2621 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

V-rcingetorix wrote...

The original endings possessed qualities the ancient Greeks would have deemed worthy of another Trojan war. And the first one was (allegedly) for a guest taking off with his hosts' wife (Helen, wife of Meneleus).

Frankly, ME3 has been the apex of the Mass Effect Series. The combat was intuitive, yet challenging (I did my first playthrough on Insanity, so maybe not quite as challenging?). The dialogue was charming and poignant, and all the major decisions from the previous contributions of the series were in their proper place.

I would have liked to keep Jack or Wrex on my team, but I can see why it would have been difficult to write it. I loved how there was a lounge for people to use (ME1 and ME2 had static positions, useful, but unrealistic), incorporating yet another conversation piece from a previous game.

The ending is what was killer. This series has made a specialty out of saving the hero...just after killing him off. ME1 had Shepard die in the battle with Saren, only to pull him out (two endings possible, save/lose Council). ME2 finished the fight with an epic Boss battle, an honest-to-goodness baby Reaper; Shepard died...only to rise up again from under rubble and help his team mates (depending on loyalty) rise again and make a death-defying leap to the Normandy (two endings, save/trash Collector base, plus whomever died).

ME3 in its current, better, ending has Shepard walking. The fight to the Stairway to Heaven is great, downright Epic imho (since when in this game has a end fight been just to survive?). But...walking? Slow-motion gunning down husks/marauder is all very well, but not as a substitute for raising the bar we have all come to expect. ME1: Indoctrinated Saren/Sovereign, ME2: Collector General/Baby Reaper, ME3: Terrifying meander through the Citadel Basement?

The end decision is not clear cut either. ME1: save Council/let Council die. ME2: Take time to help team+Save Collector Base/Destroy Collector Base. There was a third choice in ME1 (conserve fleet, I think), but that was the same as Let Council Die. Where is the Yes/No choice in ME3?

Epic, yes. Ending was terrible. Such is the legacy

Exactly.  You are supposed to be fighting through hell itself and instead it's still "drop your controller and watch" time.  There are no yes/no choices.  Even one of the questions they inserted (I would have to replay that crap again to find it) where Shepard asks for an explanation, asks the wrong question.  I remember, it's one of the synthesis ones-I'd like more information or something like that, and the question is how can my energy be sent out (something like this).  No, I wanted to know how can all DNA be converted by Mr. Magic Beam.

But I digress.  You don't get real choices, you get explanation for stuff that stupid tells you.  He's still the god awful embodiment of all that is wrong with the ending.  Bluestorm83 keeps on saying it so well.  There's no win or lose to the game even with the EC.  There's just a sense again of it just not being finished.  There's no good choice IMO.

[3DandBeyond]

joker_jack wrote...

I still enjoyed what we have gotten in the extended cut. I'm getting ready to do anothe play threw of me1 to me3 now with a few different choices and see how it turns out.

Want a hint---it turns out the same.

[Yawaru]

I think the fact that EA took the time to expand on the existing endings and addressed a bunch of the complaints the public had then gave it to players for free speaks volumes for the company and its developers.

That having been said I'm still kinda underwhelmed by it. I mean, nearly 2 gigs of download for an extra slideshow and minor CS tweaks? I still kinda think they did something and didn't mention it. But like I said for a free patch to fill in some plot holes I really can't rag on them too hard. They have something else planned, I just know it. I could easily see another game expansion or even a movie to cap off the series.

As for the Starchild logic, I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be. I mean yeah, it's kinda like I Robot, cept Shepard can't be as badass as Will Smith, but his plan kinda works. He sees things like a machine, like the Geth, people don't matter as individuals, just as the group or species. The basic information about a culture and people is distilled and ground up into the Reaper chow, so in a way all the organic people that have ever existed live on in the Reapers. Just not in the way they desire. But again look at I Robot, you don't do things the way peoples would want, they fight you. So you kill a few to save the majority. Mathematically it works.

What my question would be is, what happens to all the synthetic races? Do they get made into super machine Reapers? Or do they just up and get destroyed? I mean, that kinda defeats the purpose of the cycle, if you just kill all the synthetics anyway why not just wipe them out and let the organics live till they make a synthetic race they don't try to up and destroy?

