2621 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Thanatos144 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

still has space hitler so cannot be that good.

I don't know if we got the option to tell the little tosser what to go do with itself and actually fight the Reapers it wouldn't be so bad.
My biggest issue remains that you are forced to surrender to this vile creature.

I thought the object was to save the galaxy not destroy it by throwing a tantrum.

I thought the object was to save the galaxy from the Reapers, not do their bidding just like Saren.

[Thanatos144]

Vilegrim wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

still has space hitler so cannot be that good.

I don't know if we got the option to tell the little tosser what to go do with itself and actually fight the Reapers it wouldn't be so bad.
My biggest issue remains that you are forced to surrender to this vile creature.

I thought the object was to save the galaxy not destroy it by throwing a tantrum.

Some victories aren't worth it.  Agreeing with Space Hitler is one of those.   Better to go down fighting then buy into it's sick, murderous propoganda.

Then you really not going to like this game with its tough decisions.

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...
My biggest issue remains that you are forced to surrender to this vile creature.

Synthesis is somewhat debateable, but destroying or controlling the Reapers is pretty much the exact opposite of surrendering.  In fact, the Catalyst essentially surrenders to you by telling you how your weapon can function.  You're no more forced to surrender to the Catalyst than you are forced to destroy the Collector base at the end of ME2.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 23 juin 2012 - 11:03 .

[Thanatos144]

The Angry One wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

still has space hitler so cannot be that good.

I don't know if we got the option to tell the little tosser what to go do with itself and actually fight the Reapers it wouldn't be so bad.
My biggest issue remains that you are forced to surrender to this vile creature.

I thought the object was to save the galaxy not destroy it by throwing a tantrum.

I thought the object was to save the galaxy from the Reapers, not do their bidding just like Saren.

Seeing as the reapers lose in all choices how are you doing thier bidding?

[Geneaux486]

Thanatos144 wrote...
Seeing as the reapers lose in all choices how are you doing thier bidding?

You're not.  It's a popular hyperbole to say that Synthesis is what Saren wanted (which is in and of itself untrue, as the completion of Saren's mission would have simply resulted in the start of the usual extinction cycle, not any type of synthesis.).

Modifié par Geneaux486, 23 juin 2012 - 11:06 .

[Renmiri1]

Biotic Budah wrote...

I will reserve judgement until I play the DLC. However that podcast just seemed to say "We're making our awesome ending even better!". If that is the case then they missed the point. The ending stunk. That's how we got into this mess in the first place. I will remain hopeful that with a 1.9 gig DLC, which is bigger than the Shadow broker DLC of ME2, will be much more than just a plain epilogue.

I am of two hearts on this.

On one hand it is awesome to see Bioware spending time and resources to address an issue fans care deeply about and for that I am grateful and happy at BW regardless of the content of the DLC.

On the other hand, it seems by the podcast that they did not listen to any player feedback, didn't read the thread after thread with pleas to make playing ME3 less painful. yes, playing ME3 is painful  to me  and a lot of other fans, because it takes away your choices and makes you answer to situations as you never would on ME2 and ME1. The dialog wheel was cut to 2 options, the choices you are given are meaningless to the end... You can not do a lot of the things you hoped you could.... Not one of those things will be fixed by more dialog with the star child or more footage of Joker on a desolate planet. I'm going to steel myself to play it again at least once, to see the DLC but my hopes for it are pretty low.

In any case, BW has my sincere thank you and my gratitude regardless of how underwhelmed I am with the actual DLC. The fact that you tried was really awesome.

Unfortunately it probably won't be enough to make me enjoy ME3 or the ME universe after Sheppard dies/ gets to be Reaper remote control or reaper smoothie. There is just no way for me to accept that. I'm sorry.

[Vilegrim]

Thanatos144 wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

still has space hitler so cannot be that good.

I don't know if we got the option to tell the little tosser what to go do with itself and actually fight the Reapers it wouldn't be so bad.
My biggest issue remains that you are forced to surrender to this vile creature.

I thought the object was to save the galaxy not destroy it by throwing a tantrum.

Some victories aren't worth it.  Agreeing with Space Hitler is one of those.   Better to go down fighting then buy into it's sick, murderous propoganda.

Then you really not going to like this game with its tough decisions.

