297 réponses à ce sujet

[GodlessPaladin]

capn233 wrote...

death_for_sale wrote...

Maybe I have you confused with someone else. Apologies.

He and Boom Dynamite look alot alike, so it is easy to confuse them.

Are you saying all Krogans look alike?  You humans are all racist!  

[Highlord Heian]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Highlord Heian wrote...If you don't combine biotic abilities and kill swarms of enemies faster than infiltrators ever could, sorry, you're not good at...anything.

 So are you saying you're not good at anything or are we going to see you breaking our Infiltrator speedrun records with Adepts?

Somehow I don't see Heian breaking the ten minute mark on a team or the 20 minute mark on a solo. 

You are...very simple in the head.

TC has 0 team synergy. It doesn't provide a bonus for any other teammates, it doesn't aid teammates in any way, and despite your constantly-biased explanations, doesn't stack up against any form of combined powers for effectiveness. Herp derp, compare single-target damage on an ability that does single-target damage with an ability combo that causes burst AoE damage and debuffs. Sounds legit.

Aside from your entirely Ad Hominem response, TC was "fine" for three full months, and then Krysae came out and lo and behold, suddenly it's not. I know that's a complicated logical connection for you to make with your rather simple grasp on common sense, but I doubt you put any serious thought into it before jumping in to whine.

You are, after all, one of the most notoriously whiny posters on these forums. I'm shocked anyone even pretends to take your inane ramblings seriously.

[Manuel La Bor]

Highlord Heian wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Highlord Heian wrote...If you don't combine biotic abilities and kill swarms of enemies faster than infiltrators ever could, sorry, you're not good at...anything.

 So are you saying you're not good at anything or are we going to see you breaking our Infiltrator speedrun records with Adepts?

Somehow I don't see Heian breaking the ten minute mark on a team or the 20 minute mark on a solo. 

You are...very simple in the head.

TC has 0 team synergy. It doesn't provide a bonus for any other teammates, it doesn't aid teammates in any way, and despite your constantly-biased explanations, doesn't stack up against any form of combined powers for effectiveness. Herp derp, compare single-target damage on an ability that does single-target damage with an ability combo that causes burst AoE damage and debuffs. Sounds legit.

Aside from your entirely Ad Hominem response, TC was "fine" for three full months, and then Krysae came out and lo and behold, suddenly it's not. I know that's a complicated logical connection for you to make with your rather simple grasp on common sense, but I doubt you put any serious thought into it before jumping in to whine.

You are, after all, one of the most notoriously whiny posters on these forums. I'm shocked anyone even pretends to take your inane ramblings seriously.

Remove the personal attack then from his assertion, There are currently no all biotic team speedruns that even come close to all infiltrator speedruns. I think it should be possible to do, considering that a BE detonated on a hard target like an atlas should do several thousand points of damage in a fairly large radius. But the fact still stands that no one has done it, and if they had done it they would have posted it to youtube by now if not at least the forums. 

But also, I guess this detracts from my point - the game is not balanced around speedrunning or even it seems gold in general. The balance point bioware started with was fairly low to account for bronze and silver to keep them challenging for as long as possible.

What breaks that balance are weapons that allow you to one shot everything short of banshees/primes/atlas's. 


To be honest, I think sniping for infiltrators is fine, but sniping for other classes is kind of pointless. Hence the -15% to evo 6 of TC and the +15% damage across the board for sniper rifles. No change for infiltrators, and a fairly decent boost to damage for everyone else. What should be looked at is infiltrators running shotguns, specifically the wraith, claymore, GPS, graal, and talon. Those to me are currently far more efficient to use than sniper rifles on an infiltrator. 

[BlackoutOmega]

[GodlessPaladin]

[quote]Highlord Heian wrote...

[quote]GodlessPaladin wrote...