Wait, I think I see the flaw here, unlike I Robot, the intention of the program was to facilitate synthetics and organics living in harmony, so when the synthetics get the upper hand, they make another unshackled AI to play arbiter between the species, and they're surprised when it killed them all. Furthermore, the goal of the AI was to have synthetics and organics get along, not necessarily preserving organic species by making them into Reapers.Really once they saw the Geth and Quarians working together they should have just said mission accomplished and go back into dark space.

I guess you could say there's no guarantee the peace would last and if they did retreat, then some years later the allied forces were strong enough to track down and destroy the Reapers, there would be nothing to guarantee there isn't a fallout afterwards with no safety buffer to preserve the organics. But still given the abilities of the Reapers, particularly indoctrination, they could simply engineer peace from the shadows if they wanted to.

So maybe the whole Starchild shpeel was a lie to begin with and it's just a twisted AI that loves ****ing with other lifeforms?

[V-rcingetorix]

If the individuals chose to be implanted, then sure, I could roll with that. The Quarians seem to have gone that route already. However, very few of the other species seem to utilize that particular skill set. Shepard is the only one to have heavily modified (life changing) implants, and even he was not sure if he was himself.

The individual species, being not given a choice, therefore are on the receiving end of a raw deal. What makes Shepard different from the Reapers if he goes along with the Reapers plan...not even asking his team for advice? Shepard has the ear of the Turian Primarch, the Quarian Admirals, the Krogan Ruler...and no advice sought?

[3DandBeyond]

Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

Synthesis feels rather wrong (very wrong) for me since this is a freak of nature. Implants or no implants synthetics must not integrate with organics, this is just plain wrong, an abomination. If you look at it on a different moral perspective, the new lifeform is God-like.

It's wrong on many levels.  It is forced upon everyone, and by that I mean they are not giving their consent to having this done to them.  In ME, there were people that didn't even want implants.  There may be people that object on religious grounds, but they are not allowed a voice, no one but Shepard is.  Shepard would not force such a change on anyone-mine wouldn't.

And control and synthesis are like 2 heads of the same snake.  They both mean the reapers exist still.  And people cannot be responsible enough to create their own futures on their own and they will not be able to avoid conflicts that they've actually already found ways to resolve. 

The problem is if Shepard believes the crucible will work, then the clear choice is the only one s/he was sent there to do-destroy the reapers.  Well, that is genocide.  So, someone really sadistic wrote all this.

And refuse isn't a real serious choice at all-that's that sadistic person's middle finger shoved right in our faces.

[BlueStorm83]

3DandBeyond wrote...

joker_jack wrote...

I still enjoyed what we have gotten in the extended cut. I'm getting ready to do anothe play threw of me1 to me3 now with a few different choices and see how it turns out.

Want a hint---it turns out the same.

Do you mean that it turns out the same as it used to?  Or it turns out the same in each of the 3 new endings?  AH, WAIT, BOTH ARE TRUE!  Endings don't change at all, besides different epilogue slides (that's nice at the very least) but the same sense of "Wait, I just lost the game, didn't I?" is there in all the endings.  No matter what.

The best ending is the one where you never got into Mass Effect in the first place and saved yourself 200 dollars.

[BlueStorm83]

Synthesis: The Reapers are right, and are the ideal we should all aspire to. And now I force that end onto everyone all at the same time.

Control: The Reapers may be murderous horrors from beyond space, but people can get used to them being Policemen, and construction workers, and firemen, and bikers, and indian chief- OH MY GOD, THE REAPERS ARE THE VILLAGE PEOPLE! But really, people can be friends with them, right? Just so long as nobody gets in my way...

Destroy: The Reapers are bad. But hey, we'll try things their way and try Genocide out!

Refuse: I am right. The Reapers are wrong. We will stand up against them and give it all we ha- holy ****, is it over already? Wow, that went badly.

[V-rcingetorix]

Yawaru wrote...

I think the fact that EA took the time to expand on the existing endings and addressed a bunch of the complaints the public had then gave it to players for free speaks volumes for the company and its developers.

That having been said I'm still kinda underwhelmed by it. I mean, nearly 2 gigs of download for an extra slideshow and minor CS tweaks? I still kinda think they did something and didn't mention it. But like I said for a free patch to fill in some plot holes I really can't rag on them too hard. They have something else planned, I just know it. I could easily see another game expansion or even a movie to cap off the series.

