (at least in 3.5e), Bards weren't actually very good at being jacks of all trades...

Fixed that for you. Basically the right prestige class could break the bard, giving it full spellcasting progression, but otherwise they've been a punchline since August 2000.

Clerics and Druids were much better at it.

Fixed that one, too. :innocent:

"CoDzilla" as it was known back on the WotC boards was kinda like the Infiltrator of 3.5e.
...But back on topic...

The thing is, it is on-topic. D&D is a co-operative game, but if there's one class that pushes out other classes (novelty or roleplaying value aside), then that's a problem. The Druid famously has special abilities more powerful than the entire Rogue class--which is a nice analogy to the Infiltrator. Tactical Cloak alone is (at least) a 166% damage bonus to sniper rifles, plus weight management to make a Marskman/Adrenaline Rush Soldier cry into his Ryncol, plus aggro management that no other class gets.

It's fine that it's an effective and unique power, and I don't want it to lose that, but the weight management issue is absurd, and the damage bonus from TC alone is something no other class can match--and I don't think Infiltrators were designed to be the damage-dealers nonpareil.

[GGW KillerTiger]

 Infiltrators can't do biotics so erm yea they aren't masters of all :innocent:

[Tankcommander]

rymoulton wrote...

Tankcommander wrote...

xcrunr1647 wrote...

cory257383 wrote...

And i agree with your master of all statement hence why I consider them the keystone but its their responsibility to win the game when things go to ****.

Wait...they're the keystone why? Why is it that a team of good players can easily complete gold without an infiltrator? Obviously they aren't required to finish gold. 

A good biotic duo dominates gold much more effeciently that a team of 4 infiltrators could.

Have you watched the under 10 minute speed run?

Must we count speed runs? Bioware must balance for the majority of situations, and speed running with good players doesn't really fall into that category. Speed runs are done by people very familiar with the game and very good at it, so you can't base your argument off of that, as they most likely will do very well with any other class as well. I've done a 17 minute run with a friend and two random guys, me PA, friend QME, and the other two AA and SE. We weren't even prepared for it, but the biotic combos and tech bursts did a ton of damage. Had we coordinated I bet we could have done it in much less time.

I'm still trying to find out why people think Infiltrators are so much better, when I find a round with my Phoenix Adept is easier, and that I rarely see good infiltrators in gold. I've got a friend that plays engineer and regularly doubles most random infiltrator's score on gold. I think I've averaged 100k with my PA on double random, which I do believe is a bit higher than my FQI.


EDIT: I'm not opposed to a nerf, but I think we need to be careful. I wish you could score criticals on bosses, and if you could I think the best change would be to make the damage bonuses apply only to criticals. Rewards good aiming, and allows good infiltrators to keep their power. Perhaps it still doesn't solve the really strong infiltrator problem, but there's that. Again, I rarely see infiltrators in my pub games that score over 50k, so from my perspective it seems that the nerf (which I feel will overcompensate) will outright ruin the majority of people trying to use the class.

I really am of the opinion that the good infiltrators are just really good players, and stand out so much because of the way TC works. Good shooting, good weapons, invisibilty, and damage bonus work wonders together. The impression of those that are very good at the game but like to play infiltrator due to the playstyle skew the perspective I feel. There seems to me to be a draw to the class for good players, since it rewards solid aim and good tactics.

Modifié par Tankcommander, 22 juin 2012 - 05:49 .

[cuzIMgood]

GGW KillerTiger wrote...

 Infiltrators can't do biotics so erm yea they aren't masters of all :innocent:

Doesn't really matter when they can put out as much dps as biotics.

[tetsutsuru]

GGW KillerTiger wrote...

Infiltrators can't do biotics so erm yea they aren't masters of all

cuzIMgood wrote...

Doesn't really matter when they can put out as much dps as biotics.

Right.  Because ALL shots are headshots with headshot bonus damage, and Infiltrators NEVER miss.

[GodlessPaladin]

tetsutsuru wrote...
Right.  Because ALL shots are headshots with headshot bonus damage, and Infiltrators NEVER miss.