[quote]Highlord Heian wrote...If you don't combine biotic abilities and kill swarms of enemies faster than infiltrators ever could, sorry, you're not good at...anything.[/quote] So are you saying you're not good at anything or are we going to see you breaking our Infiltrator speedrun records with Adepts?[/quote]
Aside from your entirely Ad Hominem response
[/quote]

There is no "ad hominem argument" in the response.  *Your* statement was that if you don't combine biotic abilities and kill swarms of enemies faster than infiltrators ever could, you're not good at anything.  That's your statement, not anyone else's. You won't even own up to the direct implications of your own claims though.

In fact, all of these insults are yours, not someone else's, directed at various people from just the last page of discussion which you've derailed.  Pretty much all you do is follow people around the forums and harass them with baseless insults for disagreeing with your hyperbole.

[quote]You are...very simple in the head.[/quote]
[quote]You are, after all, one of the most notoriously whiny posters on these forums.  I'm shocked anyone even pretends to take your inane ramblings seriously.[/quote]
 
[quote]I know that's a complicated logical connection for you to make with your rather simple grasp on common sense, but I doubt you put any serious thought into it before jumping in to whine.[/quote]

[quote]The crusading stupidity on these forums is a joke.[/quote]

[quote]Highlord Heian wrote...
Try to make your point without the absurd and stupidly biased comparisons. If you take Infiltrator as able to out-damage an Adept, I'm sorry to tell you, you are one terrible Adept.[/quote]

[quote]Highlord Heian wrote...
You are somewhere between the realm of stupid and wrong[/quote]

[quote]Which is to say, nice biased comparison, have you ever tried playing on Gold?[/quote]

Except that one other thing you do, which is make up complete BS and hyperbole... which you insult others for disagreeing with.

[quote]TC has 0 team synergy.[/quote]
[quote]it doesn't aid teammates in any way[/quote]

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 24 juin 2012 - 12:11 .

[Aiyie]

Mandolin wrote...

Infiltrators have ruled the roost since the game came out. Balance is long overdue. Even without any damage boost, cloak would still be one of the best powers in the game and I guarantee bioware wont go anywhere near that far in terms of "balancing".

i wouldn't go quite that far.

for awhile, till they nerfed the biotic explosion radius, adepts, in particular Asari adepts, were probably just as popular, if not more than snipers.

course, a big part of that is the way that the effectiveness of infiltrators scales vs adepts (or power classes in general).  a few months ago, before everyone was rocking level X rifles, infils weren't as deadly as they are now.

[Dream-Maker]

Highlord Heian wrote...
Unless you're really reaching into the realm of extreme stupidity, and very, very stupidly comparing an Infiltrator's single-target damage against an Adept's scaling debuff, DoT and area-of-effect destruction based solely on single-target damage in a two-second window.

Seems like somebody never heard of Krysae, Scorpion, Proxy Mine, Sticky Grenade, Arc Grenade and TC damage bonus also working for powers...

Great post as always from Godless, thanks for bringing some reason and facts about something that is obviously overpowered. Still can't get why so many people can be in denial of this and honestly think they are right.

[Commander Castillo]

You have a lot of time on your hands don't you?

[Jay Leon Hart]

Joyce_Esther wrote...

I admit, I like sniper rifles.

And I agree being an infiltrator is either kill or be killed.

So the same as every other class then?

[Jay Leon Hart]

Feneckus wrote...

 The thing I hate about infiltrators is that they can carry a Claymore and a Black Widow and they can still spam their powers more often than other classes who share their powers. That's not fair at all.

GIs/SIs can use a proximity mine every 3 seconds, regardless of their loadout, while a Turian Soldier with a Revenant X will have to wait 3.23 seconds if he doesn't spec for weapon weight. And the infiltrators somehow get a 90% damage bonus on top of that. Not to mention that the Turian soldier has to choose between marksman and proximity mine. How is that balanced ?

And grenades need to break cloak. MQIs shouldn't be able to cloak --> tactical scan --> 5 arc grenades --> shoot.

That's my only real gripe with them, tbh - they don't have to choose between the rank 6 evolutions of Cloak. If you could only keep the reduced cloak cooldown by choosing the power evolution, I'd find it much more balanced. They could even change the rank 6 damage bonus to apply to all weapons, or even all damage - then you'd either have the ability to fire powers more often from cloak and deal good weapon/power damage, or have excellent weapon damage, but risk longer cooldowns for carrying heavier/multiple weapons.