As for the Starchild logic, I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be. I mean yeah, it's kinda like I Robot, cept Shepard can't be as badass as Will Smith, but his plan kinda works. He sees things like a machine, like the Geth, people don't matter as individuals, just as the group or species. The basic information about a culture and people is distilled and ground up into the Reaper chow, so in a way all the organic people that have ever existed live on in the Reapers. Just not in the way they desire. But again look at I Robot, you don't do things the way peoples would want, they fight you. So you kill a few to save the majority. Mathematically it works.

What my question would be is, what happens to all the synthetic races? Do they get made into super machine Reapers? Or do they just up and get destroyed? I mean, that kinda defeats the purpose of the cycle, if you just kill all the synthetics anyway why not just wipe them out and let the organics live till they make a synthetic race they don't try to up and destroy?

Wait, I think I see the flaw here, unlike I Robot, the intention of the program was to facilitate synthetics and organics living in harmony, so when the synthetics get the upper hand, they make another unshackled AI to play arbiter between the species, and they're surprised when it killed them all. Furthermore, the goal of the AI was to have synthetics and organics get along, not necessarily preserving organic species by making them into Reapers.Really once they saw the Geth and Quarians working together they should have just said mission accomplished and go back into dark space.

I guess you could say there's no guarantee the peace would last and if they did retreat, then some years later the allied forces were strong enough to track down and destroy the Reapers, there would be nothing to guarantee there isn't a fallout afterwards with no safety buffer to preserve the organics. But still given the abilities of the Reapers, particularly indoctrination, they could simply engineer peace from the shadows if they wanted to.

So maybe the whole Starchild shpeel was a lie to begin with and it's just a twisted AI that loves ****ing with other lifeforms?

Good point, there is 2 gig that was downloaded, so I share your hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Also, there have been other rumors, like "you'll want to keep your save files forever" and such. If not..if this ending is all there really is...then that light was really an oncoming train.

Good other points as well. I don't know what the other Reapers did, but the one on Rannoch stated the war between the Geth and Quarians was proof that synthetics/organics could not cooperate...completely ignoring Legion. Apparently, the Reaper also ignored the Geth collective save files when Legion was a prisoner, which showed Shepard and Tali working with a geth.  Odd. Very Odd.

Maybe this new DLC rumored to come out will tie things together...maybe this "renegade Reaper" is throwing garbage data into the Reaper communication networks? It might help.

Yes! We have pwoer again! Took the power companies long enough <_<

[Jymm]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

You're missing the point.  Mass Effect 3 is, above all else, a video game.  And games are played to be won.  The game lacks an end where we actually achieve a victory.  We can compromise in three different ways or we can be defiant and lose.

I think this is why I liked the refuse ending so much.  It feels like Shepard still has agency to decide his / her own fate and that of the galaxy.  The other three endings feel like weak compromises.

[AresKeith]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Gnaeus.Silvanus wrote...

Synthesis feels rather wrong (very wrong) for me since this is a freak of nature. Implants or no implants synthetics must not integrate with organics, this is just plain wrong, an abomination. If you look at it on a different moral perspective, the new lifeform is God-like.

It's wrong on many levels.  It is forced upon everyone, and by that I mean they are not giving their consent to having this done to them.  In ME, there were people that didn't even want implants.  There may be people that object on religious grounds, but they are not allowed a voice, no one but Shepard is.  Shepard would not force such a change on anyone-mine wouldn't.

And control and synthesis are like 2 heads of the same snake.  They both mean the reapers exist still.  And people cannot be responsible enough to create their own futures on their own and they will not be able to avoid conflicts that they've actually already found ways to resolve. 

The problem is if Shepard believes the crucible will work, then the clear choice is the only one s/he was sent there to do-destroy the reapers.  Well, that is genocide.  So, someone really sadistic wrote all this.

And refuse isn't a real serious choice at all-that's that sadistic person's middle finger shoved right in our faces.

its basically them saying, "you don't like our God-child, F you"

[KroganShields]

It's July 4th, why the Extended Cut is not out yet for us?

[vixvicco]

KroganShields wrote...

It's July 4th, why the Extended Cut is not out yet for us?

Been waiting! I get the impression its really coming out the 5th for AUS gamers.

[KiganMatsuei]

Jymm wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

You're missing the point.  Mass Effect 3 is, above all else, a video game.  And games are played to be won.  The game lacks an end where we actually achieve a victory.  We can compromise in three different ways or we can be defiant and lose.

I think this is why I liked the refuse ending so much.  It feels like Shepard still has agency to decide his / her own fate and that of the galaxy.  The other three endings feel like weak compromises.