Why do you need headshots?  Black Widow hits the shield gate with body shots.  Claymore kills with body shoots.  Krysae doesn't get a headshot bonus and one-shots multiple shielded mobs.  And of course then there's the very potent powers Infiltrators have which don't require headshots either.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 05:50 .

[GaryMaple]

You know what never gets old?
300000000 Infiltrator threads constantly cycling through page 1.

[tetsutsuru]

tetsutsuru wrote...
Right. Because ALL shots are headshots with headshot bonus damage, and Infiltrators NEVER miss.

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Why do you need headshots?  Black Widow hits the shield gate with body shots.  Claymore kills with body shoots.  Krysae doesn't get a headshot bonus and one-shots multiple shielded mobs.  And of course then there's the very potent powers Infiltrators have which don't require headshots either.

That's taking my post out of the context to which it was responding to.

[RGFrog]

GodlessPaladin wrote...
Stuff... read OP...

Now don't get me wrong, I don't want the class to be gutted.  I love Infiltrators and play them frequently, and frankly I'm sure the devs do too.  But let's be honest here, Infiltrators aren't so helpless that they can't stand to take a hit and still dominate the battlefield, and nerfing one class that accomplishes everything in one superb package is a much more practical solution than rewriting the entire rest of the game to accomodate them.

I disagree with this last line. The changes are relatively easy. I could balance all the classes and make each class have a strong suit, different but comparative in usefuleness to the Inf. just by changing the coalesced.bin

That is all that's being done anyway. Stat changes.

The claim they make of it being hard is solely based on what comes after the change: testing.

What they don't seem to get is there's a whole community of testers out there for free and far more likely to find what's working/broken than their in house QC group: PC players.

The only thing that wouldn't work is XBox and Ps3 users feeling butthurt about having to wait. They were that way with ME2 and based on the forum backlashes would be 10x more now, unless, possibly, they knew PC users were crowd testing for BW so that console users wouldn't get non-functioning updates (like ULM and the host of non-working fixes in the last patch).

Modifié par RGFrog, 22 juin 2012 - 06:06 .

[Bolo Xia]

GaryMaple wrote...

You know what never gets old?
300000000 Infiltrator threads constantly cycling through page 1.

this.

most the people complaining about infiltrators must not be able to figure out ther are other class's/race's that can kill just as fast or faster.

i believe it is fear of learning how to play a different character that is spawning all the hate against the class.
i dont use infiltrator because i think the playstyle is boring, cloaking before every shot(s) for 15 to 25 mins is mind numbing for me.

most the games i play there isnt even an infiltrator in the group. the rest of the time when there is one in the group almost never do the disable device objectives.

of course im only basing this off my experience, you know just like all the raving nerf whatever people usually base their claims on 1 game or the few ZOMG Players that are a Chuck Norris clone.

[rcolol]

Tankcommander wrote...

MyWhiteNostrils wrote...

Edalborez wrote...

Tankcommander wrote...

It won't better the game. It will make good infiltrators weaker on gold, and finish off the poor ones. It won't fix the main issue; that Soldiers have weak DPS when they should have great DPS, that Sentinels are overall weak, especially in survivabilty, and that Engineers need some kind of buff. Nerfing the Infiltrator won't help increase the number of those classes in Gold matches; in actuality, it will just increase the number of other gold-worthy classes such as the classic AA, the new Vorcha, or the Phoenix guys.

-Good Infiltrators will adapt to the new conditions, poor ones will flock to the next "popular" class.
-You must play with terrible Soldiers, because the Human has very high DPS.
-QME is one of the best crowd-killers in the game.
-Increasing the number of gold-worthy classes is a bad thing?

This. Try a Human Soldier with Adrenaline Rush using a Harrier, or a Turian solder with Marksman/Hurricane. You get a very high DPS

Increasing the number of gold worthy classes is the goal, so you completely misunderstood there. I agree good infils will adapt, but that still doesn't change the fact it makes them weaker. That point still stands, and helps no one, except those that have an inkling against good infiltrators.

