2621 réponses à ce sujet

[Rafficus III]

The Angry One wrote...

Yes it's vastly unrealistic for me to expect Commander Shepard to fight the Reapers and not surrender to them.
It's vastly unrealistic for me to expect Joker, who declared his undying loyalty and guilt over getting Shepard killed to at least try to stay around and save Shepard.

It's vastly unrealistic to expect the themes and characterisations of the entire trilogy to carry on into the ending, and that given that the ending failed to do this that the creators would recognise their obvious mistakes and fix them.

Is this what BioWare has become? Where even basic, logical things are now vastly unrealistic?

So I'm going to guess this is towards me. Most of what you posted all can be answered by EC, which you have not seen nor know what is contained within. A point I made within my post about you know.... not judging the EC until it's released. Is Bioware without err? No, as they did turn a few of the central themes upside down (hence why I mentioned that I was critical of certain areas within ME3). Was that the point of my post? No, but like I said before, some people are just so upset that sometimes the main points slide by because they're too caught up in the emotions. Like I said, don't judge something you have yet to experience based on simple emotions or your own biased account. It may be phenomenal, it may be utter garbage, but we won't know until Tuesday and continued tangents about one's disdain for Walters/Hudson is more of a broken record rather than the illusion of productive criticism. Anyways, I'm done here. 

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Its stated origin, that it was designed and modified through countless cycles, is logical, and not contradicted.  The Catalyst is never implied to have a hand in the Crucible, therefore there is no reason for me to think it does.

It is contradicted the moment it manages to interface with the Catalyst.

At least you admit that it's a defeat on the part of the Reapers.  Still, the only thing the Catalyst truly wants is the continuity of organic life via the Reaper extinction cycle.  Anything less contradicts their perception that Reapers are the only solution and are perfect.

The Catalysts believes the Reaper form of life is the pinnacle of evolution, as the Reapers themselves do.
That it regards Reapers themselves ultimately as disposable tools to it's agenda isn't surprising for such a murderous psychopath.

A message that both tells us to buy DLC and tells us that we ended the Reaper threat.  The little advertisement involved is no reason to dismiss the statement of fact contained therein.  They wouldn't have included it if it weren't intended to be true.  It would have just said "Buy the DLC" and left it at that.

In the end, that particular Reaper threat is ended, one way or another. It says nothing about future threats.
Also, if you have surrendered, you have ended that threat. To end a threat does not necesarilly mean you have overome it.

Incorrect.  Organics could have designed it without knowing about the Catalyst (and according to the game they did).  Hopefully this will be expanded upon in the EC.  Really, as long as they give us some actual evidence that synthetics have always tried to wipe out organics in previous cycles, there will no longer be a question about whether or not there was a genuine problem there.

Wrong. The Protheans knew about the Citadel. At the very end.. and only as a signal amplifier but others had to have known about the Citadel before then.
The fact remains the Citadel is more than a signal amplifier, and the Crucible directly interfaces with the Catalyst. You cannot make a device to interface with another device and alter it's software without knowing about it.

And before you say it's possible someone knew about it.. if they knew about it.. they'd put it in the plans along with everything else.
Also just why are the Crucible plans consistently the only thing to survive after billions of years and absolutely nothing else?

No, it would be like you finding software that was written by someone else that knew all of those things.

Except nobody has ever encountered the Catalyst before, and nobody ever thought to write this down if they somehow did.

[Vilegrim]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...
Then you must have a completly different set of speeches than me. 

Unless your version of the game involved the Reapers actively building the Crucible, I doubt it.

Not much is up. Unless you were joking.

The negativity here is almost too much for ME, and I though I was a cynic.

I wasn't joking.

Actively building? No.  But since it fulfils there goals anyway, and drains huge amounts of resources better spent on making anti-matter bombs and other such WMD, creating it and letting it out via indoctrinated agents x cycles ago? That would make alot of sense.

[N7L4D]

[**comment removed by mod**]

Modifié par RaenImrahl, 24 juin 2012 - 04:32 .

[Geneaux486]

The Angry One wrote...
It is contradicted the moment it manages to interface with the Catalyst.

But it doesn't necesarilly interface with the Catalyst.  It draws power from the Citadel, as Vendetta said it was modified to do, but the Catalyst has no known involvement beyond telling you how it works.  In fact, he states himself that he can't activate it, suggesting an inability to interface with the thing at all.

The Catalysts believes the Reaper form of life is the pinnacle of evolution, as the Reapers themselves do.
That it regards Reapers themselves ultimately as disposable tools to it's agenda isn't surprising for such a murderous psychopath.

I'm not convinced that it does view the Reapers as disposable.  This much resistance in a cycle was probably not typical for them, and it's essentially a direct result of the Illos Prothean team meddling with the Citadel in the previous cycle.