Throwing away 3 games of work by killing every race we've come to know isn't a compromise?

[Who Said That]

In my opinion, you did a better job with the ending this time and tied it off in a less sleazy manner. I'm still not sure why you forced sadness upon us, though. I've never understood how it was too much to ask for a diverse spread of choices. Save the galaxy selflessly, (you nailed that one) go down hard, (sort of got it) fail in your attempt, (interesting addition) or live happily ever after (that would have been nice). Thanks for doing something.

[3DandBeyond]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

joker_jack wrote...

I still enjoyed what we have gotten in the extended cut. I'm getting ready to do anothe play threw of me1 to me3 now with a few different choices and see how it turns out.

Want a hint---it turns out the same.

Do you mean that it turns out the same as it used to?  Or it turns out the same in each of the 3 new endings?  AH, WAIT, BOTH ARE TRUE!  Endings don't change at all, besides different epilogue slides (that's nice at the very least) but the same sense of "Wait, I just lost the game, didn't I?" is there in all the endings.  No matter what.

The best ending is the one where you never got into Mass Effect in the first place and saved yourself 200 dollars.

You win the prize!  A total retconning of your life where you never heard of ME, never opened your mind to the better aspirations of future gaming and sci fi worlds and beings who in the last ten minutes or so of a game are told all that they've achieved is garbage, plain and simple.

[3DandBeyond]

KiganMatsuei wrote...

Jymm wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

You're missing the point.  Mass Effect 3 is, above all else, a video game.  And games are played to be won.  The game lacks an end where we actually achieve a victory.  We can compromise in three different ways or we can be defiant and lose.

I think this is why I liked the refuse ending so much.  It feels like Shepard still has agency to decide his / her own fate and that of the galaxy.  The other three endings feel like weak compromises.

Throwing away 3 games of work by killing every race we've come to know isn't a compromise?

He has his agency to do exactly not what everyone wanted to do-destroy the reapers.  They didn't send Shepard up there to get the big middle finger from Bioware.  Yeah, great speech, game over.  Let someone else make a stupid choice in the future.

[3DandBeyond]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Synthesis: The Reapers are right, and are the ideal we should all aspire to. And now I force that end onto everyone all at the same time.

Control: The Reapers may be murderous horrors from beyond space, but people can get used to them being Policemen, and construction workers, and firemen, and bikers, and indian chief- OH MY GOD, THE REAPERS ARE THE VILLAGE PEOPLE! But really, people can be friends with them, right? Just so long as nobody gets in my way...

Destroy: The Reapers are bad. But hey, we'll try things their way and try Genocide out!

Refuse: I am right. The Reapers are wrong. We will stand up against them and give it all we ha- holy ****, is it over already? Wow, that went badly.

Ha ha-that about sums it up.

But, in Control, no one knows that Shepard is now controlling them.  And Shepard can't tell them.  So, for all people know the reapers are still a threat and acting crazy.  I mean there are a lot of people that have a problem trusting someone that told them a lie, so now without knowing why, people are just supposed to trust the nicer reaper version because it's not shooting at them?

And Destroy (genocide rules, man) meant this to me.  EDI spent a lot of time and effort trying to learn what it meant to become alive.  She wanted to become responsible for her own future, to self-determine.  In London, she gives Shepard credit for helping her finally do that.  She has learned that life is about uncertainty, adaptation, feelings, fear, love, hope.  And that life is about the interdependency of people with one another, not the dependence upon some programming to solve every equation or some super intelligence to solve every problem for you.  It is about finding your own way and who you become because of it.  Destroy is the only choice that allows that to happen for the people that exist in Shepard's time.  But, because Shepard taught EDI that and Destroy might be the more natural choice, the best example (EDI) of what Destroy will do (create self-reliant people) must die.  F this.  If they wanted to write some expose on the meaning of life and then smash it in the face, ME wasn't the place to do it.

And I still have a problem anyway with picking any choice and refuse is ignorant in the way they created it.

[Pinax]

Hello all,

I have posted this already on another thread, but thought... why not here as well? Just to give a small bit of hope for those who wanted to see a differently written ending. I am pretty sure most of you heard about it/seen it already, so just a reminder for those who know and a recommendation for those who haven't seen yet.