[Manuel La Bor]

Jay Leon Hart wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

 The thing I hate about infiltrators is that they can carry a Claymore and a Black Widow and they can still spam their powers more often than other classes who share their powers. That's not fair at all.

GIs/SIs can use a proximity mine every 3 seconds, regardless of their loadout, while a Turian Soldier with a Revenant X will have to wait 3.23 seconds if he doesn't spec for weapon weight. And the infiltrators somehow get a 90% damage bonus on top of that. Not to mention that the Turian soldier has to choose between marksman and proximity mine. How is that balanced ?

And grenades need to break cloak. MQIs shouldn't be able to cloak --> tactical scan --> 5 arc grenades --> shoot.

That's my only real gripe with them, tbh - they don't have to choose between the rank 6 evolutions of Cloak. If you could only keep the reduced cloak cooldown by choosing the power evolution, I'd find it much more balanced. They could even change the rank 6 damage bonus to apply to all weapons, or even all damage - then you'd either have the ability to fire powers more often from cloak and deal good weapon/power damage, or have excellent weapon damage, but risk longer cooldowns for carrying heavier/multiple weapons.

You both hit the nail squarely on it's head. Being able to spam powers with multiple/heavy weapons is kind of game breaking. The example of the turian soldier is a perfect one. 

[Jay Leon Hart]

Hakuthehedgehog wrote...

Does anyone know if the following can be made with a change of the .ini files?

Make infiltrators unable to fire a power while under TC unless they use the bonus power evolution and make both cooldowns count, instead of just TC's cooldown.

Can I hug you? I'm going to hug you...

[GodlessPaladin]

Hakuthehedgehog wrote...

Does anyone know if the following can be made with a change of the .ini files?

Make infiltrators unable to fire a power while under TC unless they use the bonus power evolution and make both cooldowns count, instead of just TC's cooldown.

Fairly sure the answer is no.

[Lucius Aelius]

So I have to agree with the OP about Infiltrators, pretty well covered the bases there, and I'm almost afraid to comment on this back-and-forth with GodlessPaladin and Highlord Heian, but I do feel pretty confident in saying Heian tends to be erring on the side of exaggeration (not to mention distinctly negative/aggressive attitude, even excluding the blatant insults), Paladin meanwhile seems to be trying to help/be constructive as usual (I'd call it presumptuous of him if he weren't as proficient at it as he is, I read that missile instructions a while back expecting to be unimpressed and found I was among the uninformed). So GodlessPaladin, I think it's safe to say he should just be ignored, anyone incapable of civil discourse has no place on this forum.

As it is I think I'm jumping ship from my thread on Infiltrators, I thought to be constructive as well but I don't think my name is known enough to give my thread any staying power. So if I might try to turn this thread back on topic, does anyone else think it'd be a good idea to create a list of changes/combinations of changes to TC that could be made without breaking it (for Bioware's sake so they have a concise list they can browse to gauge people's ideas/positions)? I thought to do as much in my thread but it never got very far....

[Tybo]

If anyone still cares at this point:

I think the problem is that TC functions almost more like a sustained mode, which gives a 90% bonus to powers and weapon damage, as well as bringing all of your cooldowns to a flat 3 seconds. A good infiltrator will be constantly cloak/decloaking, so that, of the 3 second cooldown, you have a 90% damage boost for 2.5 seconds of them.

TC the power, in terms of what it explicitly does (damage boost plus invisibility) is not too bad. It is how TC interacts with other powers, such that a SI has the best (fastest cooldown and most powerful) energy drain; GI has the best prox mine, and QMI has the best grenades (most damage and easiest to get more).

In other words, largely what Feneckus said.

[GodlessPaladin]

Lucius Aelius wrote...

