297 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

defleshing wrote...
see that's one i didn't notice . i still find hack to be one of the most powerful overall best powers in this game. my scores didn't go down with my qfi after the nerf. maybe i just don't pay attention. i didn't notice a difference with the geth nerf either. i can still do just as good with both .

Not talking about the Hack, which is semi decent.

What they did was they buffed Backfire and with Tech Vulnerability stacking it was possible to melt organics very quickly with Sabotage all over the place.  Perhaps more ridiculous than playing 4 QFI's vs Geth in the original balance of the game.  Then they ended up reducing Tech Vulnerability to compensate for the Backfire change.

[Javo2357]

Really well thought out, coherent argument OP.

Thanks for posting, I'm sure Infils wont be nerfed as much as others are already fearing but like you said, they certainly can take a slight nerf and still be very useful squadmates.

[kira28]

good post its refreshing to come to forums and see a thread like this instead of the many defending infiltrators and krysaes.

[tetsutsuru]

rymoulton wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

rymoulton wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

But isn't that what defines the Infiltrator:  proficient use of the Sniper Rifle?  There's nothing stopping any other class from packing a sniper rifle on his/her back to the battlefield.  So I'm not quite understanding the use of the word "restriction" in the current context.  Or is the complaint that the Infiltrator class is the one that is restricted to use sniper rifles?  Because that isn't true either.  When I feel like horsing around, I leave my Black Widow and bring the Scorpion.  It's a weapon class that I should receive no bonus on, so I have no reason to expect such.

The same way the Vanguard is defined by Biotic Charge.  It's a class that doesn't really need to take a weapon.  The game mechanic just requires at least 1 equipped.  Why would there be lobbying for a "weapon specialization" for that class?

I'd say tactical cloak is what defines infiltrators. I see as many infiltrators use shotguns as snipers, and a decent amount of pistols.

Tactical Cloak grants bonus damage with sniper rifles, which is where my post's context is coming from.

Sorry if I am misunderstanding your posts. I am aware that tactical cloak grants damage to sniper rifles, as well as granting extra damage to any weapon. Are you suggesting that TC only grant bonus to sniper rifles?

Hey, no worries.  Nothing to be sorry about.  We're good.

Correct.  IIRC, it's a TC rank 6 evolution option that grants a sniper rifle damage bonus.  Which is where my "Infiltrators = proficient snipers" perspective originates.  You are also correct that an evolution of TC grants generic weapon damage bonus (rank 4 option, IIRC).  Which brings me to my earlier question to the OP from a few posts back:  why not just go the route of effecting TC rank 4 to sniper rifles only, instead of revamping Tactical Cloak, turning the Infiltrator class into a Falcon assault rifle?

On a side note, I have a question.  I would appreciate some clarification on the weapon class "restriction" some are talking about here.  Unless I'm playing a different game, there are no weapon restrictions.  Anyone can bring any 2 weapons, at most.  And if it just so happens that you have a class that grants you bonuses with it, great.  If not, you won't be great at it, but you still get to use what you want -- and I'm not seeing a problem there.

In an analogy, just because I buy a Bugatti Veyron, doesn't mean I can lap Top Gear UK's power track at the same time The Stig does with the same car.  Not even close.  Right?

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 22 juin 2012 - 08:38 .

[GodlessPaladin]

xtorma wrote...
Paladin. I am sure you have a normal life, job or school, maybe wife, kids etc... why is it you can come up with a balance thread in colaboration with others, that was well recieved by most people and the devs can not.

*Shrug*

Game design has been a lifelong passion of mine.  I just wish I knew how to go from making mods and pen and paper campaigns and game design articles on the web and such to actually breaking into the industry.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 22 juin 2012 - 08:46 .

[Pitznik]

tetsutsuru wrote...
Correct.  IIRC, it's a TC rank 6 evolution option that grants a sniper rifle damage bonus.  Which is where my "Infiltrators = proficient snipers" perspective originates.  You are also correct that an evolution of TC grants generic weapon damage bonus (rank 4 option, IIRC).  Which brings me to my earlier question to the OP from a few posts back:  why not just go the route of effecting TC rank 4 to sniper rifles only, instead of revamping Tactical Cloak, turning the Infiltrator class into a Falcon assault rifle?

On a side note, I have a question.  I would appreciate some clarification on the weapon class "restriction" some are talking about here.  Unless I'm playing a different game, there are no weapon restrictions.  Anyone can bring any 2 weapons, at most.  And if it just so happens that you have a class that grants you bonuses with it, great.  If not, you won't be great at it, but you still get to use what you want -- and I'm not seeing a problem there.