As BW left "a lot in the ending to the imagination of the players" (vaguely quoting an interview with Casey Hudson and Mac Walters before the EC release, source: http://www.masseffect.com/about/extended_cut/ ) there is a proposition of such an imaginative fan-fiction ending:

http://koobismo.devi...rt.com/gallery/

What started as a joke turned out into a very good and still developing story and an touching audio-book project (to omit the joking part, I advise to start the comic by episode 6) with all the subtle details, references and emotional impact that make a very good writing. Koobismo and his team's vision and work is really impressive and worth recommendation, not only for those who do not agree with the original game endings.

EDIT: links

Modifié par Pinax, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:57 .

[RR1107]

I searched, but didn't notice if it had been posted anywhere, but when you choose destroy, if Garrus puts your name up on the memorial wall, Traynor is not rendered in the memorial cut scene, even though she should be alive. I guess this would be considered a bug, but I wasn't sure where else to post it. Thanks!

[BlueStorm83]

3DandBeyond wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

Synthesis: The Reapers are right, and are the ideal we should all aspire to. And now I force that end onto everyone all at the same time.

Control: The Reapers may be murderous horrors from beyond space, but people can get used to them being Policemen, and construction workers, and firemen, and bikers, and indian chief- OH MY GOD, THE REAPERS ARE THE VILLAGE PEOPLE! But really, people can be friends with them, right? Just so long as nobody gets in my way...

Destroy: The Reapers are bad. But hey, we'll try things their way and try Genocide out!

Refuse: I am right. The Reapers are wrong. We will stand up against them and give it all we ha- holy ****, is it over already? Wow, that went badly.

Ha ha-that about sums it up.

But, in Control, no one knows that Shepard is now controlling them.  And Shepard can't tell them.  So, for all people know the reapers are still a threat and acting crazy.  I mean there are a lot of people that have a problem trusting someone that told them a lie, so now without knowing why, people are just supposed to trust the nicer reaper version because it's not shooting at them?

And Destroy (genocide rules, man) meant this to me.  EDI spent a lot of time and effort trying to learn what it meant to become alive.  She wanted to become responsible for her own future, to self-determine.  In London, she gives Shepard credit for helping her finally do that.  She has learned that life is about uncertainty, adaptation, feelings, fear, love, hope.  And that life is about the interdependency of people with one another, not the dependence upon some programming to solve every equation or some super intelligence to solve every problem for you.  It is about finding your own way and who you become because of it.  Destroy is the only choice that allows that to happen for the people that exist in Shepard's time.  But, because Shepard taught EDI that and Destroy might be the more natural choice, the best example (EDI) of what Destroy will do (create self-reliant people) must die.  F this.  If they wanted to write some expose on the meaning of life and then smash it in the face, ME wasn't the place to do it.

And I still have a problem anyway with picking any choice and refuse is ignorant in the way they created it.

---  I think that Shepard can tell them that he's in control of the Reapers.  Or that he is the Reapers.  Or the Reapers are Shepard.  Or whatever.  The thing is... why would anyone believe him?  As proof that I was controling the Reapers, I'd have them all self destruct, or fly away forever, or jettison their power cores so the Alliance could take them apart without becoming indoctrinated.  There's really no way to have Reapers rebuilding cities there unless people Derp Out in the same way that the Original Starboy did.  "Look, Reapers are coming to kill us by rebuilding our cities so we need to kill the Reapers by accepting them so that way we'll all die to stop the Reapers from destroying the cities by saving us so we can destroy them by making them into cities where they'll die to kill us by saving us!"

Maybe if Control killed all the current Reapers, but allowed Shepard to make some kind of new, DIFFERENT LOOKING giant robots.  Like, "Shep-ers," that don't look like horrible cuttlefish, speak english in non monstrous voices, and have no pre-existing tendencies to KILL EVERYONE EVERWHERE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES!

---  Refuse would have been so much better if we at least got Slideshows of all of our surviving friends and allies either dying valiantly while fighting and/or destroying reapers, or (for the less combat oriented ones) planting more Liara Beacons around.  They could even have a Liara voiceoever where she explains that the Crucible is a **** idea, and that no future cycle should waste the time and resources to build it, and that they should just build up and lie in wait: or better yet, go find the Reapers while they're sleeping and murder them before they can wake up.

Modifié par BlueStorm83, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:06 .

[Chris Priestly]

The Extended Cut is now available globally, so this thread is closed. If you have EC questions, please use the Storyline forum or the technical support forum for your playfrm. Thanks.


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