So I have to agree with the OP about Infiltrators, pretty well covered the bases there, and I'm almost afraid to comment on this back-and-forth with GodlessPaladin and Highlord Heian, but I do feel pretty confident in saying Heian tends to be erring on the side of exaggeration (not to mention distinctly negative/aggressive attitude, even excluding the blatant insults), Paladin meanwhile seems to be trying to help/be constructive as usual (I'd call it presumptuous of him if he weren't as proficient at it as he is, I read that missile instructions a while back expecting to be unimpressed and found I was among the uninformed). So GodlessPaladin, I think it's safe to say he should just be ignored, anyone incapable of civil discourse has no place on this forum.

As it is I think I'm jumping ship from my thread on Infiltrators, I thought to be constructive as well but I don't think my name is known enough to give my thread any staying power. So if I might try to turn this thread back on topic, does anyone else think it'd be a good idea to create a list of changes/combinations of changes to TC that could be made without breaking it (for Bioware's sake so they have a concise list they can browse to gauge people's ideas/positions)? I thought to do as much in my thread but it never got very far....

This may interest you:  social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/12648909/1#12648929

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 24 juin 2012 - 11:45 .

[Elite3141]

I feel Infiltrators would be pretty balanced if the damage boost only applied to sniper rifles and if Tactical Cloak Evolution 6 was changed to allow them to bypass the shield gate with a headshot as opposed to a further increase in sniper damage.

There would be no more nuking spawns with Male Quarian Infiltrator Arc Grenades (well, you could, but the Engineer would do it better), the Tactical Cloak boost wouldn't be much higher than the Adrenaline Rush boost (but its duration is much shorter), and single shot sniper rifles would finally be a viable option on Gold.

But I don't think they can change that without a patch.

[Lucius Aelius]

@GodlessPaladin

Yeah but that thread is about all the things, I was thinking about a concise list just about TC which pulls together all the thoughts and ideas we can mostly agree on about nerfing it somewhere short of oblivion, something the developers can read now and take into account when making the changes in a couple of days. They asked for feedback after all, I'd just like them to get it without a headache thrown into the mix, hence my suggestion of concise (and that's one thing that thread is definitely not).

[The Waffle Cat]

Even if they nerf tc its still a strong class, ive proven that with my solo without tc on a gi so I dont understand the rustle, it is and will always be a good class.

[molecularman]

The Waffle Cat wrote...

Even if they nerf tc its still a strong class, ive proven that with my solo without tc on a gi so I dont understand the rustle, it is and will always be a good class.

This

[GodlessPaladin]

(Weird delayed double post...)

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 25 juin 2012 - 12:09 .

[Lucius Aelius]

Well, I for one agree they would do well to make the recharge time on TC the actual time instead of automatically 3 seconds (with 3 sec minimum), and Sniper Rifles definitely need a buff (minus the Krysae) such that non-infiltrators can use them effectively, which would fit well with a nerf to the TC damage (snipers not being the problem with Infiltrators, again apart from the Krysae). And I definitely think Melee should keep a sizeable bonus, it's the most high-risk mode of attack for any character, and Melee above all makes sense with an automatic damage bonus, you don't control where on an enemy you Melee. Apart from that, GodlessPaladin pretty well covered the concepts surrounding infiltrators being as capable as they are, which I pretty much entirely agree with and imagine should be a worthwhile read for the devs. Whatever they do I also hope they make the cloak as effective at cloaking you as it used to be, I don't know why they thought that was a sensible change.

[GodlessPaladin]

Lucius Aelius wrote...

@GodlessPaladin

Yeah but that thread is about all the things, I was thinking about a concise list just about TC which pulls together all the thoughts and ideas we can mostly agree on about nerfing it somewhere short of oblivion, something the developers can read now and take into account when making the changes in a couple of days. They asked for feedback after all, I'd just like them to get it without a headache thrown into the mix, hence my suggestion of concise (and that's one thing that thread is definitely not).

We have a thread just about Tactical Cloak (and indeed a separate thread about just about every individual aspect of the larger public forum post) in our discussion group, which Eric Fagnan has posted on.  *Shrug*

I can invite you to the group if you like.  *Sent*

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 25 juin 2012 - 12:55 .

[Lucius Aelius]

Ah, well I am behind the curve it seems, that group pretty much has it covered, and all very organized.