There are no restrictions, but by making TC affect only SRs you would force Infiltrators to use SRs, because they would be crap with other weapons, while at the same time SRs had to be balanced around Infiltrator TC bonus, so they would be weak on other classes, effectively discouraging SR use for all other classes. You would make Infiltrators viable with just one weapon time, and other classes viable with one weapon type less. Less variety = bad.

Modifié par Pitznik, 22 juin 2012 - 08:44 .

[tetsutsuru]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

xtorma wrote...
Paladin. I am sure you have a normal life, job
or school, maybe wife, kids etc... why is it you can come up with a
balance thread in colaboration with others, that was well recieved by
most people and the devs can not.

*Shrug*

Game design has been a lifelong passion of mine.  I just wish I knew how to go from making mods and pen and paper campaigns and game design articles on the web ad such to actually breaking into the industry.

That's pretty cool.  You *are* sending out your CV to game development studios, yes?

[GodlessPaladin]

tetsutsuru wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

xtorma wrote...
Paladin. I am sure you have a normal life, job
or school, maybe wife, kids etc... why is it you can come up with a
balance thread in colaboration with others, that was well recieved by
most people and the devs can not.

*Shrug*

Game design has been a lifelong passion of mine.  I just wish I knew how to go from making mods and pen and paper campaigns and game design articles on the web ad such to actually breaking into the industry.

That's pretty cool.  You *are* sending out your CV to game development studios, yes?

My CV?  I don't even know what that stands for, so probably not.  Like I said, I'm kinda clueless when it comes to how to actually maneuver through the business world.

[Xaijin]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

All 4 objectives? Really? When TC is one of the 2 powers that can't be used when carrying the pizza?

Geth Infiltrators are rivalled only by Drell Adepts in pizza objectives.  They have an excellent ability to *reach* the pizza using Tactical Cloak to maneuver (or just plain lead off enemies and then give them the slip), and then they can speed to the extraction zone with their movement speed bonus while effortlessly avoiding enemy encounters with the help of their situational awareness via wallhack.

Right, so GI with Hunter Mode are the problem, not Infiltrators as a whole.

Apparently you never played when Salarian infiltrator could waltz the maps with ease. Infs have been mega strong since launch. Whilst the right thing to do is add to the other classes, apparently it's no economically or logistically feasible. (actually I think with weekly updates it is feasible, but that's an argument for another thread)

[tetsutsuru]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

xtorma wrote...
Paladin. I am sure you have a normal life, job
or school, maybe wife, kids etc... why is it you can come up with a
balance thread in colaboration with others, that was well recieved by
most people and the devs can not.

*Shrug*

Game design has been a lifelong passion of mine.  I just wish I knew how to go from making mods and pen and paper campaigns and game design articles on the web ad such to actually breaking into the industry.

That's pretty cool.  You *are* sending out your CV to game development studios, yes?

My CV?  I don't even know what that stands for, so probably not.  Like I said, I'm kinda clueless when it comes to how to actually maneuver through the business world.

Curriculum Vitae = resume.  Sorry about that.

2 ways:

1.  Put together your resume.  It helps if you know someone in a related industry, or better yet - someone you know who works in Human Resources, look your resume over and give you advice.  Go online, search for job openings in game development firms, and send in your application with your resume.
2.  If you know someone who's actually an employee of a software development firm, this will help tremendously.

Essentially, you just need to get an interview, be it phone or in person.  That's the "foot in the door".  After that, it's all up to you.  Good luck!

[nicethugbert]

/signed

And then there is aggro dumping which is unfair.

[RamsenC]

The best way to get a game design job is to have game design experience...so yea. Or work in-house at a developer and get everyone to love you.

[Hakuthehedgehog]

Does anyone know if the following can be made with a change of the .ini files?

Make infiltrators unable to fire a power while under TC unless they use the bonus power evolution and make both cooldowns count, instead of just TC's cooldown.

[tetsutsuru]

Pitznik wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...
Correct.  IIRC, it's a TC rank 6 evolution option that grants a sniper rifle damage bonus.  Which is where my "Infiltrators = proficient snipers" perspective originates.  You are also correct that an evolution of TC grants generic weapon damage bonus (rank 4 option, IIRC).  Which brings me to my earlier question to the OP from a few posts back:  why not just go the route of effecting TC rank 4 to sniper rifles only, instead of revamping Tactical Cloak, turning the Infiltrator class into a Falcon assault rifle?