Standing by your morals no matter what the cost is the hardest decision of all.   It is what truly heroic people do,  the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising for instance,  or the resistance, or the consentious objectors who faced firing squads rather than put on a uniform.

That is what I am asking for the chance to do, to choose to prove him wrong.  He offers 3 choices, all of which still achieve his goals, he still wins.  I say no.  Better to stand together, taking as many reapers down as possible and buy hope for the next cycle, than to be forced to wipe out individualty, or entire races to salve the ego of a monster.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 23 juin 2012 - 11:09 .

[Geneaux486]

Vilegrim wrote...
Standing by your morals no matter what the cost is the hardest decision of all.   It is what truly heroic people do,  the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising for instance,  or the resistance, or the consentious objectors who faced firing squads rather than put on a uniform.

Shepard refusing to use the Crucible would involve invalidating all the hard work everyone put into building the thing and hooking it up.  He would essentially be surrendering organics to the Reapers by not using it based solely on misguided pride.  The Crucible is a weapon of the organics, not the Reapers.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 23 juin 2012 - 11:09 .

[The Angry One]

Thanatos144 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Thanatos144 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...

still has space hitler so cannot be that good.

I don't know if we got the option to tell the little tosser what to go do with itself and actually fight the Reapers it wouldn't be so bad.
My biggest issue remains that you are forced to surrender to this vile creature.

I thought the object was to save the galaxy not destroy it by throwing a tantrum.

I thought the object was to save the galaxy from the Reapers, not do their bidding just like Saren.

Seeing as the reapers lose in all choices how are you doing thier bidding?

Because it's what the Catalyst wants in all 3 cases.

Destroy, you follow the Catalyst's anti-synthetic agenda. Reapers are killed, but only because it allows it. The galaxy still follows the will of the Reaper commander right to the end.

Control, you preserve the Reapers as is. They are still relevant with no guarantee that they won't return to their standard ways.

Synthesis, outright Reaper victory. Reaper philosophy is vindicated. All life is forcibly remade in the image of the Reapers, all organic and synthetic life is essentially destroyed and replaced. The Reapers remain, and no longer attack because we are a life form they now tolerate. This is by the way the choice the Catalyst really wants you to make.

[kratosmr]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The damage is done. Mr. Hudson will not be able to face the community again in the same capacity. It doesn't matter what he does now.

The EC is a net cast. Made from smarminess and closure. That will work because it always does. I don't mind at this point because I'm more than pleased to be getting something at all.

If I don't like it, I can always use the original cut as my preferred version, with my personal head canon intact, which is what they wanted you to do in the first place.

Uhm they wanted us to pay up to £60 to make up our own story? Really? Seriously they need to admit they screwed up. I am waiting to see what the EC brings but the fact that they cannot admit this and that they have not apologised for thier behaviour is reprehensible.

Modifié par kratosmr, 23 juin 2012 - 11:13 .

[Vilegrim]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...
Standing by your morals no matter what the cost is the hardest decision of all.   It is what truly heroic people do,  the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising for instance,  or the resistance, or the consentious objectors who faced firing squads rather than put on a uniform.

Shepard refusing to use the Crucible would involve invalidating all the hard work everyone put into building the thing and hooking it up.  He would essentially be surrendering organics to the Reapers by not using it based solely on misguided pride.  The Crucible is a weapon of the organics, not the Reapers.

WRONG it is the reapers ultimate weapon, they win no matter what.  All the choices fit with Space Hitlers racial views.  Either kill all synthetics, destroy individuality or delay the slaughter by a short time, all three are reaper victories.

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...
Destroy, you follow the Catalyst's anti-synthetic agenda. Reapers are killed, but only because it allows it. The galaxy still follows the will of the Reaper commander right to the end.

The Catalyst is never implied to have any control over what the Crucible can do.  Its functions are based on your EMS, which includes the team that built the thing.  Destroy is in no way what the Catalyst would want.

Control, you preserve the Reapers as is. They are still relevant with no guarantee that they won't return to their standard ways.

Except the little message at the end telling us we ended the Reaper threat.

Synthesis, outright Reaper victory. Reaper philosophy is vindicated. All life is forcibly remade in the image of the Reapers, all organic and synthetic life is essentially destroyed and replaced. The Reapers remain, and no longer attack because we are a life form they now tolerate. This is by the way the choice the Catalyst really wants you to make.

