187 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Rosario]

COLZ7R wrote...

There is no point at all trying to talk to a nerffer about this, they are always right, dont care about anyone else because their point is the only valid one and it basically comes down to " you should only play how I think you should!" happens in every online game
you should see them though when their fave class cops it further down the line, the butthurt is brilliant

Generalizing is not nice. I'm one of those who thinks that TC is overpowered and really, I have only heard one good valid arguement. That good arguement being that if TC is nerfed, then many befuddled players will quit because they feel the game is no longer worth playing. No matter how misguided their thinking is, the point is still true. People will just stop playing and stop spending money on the game if the infiltrator is tweaked [even if the tweek is need/called for].

There are other points such as balance is pointless in a co-op game, the infiltrator is fine as is, that newbies should be allowed to use the infiltrator to play gold, and a few others I can't remember right now. These points hold little ground and fall flat really.

[dmntdmstrmnd]

i wish all u people would stop trying to get bioware to make unnecessary changes to the game THAT DONT NEED TO BE CHANGED! play the game and enjoy it for what it is or play something else. all u people complaining to bioware are ultimately causing them to make changes that destroy an awesome mp experience.

[Tallgeese_VII]

Nerf TC and see who really suffer haha

[Immortal Strife]

The nerf is coming, it's a done deal. The class is not going to be ruined, Bioware actually knows what they are doing when is comes to the weekly balance updates- patches however, not so much.

[COLZ7R]

@lord rosario
unfortunatlly its a cycle i have seen in just about every mp game with more than 1 gun. some people just dont like other peoples playstyle, it can be dressed up in other words but thats what it boils down to. there is choices of not using inf if you want but people want to take the choice away from some people. fair? Sorry i think not

[Krantzstone]

If Infiltrator / TC is too easy mode for the players who know how to play them, maybe they need to make Gold harder. I imagined what multiplayer would be like if the enemies could run and gun as fast and as well as we could. Or if they hid behind barriers and instakilled us.

As it stands, it's hard to make computer-controlled enemies smarter because AIs just aren't at the same level of intelligence as the very best of human players. Instead, npc enemies end up getting significant (and some might argue 'unfair') boosts to their health, shields, etc., or increased speed, infinite ammo, etc. in a bid to make things challenging for players. A pity AIs can't be auto-adjusted on the fly to compensate for players who are clearly too good at playing certain classes or simply too good in general.

Probably my favourite AIs were for Unreal Tournament, where at their highest setting were relatively challenging (although still far from impossible to defeat).

As for balance issues with TC or Infiltrators, while it's not entirely immaterial (it's not really fun for non-infiltrators if Infiltrators can go around soloing the map at the expense of other people's fun - I'm not saying that happens, but I'm saying it would not be fun if it did), I'd say it's far less of a concern in a co-op-only multiplayer game than it would be on a clearly adversarial PvP system where it really would be unfair.

I don't know that it's a good idea to balance a game based on the top 1% of players and what they do, because those people are relatively rare: it's one thing if any Joe Blow could make an infiltrator and using the worst sniper weapon in the game, still solo Gold by using TC. But I don't believe that's the case here, and if it takes a combination of experience, skills, race and class combination, specs, rare weapons maxed out, and a level 20 character to solo Gold, then I don't think it's terribly unbalanced. If there are some players who are a little too good to be using an infiltrator, they can always try using a different class, or try playing on a higher difficulty with a lower level character, or even just try using a crappy weapon for a change just to spice things up. Balancing the game based on the best players is going to make the game significantly harder for the average, casual player, especially the ones who are used to being able to freeze the action and to deliberate on what skills, powers, etc. to use in a given situation, and aren't really ready for the FPS-style pace of multiplayer. I know I found even bronze challenging when I first started, and even now I wouldn't consider trying to solo Gold.

[joker_jack]

COLZ7R wrote...

@lord rosario
unfortunatlly its a cycle i have seen in just about every mp game with more than 1 gun. some people just dont like other peoples playstyle, it can be dressed up in other words but thats what it boils down to. there is choices of not using inf if you want but people want to take the choice away from some people. fair? Sorry i think not

I've seen this alot too. Example being the adept class. You're only aloud to to use a carnifex or nothing at all. There are alot of viable weapons out there That will work with an adept and still give a decent dps and +200% cooldown. This point in the life of this mp, we are coming to a point where there is becoming no more room for new, viabale builds. No new weapons that would mess with the status quo. No new characters. Just the same people wanting mp done thier way or your not fit to play and giving nothing but strawman justifacations why their way is the only way.