On a side note, I have a question.  I would appreciate some clarification on the weapon class "restriction" some are talking about here.  Unless I'm playing a different game, there are no weapon restrictions.  Anyone can bring any 2 weapons, at most.  And if it just so happens that you have a class that grants you bonuses with it, great.  If not, you won't be great at it, but you still get to use what you want -- and I'm not seeing a problem there.

There are no restrictions, but by making TC affect only SRs you would force Infiltrators to use SRs, because they would be crap with other weapons, while at the same time SRs had to be balanced around Infiltrator TC bonus, so they would be weak on other classes, effectively discouraging SR use for all other classes. You would make Infiltrators viable with just one weapon time, and other classes viable with one weapon type less. Less variety = bad.

Ah, I see.  Thanks.

But how is that "bad" though?  It would make Infiltrators great with Sniper Rifles, but generic (not necessarilly "bad") with other weapons.  Infiltrator can still cloak, sneak, and have time to line up a shot with the Claymore.  No additional bonus, but for that Infiltrator player who wants to take a Claymore instead of a SR, he/she is welcome to do so.

Soldiers won't necessarilly be granted weapon damage bonuses, but they can be walking turrets, with any weapon, as what their class is about.  Adepts could really care less about weapon damage bonuses, as they are really all about Biotic attacks.

Fact of the matter is, Sniper Rifles are simply a different animal of weapon altogether.  They're not "generic" weapons, like assault rifles, shotguns, SMGs, and pistols.  They can be classified as precision instruments, which require specialized training to use effectively.

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 22 juin 2012 - 09:06 .

[kira28]

i have a feeling bioware will only produce a small damage decrease in rank 4 and 6 of TC that wont at all change the infiltrators damage output.

Im not getting excited about an infiltrator nerf after their balance attempt of the krysae.

[GodlessPaladin]

RamsenC wrote...

The best way to get a game design job is to have game design experience...so yea. Or work in-house at a developer and get everyone to love you.

How does one start "working in-house" or get "game design experience" they can put on a resume without actually being hired by a game design company?  People have told me this before and it just seems like a bit of a Catch-22.

"We won't hire you because you don't have experience."  "You can't get experience because we won't hire you." 

Ah well, I suppose I am getting off topic.  Sorry about that.

[tetsutsuru]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

The best way to get a game design job is to have game design experience...so yea. Or work in-house at a developer and get everyone to love you.

How does one start "working in-house" or get "game design experience" they can put on a resume without actually being hired by a game design company?  People have told me this before and it just seems like a bit of a Catch-22.

"We won't hire you because you don't have experience."  "You can't get experience because we won't hire you." 

Ah well, I suppose I am getting off topic.  Sorry about that.

Oh hey, yeah, that's the BS part of the industry.

An option in that situation is to try for freelance consultant positions.  Small projects.  Part-time.

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 22 juin 2012 - 09:05 .

[gaminazn]

I think the Krysae is the problem.

Hunter mode makes the rank 6 evolution too powerful as well. Add in the new gear and.... I'll admit it, rank 6 can take a 10% hit to bring us back down to pre-Rebellion status.

The Krysae needs a nerf though. Shouldn't explode if you miss. Although that would make knocking enemies out of cover problematic.

Also, the real problem is that engineers don't output a lot of damage and have absolutely no ability to detonate their own tech bursts. Vanguards are.... way too weak for gold. Only the HV as a bio sploder has real damage potential in gold. The Krogaurd needs the bugs to be fixed and then he'd be a pretty fun monster. I think his charge recharge speed should be lower though.

The Phoenix Vanguard is the only truly viable gold vanguard IMO.

The adepts need a little love. Biotics need to connect just as often as bullets. Letting enemies dodge or absorb the damage makes no sense whatsoever. All that does is make sure infiltrators are king.

And sentinels...don't get me started on sentinels...

Soldiers just need a 20% damage buff all around. Either in the passive tree or in their main ability. If they ouput 20% more damage, they would be on par with infiltrators.

I suppose this would all cause power creep though... so we'd need a Platinum difficulty to make it harder for the truly hardcore. However, the truly hardcore already beat the snot out of gold with any class.

[nicethugbert]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

The best way to get a game design job is to have game design experience...so yea. Or work in-house at a developer and get everyone to love you.

How does one start "working in-house" or get "game design experience" they can put on a resume without actually being hired by a game design company?  People have told me this before and it just seems like a bit of a Catch-22.

"We won't hire you because you don't have experience."  "You can't get experience because we won't hire you." 

Ah well, I suppose I am getting off topic.  Sorry about that.

Experience is just a cover so they don't have to explain the real reasons they hired one person and not another.