Synthesis also invalidates everything the Reapers are about.  It's a loss for them because it means everything they've gone through to carry out their twisted extinction cycles was essentially pointless because organics found a better way long ago.

WRONG it is the reapers ultimate weapon, they win no matter what.  All the choices fit with Space Hitlers racial views.  Either kill all synthetics, destroy individuality or delay the slaughter by a short time, all three are reaper victories.

Headcannon.  There is nothing in the game to suggest that the Reapers have anything to do with the Crucible's existence, and all evidence suggests that they did not.  It's not the Catalyst's weapon therefore if it were to coincide with the Catalyst's goals (which it doesn't), it would be a coincidence.  But it isn't, because the Crucible stops the Reapers no matter what.  There's really no debate there, they had no known involvement in its design, they didn't build it, they didn't plug it into the Citadel, and they didn't pull the trigger.  All done by organics.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 23 juin 2012 - 11:15 .

[Vilegrim]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Destroy, you follow the Catalyst's anti-synthetic agenda. Reapers are killed, but only because it allows it. The galaxy still follows the will of the Reaper commander right to the end.

The Catalyst is never implied to have any control over what the Crucible can do.  Its functions are based on your EMS, which includes the team that built the thing.  Destroy is in no way what the Catalyst would want.

Control, you preserve the Reapers as is. They are still relevant with no guarantee that they won't return to their standard ways.

Except the little message at the end telling us we ended the Reaper threat.

Synthesis, outright Reaper victory. Reaper philosophy is vindicated. All life is forcibly remade in the image of the Reapers, all organic and synthetic life is essentially destroyed and replaced. The Reapers remain, and no longer attack because we are a life form they now tolerate. This is by the way the choice the Catalyst really wants you to make.

Synthesis also invalidates everything the Reapers are about.  It's a loss for them because it means everything they've gone through to carry out their twisted extinction cycles was essentially pointless because organics found a better way long ago.

WRONG it is the reapers ultimate weapon, they win no matter what.  All the choices fit with Space Hitlers racial views.  Either kill all synthetics, destroy individuality or delay the slaughter by a short time, all three are reaper victories.

Headcannon.  There is nothing in the game to suggest that the Reapers have anything to do with the Crucible's existence, and all evidence suggests that they did not.  It's not the Catalyst's weapon therefore if it were to coincide with the Catalyst's goals (which it doesn't), it would be a coincidence.  But it isn't, because the Crucible stops the Reapers no matter what.

#


Thjey stop because they have won.  That simple. There views are validated, and ther goals achieved. 

Modifié par Vilegrim, 23 juin 2012 - 11:15 .

[Geneaux486]

Thjey stop because they have won.  That simple.

Except that doesn't happen.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Catalyst is never implied to have any control over what the Crucible can do.  Its functions are based on your EMS, which includes the team that built the thing.  Destroy is in no way what the Catalyst would want.

The Catalyst or it's creators designed the Crucible, there is no other explanation that can logically explain it's origins.
Moreover, it is what the Catalyst wants. If it is to be defeated, it will remake the galaxy according to it's plans one way or another.

It is not it's true desire - that's synthesis - but rather this than conventional victory..

Except the little message at the end telling us we ended the Reaper threat.

Because a message telling us to buy DLC can be considered in-universe fact.

Synthesis also invalidates everything the Reapers are about.  It's a loss for them because it means everything they've gone through to carry out their twisted extinction cycles was essentially pointless because organics found a better way long ago.

No it doesn't, because until organics "proved themselves worthy" by actually building the Crucible, then by demented Reaper logic they have no right to become as they are.
Organics did not design the Crucible. For organics to have designed it, they would have to know about the Catalyst.

Modifié par The Angry One, 23 juin 2012 - 11:17 .

[Thanatos144]

Shepard is not Rambo.

[Velocithon]

You know it's funny, at first I was all like "this ending is so bad" and I was on these forums for like 2 months actively protesting it.

Now, I just flat out do not care anymore. It's still awful and the entire game still feels horribly rushed, but I just don't care.