I wasn't counting the Rebellion classes. All of them are gold worthy, in some cases gold-easy. Regarding the Soldier, however, I use both Batarian and Vorcha to good effect on gold. I've also brought a Krogan Soldier out of gold with over 75k multiple times, but it is an annoying experience more than anything. Vorcha makes Reapers and Cerberus easy, and Batarian would be awesome if he didn't get stunned so much. The Krogan is plain terrible, and I've never seen a Human or Turian that was even halfway decent. Think the best one got maybe 40k?

You've seen some terrible players, I've seen Turian Soldiers w/ Hurricane go well over 125k many times, and Human Soldiers with AR/Frag grenade spam can deal a lot of damage

[Pitznik]

Deathshroud09 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

neteng101 wrote...


Nope.  They sure can't tank.  If you're gonna try to stand up under fire then you have to play a tank class, which is where Sentinels with Tech Armor, Krogans with Barrier, Vorcha with health regeneration shine.

There is no tanking in ME3, there is only surviving long enough to kill enemies. Infiltrators are GREAT at surviving - TC + race specific tools like wallhack, energy drain, etc. They also have to survive less, because they kill faster.

"There is no tanking in ME3" Lol, you obviously havent played with someone able to use a good novaguard 

You misunderstood me. Tanking in this game doesn't exist because you can avoid taking damage altogether, there is no need for a damage-sponge character who takes enemies' attention. In mmorpgs like WoW most raid encounters require someone to absorb boss's damage and keep his aggro so others can dps, if you try to kite the boss, he will enrage or do some other nasty stuff. In ME3 if you avoid all incoming damage through use of cover or TC, there are no negative consequences. So arguement that "Infiltrator can't tank" is empty, because Infiltrator doesn't need to tank, and team of 4 infiltrators isn't in any way handicapped in that aspect. While there are playstyles based on receiving damage instead of avoiding it, like Novaguard or Kroguard, there is absolutely no requirement to have such character on your team.

[GodlessPaladin]

tetsutsuru wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...
Right. Because ALL shots are headshots with headshot bonus damage, and Infiltrators NEVER miss.

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Why do you need headshots?  Black Widow hits the shield gate with body shots.  Claymore kills with body shoots.  Krysae doesn't get a headshot bonus and one-shots multiple shielded mobs.  And of course then there's the very potent powers Infiltrators have which don't require headshots either.

That's taking my post out of the context to which it was responding to.

The context I see is you responding to a post about Infiltrators doing damage comparable to biotics.

tetsutsuru wrote...

GGW KillerTiger wrote...

Infiltrators can't do biotics so erm yea they aren't masters of all

cuzIMgood wrote...

Doesn't really matter when they can put out as much dps as biotics.

Right.  Because ALL shots are headshots with headshot bonus damage, and Infiltrators NEVER miss.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 06:20 .

[tetsutsuru]

tetsutsuru wrote...

That's taking my post out of the context to which it was responding to.

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The context I see is you responding to a post about Infiltrators doing damage comparable to biotics.

You are correct there. However, if we follow connect-the-dots-logic, your post skips the dot where, for Infiltrators, the bullet has to hit the target before the damage can be dealt. Unless we're talking about Infiltrators with bullets that track targets, Biotics will always more reliably deal more damage than Infiltrators. Even very good shooters, do miss.

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 22 juin 2012 - 06:33 .

[xtorma]

So to create, and keep a class for months that is so obviously op, wouldn't that suggest that the devs either have a poor idea as to how they should balance their own game, or did they not feel it was necessary in the first place.

Paladin. I am sure you have a normal life, job or school, maybe wife, kids etc... why is it you can come up with a balance thread in colaboration with others, that was well recieved by most people and the devs can not. They seem to be reacting instead of being proactive, and that does not bode well for any future this game may have.

[Saaz5555]

Proposed changes are good but infiltrators would still be OP. The damage bonus is just too high. I think that TC damage bonus should be atleast 20% lower and they should slightly buff damage of all sniper rifles to compensate and make them more viable for other classes.