[nicethugbert]

gaminazn wrote...

I think the Krysae is the problem.

Krysae is only a problem with TC bonuses.  I don't see why other classes should have a good weapon taken away from them, essentially, just because TC turns it into an I Win Button.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 22 juin 2012 - 09:17 .

[tetsutsuru]

RamsenC wrote...

The best way to get a game design job is to have game design experience...so yea. Or work in-house at a developer and get everyone to love you.

The proper way, really is college.  Enroll and earn your college degree in software/game development.  Colleges have job-placement programs.

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 22 juin 2012 - 09:15 .

[nicethugbert]

Double Post

Modifié par nicethugbert, 22 juin 2012 - 09:15 .

[GodlessPaladin]

tetsutsuru wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

The best way to get a game design job is to have game design experience...so yea. Or work in-house at a developer and get everyone to love you.

How does one start "working in-house" or get "game design experience" they can put on a resume without actually being hired by a game design company?  People have told me this before and it just seems like a bit of a Catch-22.

"We won't hire you because you don't have experience."  "You can't get experience because we won't hire you." 

Ah well, I suppose I am getting off topic.  Sorry about that.

Oh hey, yeah, that's the BS part of the industry.

An option in that situation is to try for freelance consultant positions.  Small projects.  Part-time.

Again I have no idea how to find openings for those positions or anything. 

[N7 Whiskey]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

audicdm wrote...

Wow! What a well thought out post and I'd have to agree. It's funny but I actually just sent Mr Fagnan a PM with a similar synopsis on Infiltrators and suggestions for TC to make players choose a role with the class.

I also provided a suggestion of this sort.

Quoted from the "Balance ALL the things!" thread:

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Tactical Cloak Power
- Base cooldown reduced from 10 seconds to 8
seconds (Compensates for the way the new duration affects Tactical
Cloak's unique cooldown mechanics.  The minimum cooldown remains the
same)
- Base duration reduced to from 8 seconds to 4 seconds
- Base damage bonus increased from 50% to 60%
- Evolution 1 duration bonus increased from 40% to 150%
- Evolution 2 damage bonus decreased from 40% to 30% (10% moved to base damage bonus)
- Evolution 5 melee damage bonus decreased from 50% to 40%  (Only because of changes to melee attacks in the rest of my balance suggestions)
- Evolution 6 damage bonus decreased from 40% to 25%, and tooltip changed to clarify why it's different from other "%" bonuses.

Note:  This change also came alongside a recommendation to buff all sniper rifles save the Krysae 15%, basically making the Evolution 6 change a null sum for sniper infiltrators but opening up sniper rifles to other classes.

GodlessPaladin wrote...

- Tactical Cloak  This change accomplishes a few things.  First, it makes the Evolution 1 Duration option more attractive (after all, who doesn't take the 40% damage bonus from Evolution 2 instead?) by moving some over Evolution 2's damage into the base damage bonus and by making the difference in duration much more notable.  

Secondly, this change emphasizes the old ME1 style paradigm of choosing between being an Agent or a Commando.  You can choose to either be able to run around with Cloak all you want, capping objectives, reviving teammates, and comfortably taking your time to maneuver, or you can go for maximum damage at the expense of utility.  The base cooldown was changed to make the cooldown in practice even out with the new duration (since cooldown is linked to percentage of duration used up, and the duration is shorter.  Thanks to Kronner for figuring out how to adjust the cooldown to compensate).  

Third, Evolution Rank 6 now adds a 1.25x sniper rifle damage multiplier rather than 1.4x.  However, at the same time, most sniper rifles have been buffed 15%, causing things to more or less even out and at the same time making sniper rifles more competitively viable for non-Infiltrator characters.  The exception to this is the Krysae, which hasn't gotten a buff, and as such does less damage on Infiltrators than it used to (and can no longer one-shot shielded mobs on Gold).

The change to the melee damage bonus evolution simply compensates for Fitness being buffed, since we didn't feel Infiltrators needed much more melee damage, particularly with melee synergy being buffed.

A link to said thread can be found here:  social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/12648909/1#12648929

I really like your suggestions but I think the sniper rifle bonus evo @ rank 6 should be nerfed even more and sniper rifles buffed more to compensate.  I really don't think a 15% increase to all sniper rifles would even be noticeable on most characters.

[tatski]

The "no to infiltrator nerf" whiners are over reacting... Infiltrators played to it full potential are simply the ultimate all around class... Even without damage bonus TC would still have tons of uses... I'm pretty sure that Bioware wouldn't leave the class useless after balancing them..