This is probably a good thing since the EC will either do nothing for me, in which nothing changes, or rekindles my love for the franchise.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Headcannon.  There is nothing in the game to suggest that the Reapers have anything to do with the Crucible's existence, and all evidence suggests that they did not.  It's not the Catalyst's weapon therefore if it were to coincide with the Catalyst's goals (which it doesn't), it would be a coincidence.  But it isn't, because the Crucible stops the Reapers no matter what.  There's really no debate there, they had no known involvement in its design, they didn't build it, they didn't plug it into the Citadel, and they didn't pull the trigger.  All done by organics.

Once again. For organics to have designed the Crucible is like me writing software for your computer without knowing what OS it's running or even what hardware it has.

[Vilegrim]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Thjey stop because they have won.  That simple.

Except that doesn't happen.

yes it does, actually listen to space hitler, all the options spring from his views, any of them is a victory for him.

[Taboo]

Can I just say one thing?

It's canon. Not cannon.

One is used in stories. One fires cannon balls.

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...
The Catalyst or it's creators designed the Crucible, there is no other explanation that can logically explain it's origins.

Its stated origin, that it was designed and modified through countless cycles, is logical, and not contradicted.  The Catalyst is never implied to have a hand in the Crucible, therefore there is no reason for me to think it does.

Moreover, it is what the Catalyst wants. If it is to be defeated, it will remake the galaxy according to it's plans one way or another.

At least you admit that it's a defeat on the part of the Reapers.  Still, the only thing the Catalyst truly wants is the continuity of organic life via the Reaper extinction cycle.  Anything less contradicts their perception that Reapers are the only solution and are perfect.

Because a message telling us to buy DLC can be considered in-universe fact.

A message that both tells us to buy DLC and tells us that we ended the Reaper threat.  The little advertisement involved is no reason to dismiss the statement of fact contained therein.  They wouldn't have included it if it weren't intended to be true.  It would have just said "Buy the DLC" and left it at that.

No it doesn't, because until organics "proved themselves worthy" by actually building the Crucible, then by demented Reaper logic they have no right to become as they are.
Organics did not design the Crucible. For organics to have designed it, they would have to know about the Catalyst.

Incorrect.  Organics could have designed it without knowing about the Catalyst (and according to the game they did).  Hopefully this will be expanded upon in the EC.  Really, as long as they give us some actual evidence that synthetics have always tried to wipe out organics in previous cycles, there will no longer be a question about whether or not there was a genuine problem there.

Once again. For organics to have designed the Crucible is like me writing software for your computer without knowing what OS it's running or even what hardware it has.

No, it would be like you finding software that was written by someone else that knew all of those things.

yes it does, actually listen to space hitler, all the options spring from his views, any of them is a victory for him.

I did listen to him, which is why I know that your statement is incorrect.

Can I just say one thing?

It's canon. Not cannon.

One is used in stories. One fires cannon balls.

Hey man what's up.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 23 juin 2012 - 11:23 .

[Vilegrim]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
The Catalyst or it's creators designed the Crucible, there is no other explanation that can logically explain it's origins.

Its stated origin, that it was designed and modified through countless cycles, is logical, and not contradicted.  The Catalyst is never implied to have a hand in the Crucible, therefore there is no reason for me to think it does.

Moreover, it is what the Catalyst wants. If it is to be defeated, it will remake the galaxy according to it's plans one way or another.

At least you admit that it's a defeat on the part of the Reapers.  Still, the only thing the Catalyst truly wants is the continuity of organic life via the Reaper extinction cycle.  Anything less contradicts their perception that Reapers are the only solution and are perfect.

Because a message telling us to buy DLC can be considered in-universe fact.

A message that both tells us to buy DLC and tells us that we ended the Reaper threat.  The little advertisement involved is no reason to dismiss the statement of fact contained therein.  They wouldn't have included it if it weren't intended to be true.  It would have just said "Buy the DLC" and left it at that.

No it doesn't, because until organics "proved themselves worthy" by actually building the Crucible, then by demented Reaper logic they have no right to become as they are.
Organics did not design the Crucible. For organics to have designed it, they would have to know about the Catalyst.

Incorrect.  Organics could have designed it without knowing about the Catalyst (and according to the game they did).  Hopefully this will be expanded upon in the EC.  Really, as long as they give us some actual evidence that synthetics have always tried to wipe out organics in previous cycles, there will no longer be a question about whether or not there was a genuine problem there.

Once again. For organics to have designed the Crucible is like me writing software for your computer without knowing what OS it's running or even what hardware it has.