In the end, that particular Reaper threat is ended, one way or another. It says nothing about future threats.
Also, if you have surrendered, you have ended that threat. To end a threat does not necesarilly mean you have overome it.

Given that we see the Reapers either die or withdraw from the battle, we have enough evidence to assume that the Reaper threat is ended as that mesasge said.

Wrong. The Protheans knew about the Citadel. At the very end.. and only as a signal amplifier but others had to have known about the Citadel before then.
The fact remains the Citadel is more than a signal amplifier, and the Crucible directly interfaces with the Catalyst. You cannot make a device to interface with another device and alter it's software without knowing about it.

The Protheans were able to learn secrets about the Citadel in their investigation.  Entirely possible that previous cycle organics did the same.  The Crucible doesn't directly interface with the Catalyst, it simply draws power from the Citadel.

And before you say it's possible someone knew about it.. if they knew about it.. they'd put it in the plans along with everything else.
Also just why are the Crucible plans consistently the only thing to survive after billions of years and absolutely nothing else?

Other things did survive.  Liara was able to determine from Prothean ruins alone that there was a cycle of extinction.  As for the Crucible surviving, the nature of each extinction cycle is that it's carried out essentially the same way repeatedly.  The Reapers pour in through the Citadel relay, isolate the systems, and methodically attack each planet.  Theoretically, a method that ensures the survival of the Crucible plans once would also work for each of the following cycles.

Except nobody has ever encountered the Catalyst before, and nobody ever thought to write this down if they somehow did.

My theory on why the Crucible plans didn't mention that or other important things is because either the Illusive Man corrupted the data with his theft at the beginning, or the plans were simply damaged and incomplete when Liara discovered them.

But since it fulfils there goals anyway, and drains huge amounts of resources better spent on making anti-matter bombs and other such WMD, creating it and letting it out via indoctrinated agents x cycles ago? That would make alot of sense.

Their goal is to turn organic races into Reapers.  None of the Crucible choices result in this happening.  The choices either kill, enslave, or invalidate the Reapers.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 23 juin 2012 - 11:40 .

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

But it doesn't necesarilly interface with the Catalyst.  It draws power from the Citadel, as Vendetta said it was modified to do, but the Catalyst has no known involvement beyond telling you how it works.  In fact, he states himself that he can't activate it, suggesting an inability to interface with the thing at all.

"The Crucible has changed me"

Moreover, it knows what the Crucible's functions are. Either it knew about them beforehand, or the Crucible interfaced with it and told it. Pick one.

I'm not convinced that it does.  This much resistance in a cycle was probably not typical for them, and it's essentially a direct result of the Illos Prothean team meddling with the Citadel in the previous cycle.

"Synthesis is the final evolution of life."

Given that we see the Reapers either die or withdraw from the battle, we have enough evidence to assume that the Reaper threat is ended as that mesasge said.

They withdraw for now. Nothing says they don't turn right around later. Nothing.
Yes, destroy is far more permanent, but again the galaxy has been shaped into something the Catalyst approves of one way or another even if it had to sacrifice it's pawns to do it.

The Protheans were able to learn secrets about the Citadel in their investigation.  Entirely possible that previous cycle organics did the same.  The Crucible doesn't directly interface with the Catalyst, it simply draws power from the Citadel.

See above. And again, did they all get hit on the head and forget to write it down?

Other things did survive.  Liara was able to determine from Prothean ruins alone that there was a cycle of extinction.  As for the Crucible surviving, the nature of each extinction cycle is that it's carried out essentially the same way repeatedly.  The Reapers pour in through the Citadel relay, isolate the systems, and methodically attack each planet.  Theoretically, a method that ensures the survival of the Crucible plans once would also work for each of the following cycles.

Ruins and records survive for 50,000 years. Maybe even a few more. Just what records do we have on the Inusannon? Barely anything. The Crucible plans on the other hand survived for BILLIONS of years.

My theory on why the Crucible plans didn't mention that or other important things is because either the Illusive Man corrupted the data with his theft at the beginning, or the plans were simply damaged and incomplete when Liara discovered them.

That's some pretty specific corruption there, which makes little sense as TIM needs the Crucible to be completed as much as anyone else.

Modifié par The Angry One, 23 juin 2012 - 11:56 .

[Redbelle]

I'm thinking speicifically of control. Every attempt to control the Reapers has met with failure. But in the ending they allow it because of a crucible and the Catalyst says so? Sry but there was not nearly enough foreshadowing to make control, as an option, convincing as a forward narrative. The fact that many are still pointing to the claim of 'you don't control the Reapers, they control you', is testament to the lack of groundwork set up to make control a convincing option. It flies in the face of established events and conversations witnessed throughout the trilogy.

We only had one known control attempt prior to meeting the Catalyst, and the Illusive Man was trying to do it by using Reaper tech itself, which was just about the worst idea ever.  If the Crucible is or organic design (and I believe what's stated in the game to be true) then it was a device that at some point was modified to succesfully control the Reapers, independent of their own tech.  The Illusive Man suggesting that such was the case throughout the game was sufficient foreshadowing for me.