[Stinja]

While I agree balancing to the top 1% is a bad idea, I don't agree on making gold harder just because of infiltrators (if it's generally too easy fair enough): that effectively nerfs every other class, just forcing you to play as infiltrators.

Ultimately this all boils down to game design:
- the only way to progress is credits (once you have max characters)
- credits are biased towards higher difficulties (ie gold is best)
- gold ramps up the restrictions on play style; due to armour defence, enemy fire, boss numbers etc

Ergo infiltrators make gaining credits the most efficient method.

Not the only method, but most efficient. Even if BW removed infiltrators altogether, the top 1% would use the next best combo and be barely slowed down. Everyone else would have to adapt, and some would now find gold too hard, others would be fine. Even if you didn't play infiltrator yourself, the game would probably be that little bit harder without them on your team.

Unless BW rethink some of the game mechanics (or credit reward system), which on gold punish everyone that's not an infiltrator more, Im fine with them being in as is.

Lastly, if I'm in a team with three infiltrators, I don't mind the aggro dump. You take a tanky class, and use the aggro for the teams benefit: you can draw enemies to an easy choke point, kite bosses, and generally play like your soloing. Don't play like you normally would and then complain, adjust for it.

[COLZ7R]

Stinja that is far too reasonable a point it will never be agreeable to the nerffers!!!

[Nexus_templer]

I bad speak in English. Sorry for this.

About infiltrators.

1. Infiltrator save other teammates, when they dying.
2. infiltrator performs tasks in the third, sixth and tenth wave. Decoding of the four sites. This task without infiltrator becomes a terrible problem, especially in the outpost of "Glacier." Against Reapers.
3. Infiltrator has only one fully developed the ability to actively excluding tactical camouflage, which may help him in battle. This is a contact mine, or theft of energy. This soldier is not such an abundance of skills as a biotic or an engineer. Can we confiscate these classes their skills?
4. This is an important factor, as I see many players forget. Do you play multiplayer and it is important not to your "I'm selfish," and not as many abilities have your partner. In multiplayer important "team game", it does not exist for your "Me or MY", it is "WE ARE". And if you lose the infiltrator, when fighting one on one, you lose "ALL."

And finally. Your claims against the infiltrator unfounded, stupid and selfish. Envy is a character class that you can not or do not want to play, that's no reason to claim to equate it with others. Hopefully game developers will think several times before to listen to such complaints.

Sorry for my English.

[Pete Zahut]

I hate nerfers like the OP. Just let people have fun with what they got. No matter how much they nerf it, people are still gonna farm geth on gold. I'm just gonna stick with my quarian male engineer until they nerf that. I hope the OP dies every time he tries gold because he doesn't have an infiltrator to cloak and pick him up

[Poison_Berrie]

COLZ7R wrote...

Stinja that is far too reasonable a point it will never be agreeable to the nerffers!!!

Look if you can't make a mature point, just don't post.

If you keep up your generalizations and attacks, you really aren't endearing your side of the argument, but activally harming it.

[landylan]

Nexus_templer wrote...

I bad speak in English. Sorry for this.

About infiltrators.

1. Infiltrator save other teammates, when they dying.
2. infiltrator performs tasks in the third, sixth and tenth wave. Decoding of the four sites. This task without infiltrator becomes a terrible problem, especially in the outpost of "Glacier." Against Reapers.
3. Infiltrator has only one fully developed the ability to actively excluding tactical camouflage, which may help him in battle. This is a contact mine, or theft of energy. This soldier is not such an abundance of skills as a biotic or an engineer. Can we confiscate these classes their skills?
4. This is an important factor, as I see many players forget. Do you play multiplayer and it is important not to your "I'm selfish," and not as many abilities have your partner. In multiplayer important "team game", it does not exist for your "Me or MY", it is "WE ARE". And if you lose the infiltrator, when fighting one on one, you lose "ALL."