No, it would be like you finding software that was written by someone else that knew all of those things.

yes it does, actually listen to space hitler, all the options spring from his views, any of them is a victory for him.

I did listen to him, which is why I know that your statement is incorrect.

Can I just say one thing?

It's canon. Not cannon.

One is used in stories. One fires cannon balls.

Hey man what's up.

Then you must have a completly different set of speeches than me. 

[Redbelle]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Destroy, you follow the Catalyst's anti-synthetic agenda. Reapers are killed, but only because it allows it. The galaxy still follows the will of the Reaper commander right to the end.

The Catalyst is never implied to have any control over what the Crucible can do.  Its functions are based on your EMS, which includes the team that built the thing.  Destroy is in no way what the Catalyst would want.

Control, you preserve the Reapers as is. They are still relevant with no guarantee that they won't return to their standard ways.

Except the little message at the end telling us we ended the Reaper threat.

Synthesis, outright Reaper victory. Reaper philosophy is vindicated. All life is forcibly remade in the image of the Reapers, all organic and synthetic life is essentially destroyed and replaced. The Reapers remain, and no longer attack because we are a life form they now tolerate. This is by the way the choice the Catalyst really wants you to make.

Synthesis also invalidates everything the Reapers are about.  It's a loss for them because it means everything they've gone through to carry out their twisted extinction cycles was essentially pointless because organics found a better way long ago.

WRONG it is the reapers ultimate weapon, they win no matter what.  All the choices fit with Space Hitlers racial views.  Either kill all synthetics, destroy individuality or delay the slaughter by a short time, all three are reaper victories.

Headcannon.  There is nothing in the game to suggest that the Reapers have anything to do with the Crucible's existence, and all evidence suggests that they did not.  It's not the Catalyst's weapon therefore if it were to coincide with the Catalyst's goals (which it doesn't), it would be a coincidence.  But it isn't, because the Crucible stops the Reapers no matter what.  There's really no debate there, they had no known involvement in its design, the didn't build it, they didn't plug it into the Citadel, and they didn't pull the trigger.  All done by organics.

Don't some of these choices and consequences fly in the face of long established wisdom set up over the course of 3 games?

I'm thinking speicifically of control. Every attempt to control the Reapers has met with failure. But in the ending they allow it because of a crucible and the Catalyst says so? Sry but there was not nearly enough foreshadowing to make control, as an option, convincing as a forward narrative. The fact that many are still pointing to the claim of 'you don't control the Reapers, they control you', is testament to the lack of groundwork set up to make control a convincing option. It flies in the face of established events and conversations witnessed throughout the trilogy.

It's one of the area's where the lack of knowledge of the Reapers comes back to bite the end game. By not knowing how to circumvent control, Reapers place over their thralls, it is difficult to accept the Catalyst's declaration that Shepard can control the Reapers. This also has the knockon effect of making his statements suspect which, I suspect, led to the postualtion that the Catalyst lied to Shepard. The effect then continues to snowball.

[Taboo]

Not much is up. Unless you were joking.

The negativity here is almost too much for ME, and I though I was a cynic.

[Geneaux486]

Vilegrim wrote...
Then you must have a completly different set of speeches than me. 

Unless your version of the game involved the Reapers actively building the Crucible, I doubt it.

Not much is up. Unless you were joking.

The negativity here is almost too much for ME, and I though I was a cynic.

I wasn't joking, and I don't mean to come off as negative.  I genuinelly enjoy talking about the game with ya'll.

I'm thinking speicifically of control. Every attempt to control the Reapers has met with failure. But in the ending they allow it because of a crucible and the Catalyst says so? Sry but there was not nearly enough foreshadowing to make control, as an option, convincing as a forward narrative. The fact that many are still pointing to the claim of 'you don't control the Reapers, they control you', is testament to the lack of groundwork set up to make control a convincing option. It flies in the face of established events and conversations witnessed throughout the trilogy.

We only had one known control attempt prior to meeting the Catalyst, and the Illusive Man was trying to do it by using Reaper tech itself, which was just about the worst idea ever.  If the Crucible is or organic design (and I believe what's stated in the game to be true) then it was a device that at some point was modified to succesfully control the Reapers, independent of their own tech.  The Illusive Man suggesting that such was the case throughout the game was sufficient foreshadowing for me.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 23 juin 2012 - 11:29 .