And finally. Your claims against the infiltrator unfounded, stupid and selfish. Envy is a character class that you can not or do not want to play, that's no reason to claim to equate it with others. Hopefully game developers will think several times before to listen to such complaints.

Sorry for my English.

1. duration will not be nerfed. they could still do this. normally when they do this, it doesnt help because your revived in the middle of a mod or worse.
2.duration wouldnt get a nerf...
3. this one is hard to understand. infiltrators have awesome abilities other than cloak. they have some of the best powers in the game.
4. using this logic, it's ok to have a teammate with a machinegun krysae because your on the same team.

you yourself say that the class is not equal at the end. you say there is no reason to equate it to other classes. the classes are meant to be balanced and equally important

Modifié par landylan, 26 juin 2012 - 07:17 .

[Lord Rosario]

COLZ7R wrote...

@lord rosario
unfortunatlly its a cycle i have seen in just about every mp game with more than 1 gun. some people just dont like other peoples playstyle, it can be dressed up in other words but thats what it boils down to. there is choices of not using inf if you want but people want to take the choice away from some people. fair? Sorry i think not

How the heck is making a character more ballanced taking the choice of playing that character away? What is fair is to have the classes equally good at doing separate things [not making them all do the same thing equally good. Dont want a grey blob class.]

[joker_jack]

landylan wrote...

Nexus_templer wrote...

I bad speak in English. Sorry for this.

About infiltrators.

1. Infiltrator save other teammates, when they dying.
2. infiltrator performs tasks in the third, sixth and tenth wave. Decoding of the four sites. This task without infiltrator becomes a terrible problem, especially in the outpost of "Glacier." Against Reapers.
3. Infiltrator has only one fully developed the ability to actively excluding tactical camouflage, which may help him in battle. This is a contact mine, or theft of energy. This soldier is not such an abundance of skills as a biotic or an engineer. Can we confiscate these classes their skills?
4. This is an important factor, as I see many players forget. Do you play multiplayer and it is important not to your "I'm selfish," and not as many abilities have your partner. In multiplayer important "team game", it does not exist for your "Me or MY", it is "WE ARE". And if you lose the infiltrator, when fighting one on one, you lose "ALL."

And finally. Your claims against the infiltrator unfounded, stupid and selfish. Envy is a character class that you can not or do not want to play, that's no reason to claim to equate it with others. Hopefully game developers will think several times before to listen to such complaints.

Sorry for my English.

1. duration will not be nerfed. they could still do this. normally when they do this, it doesnt help because your revived in the middle of a mod or worse.
2.duration wouldnt get a nerf...
3. this one is hard to understand. infiltrators have awesome abilities other than cloak. they have some of the best powers in the game.
4. using this logic, it's ok to have a teammate with a machinegun krysae because your on the same team.

you yourself say that the class is not equal at the end. you say there is no reason to equate it to other classes. the classes are meant to be balanced and equally important

Right because A drellgruard with some of the worst power synergy in the game is a shinning exsample of balance.

[NCRZombie]

Please continue the discussion on Infiltrators. It allows the other 2 classes that I can destroy a map with fly under the radar.






*Moustache Twirl*

Modifié par NCRZombie, 26 juin 2012 - 07:21 .

[Zorinho20_CRO]

This is maybe weird,but I´m better player with some other classes(AA,KV,TS) than the Infiltrator.
I think I trust too much to TC and this is stopping me to play smart.

[landylan]

joker jack, saying one class sucks really doesnt support your argument at all. drell vanguard isnt even as terrible as people say. you tear through low tiered units and have excellent mobility to acquire grenades for boss killing

[COLZ7R]

@poison berrie
was just trying to lighten the mood no need to get your knickers in a twist!!!

[PRC_Heavy_Z]

So... instead of buffing up other classes to a more respectable level, people would rather nerf the infiltrator class because it is actually viable in Gold matches and because people get butthurt over being outscored by an infiltrator.


Guess common sense is in sort supply these days.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

PRC_Heavy_Z wrote...

So... instead of buffing up other classes to a more respectable level, people would rather nerf the infiltrator class because it is actually viable in Gold matches and because people get butthurt over being outscored by an infiltrator.


Guess common sense is in sort supply these days.

You seem to think other classes are not viable in Gold. The infiltrator class has a slight edge, because of the cloak and a certain weapon I shan't name, but all classes can do well/topscore on Gold. They have been buffed already and don't need other buffs.

[Poison_Berrie]

COLZ7R wrote...

@poison berrie
was just trying to lighten the mood no need to get your knickers in a twist!!!

Try to be less insulting when trying to lighten the mood, then.

PRC_Heavy_Z wrote...

So... instead of buffing up other classes to a more respectable level, people would rather nerf the infiltrator class because it is actually viable in Gold matches and because people get butthurt over being outscored by an infiltrator.

Guess common sense is in sort supply these days. 

So you can only play Infiltrator on Gold. 
I think it's likely that your skill level is artificially inflated by the class you play and in you probably shouldn't be playing Gold.
Because I've found plenty of classes viable on Gold with my mediocre skill level.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 26 juin 2012 - 07:46 .

[PRC_Heavy_Z]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...


You seem to think other classes are not viable in Gold. The infiltrator class has a slight edge, because of the cloak and a certain weapon I shan't name, but all classes can do well/topscore on Gold. They have been buffed already and don't need other buffs.

Actually I was adopting the Nerf-Criers' logic for the sake of argument. They are the ones overexaggerating the infiltrator's abilities.

But good to see you more or less agree that the infiltrator's "OP-ness" is more of a slight edge instead of the game breaking exploit many will have people believe. 

[Lord Rosario]

PRC_Heavy_Z wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...


You seem to think other classes are not viable in Gold. The infiltrator class has a slight edge, because of the cloak and a certain weapon I shan't name, but all classes can do well/topscore on Gold. They have been buffed already and don't need other buffs.

Actually I was adopting the Nerf-Criers' logic for the sake of argument. They are the ones overexaggerating the infiltrator's abilities.

But good to see you more or less agree that the infiltrator's "OP-ness" is more of a slight edge instead of the game breaking exploit many will have people believe. 

Hey look, another person generalizing! 

[FlowCytometry]

Stinja wrote...

While I agree balancing to the top 1% is a bad idea, I don't agree on making gold harder just because of infiltrators (if it's generally too easy fair enough): that effectively nerfs every other class, just forcing you to play as infiltrators.

Ultimately this all boils down to game design:
- the only way to progress is credits (once you have max characters)
- credits are biased towards higher difficulties (ie gold is best)
- gold ramps up the restrictions on play style; due to armour defence, enemy fire, boss numbers etc

Ergo infiltrators make gaining credits the most efficient method.

Not the only method, but most efficient. Even if BW removed infiltrators altogether, the top 1% would use the next best combo and be barely slowed down. Everyone else would have to adapt, and some would now find gold too hard, others would be fine. Even if you didn't play infiltrator yourself, the game would probably be that little bit harder without them on your team.

Unless BW rethink some of the game mechanics (or credit reward system), which on gold punish everyone that's not an infiltrator more, Im fine with them being in as is.

Lastly, if I'm in a team with three infiltrators, I don't mind the aggro dump. You take a tanky class, and use the aggro for the teams benefit: you can draw enemies to an easy choke point, kite bosses, and generally play like your soloing. Don't play like you normally would and then complain, adjust for it.

imo the migration can be a good thing. All these bad infiltrators people keep referring to do drag down gold matches. I do have to wonder if some of them would actually be better off w/ another class on gold. But there's pressure to play an Infil on the hardest difficulty- its by far the safest potential class to select since it has an escape move that's unmatched. Likely those that are more comitted to the class will stick through it, and those are more likely to be in the 'good infiltrator' camp.

You don't see infils dominating any more than any other class can on silver/bronze or being played nearly as often below gold. Ofc 'ease of use' of the class is a factor, but another big one is simply the difficulty of random gold matches vs. the other settings, as is the fact that the class, when played well, can nearly do it all w/o help from a team. Randoms will go for self-sufficiency and self-preservance over teamwork when in a bind- no suprise when you tighten the difficulty that more will flock to the class that offers those two things quite well.

But we really should just wait and see just how extensive this review is before catastrophizing.

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 26 juin 2012 - 07:59 .