While there has been one direct effort to assume control of the Reapers, there have been others, in other forms. Saren tried to manipulate the Reapers by proving species were too useful to be harvested. The Cerberus team who tried to unlock the secrets of the Reaper tech likewise became indoctrinated. TIM also became indoctrinated though at a point much earlier than when he had those implant control thingee's implanted.

The point is, indoctrination is as powerful as it is insidious. That's the real issue with control. The mere presence of a Reaper can begin the process. The mere presence of an indoctrinated indivual can also begin the process.

I would have an easier time believing that control were possible if the Cat had said that by choosing control you overwrite the old indoctrination signal with a new signal based on what Shep wants them to do. That way the Reapers take on the new signal and are fundamentally altered so that they are not the Reapers we knew as giant killing machines. The narrative however does not allude to this possibility. Only that control is possible and TIM wasn't the guy to do it due to previous Reaper influence.

Hopefully the ECDLC will flesh out the case the Cat makes for control being a viable option in that it is safe from indoctrination as, to me, Indoc has been one of the Reapers greatest weapons.

On a related note it's also a concept BW have visited before in the original ST:KOTOR. Bastilla delivered the line, I recall, of how making your enemies your allies deprives your eneny and feeds your forces.

*edit* One other thing came to mind. If the Crucible and catalyst are seperate in their construction. Why does the Mars records point to needing the Catalyst to make it work?

Also why does the Cat seemingly know how it operates if he had nothing to do with it? Granted he has powers but given the mass and scope of the construction............ let's just say I want the Cat in my IT troubleshooting department.

There must be some connection given the protheans, I assume it them, knew of and identified the Cat as a missing component.

Modifié par Redbelle, 23 juin 2012 - 11:53 .

[BlueStorm83]

Thanatos144 wrote...

three days

---  Hey!  Bubbles, you made it!  Good to see you here.  It's not a real party without you!

[Geneaux486]

"The Crucible has changed me"

Moreover, it knows what the Crucible's functions are. Either it knew about them beforehand, or the Crucible interfaced with it and told it. Pick one.

Or he simply scanned it or something.  Like I pointed out before, the Catalyst is incapable of using the thing, so it's highly unlikely that the thing was built intending to have him interface with it. 

"Synthesis is the final evolution of life."

The possibility of which was not known to the Catalyst prior to the Crucible connecting to the Citadel.

They withdraw for now. Nothing says they don't turn right around later. Nothing.
Yes, destroy is far more permanent, but again the galaxy has been shaped into something the Catalyst approves of one way or another even if it had to sacrifice it's paws to do it.

The fact that the game tells us Shepard ended the Reaper threat tells us they didn't come back hostile.

Ruins and records survive for 50,000 years. Maybe even a few more. Just what records do we have on the Inusannon? Barely anything. The Crucible plans on the other hand survived for BILLIONS of years.

As I said, its method of concealment in one cycle would work for each following cycle, as the Reapers never had to deviate from their patterns until our cycle.  If it was put in a place where the Reapers would have missed it once, they would have missed it every other time as well.  The fact that it was found on Mars in our cycle suggests a possibility that the plans were simply hidden in the vicinity of unevolved civilizations that the Reapers had no reason to visit.

That's some pretty specific corruption there, which makes little sense as TIM needs the Crucible to be completed as much as anyone else.

Keep in mind that TIM knew things about the Crucible that the Alliance did not, specifically that it could be used to control the Reapers.  Perhaps he got the plans intact, or mostly intact himself.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 23 juin 2012 - 11:59 .

[BlueStorm83]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Vilegrim wrote...
Standing by your morals no matter what the cost is the hardest decision of all.   It is what truly heroic people do,  the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising for instance,  or the resistance, or the consentious objectors who faced firing squads rather than put on a uniform.

Shepard refusing to use the Crucible would involve invalidating all the hard work everyone put into building the thing and hooking it up.  He would essentially be surrendering organics to the Reapers by not using it based solely on misguided pride.  The Crucible is a weapon of the organics, not the Reapers.

---  The crucible is a weapon of unknown origin and purpose.  The very fact that the Catalyst, who admits to controlling the reapers, suggests that you use it puts the idea into my head that no matter what I should NOT use it.

[Geneaux486]

BlueStorm83 wrote...

---  The crucible is a weapon of unknown origin and purpose.  The very fact that the Catalyst, who admits to controlling the reapers, suggests that you use it puts the idea into my head that no matter what I should NOT use it.

A leap of faith is required in activating it, to be sure, but for both Shepard the character and the player, it is the only way forward.  As we see in the cinematic afterwards, the Crucible behaves in the way the Catalyst told you it would.

[The Angry One]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Or he simply scanned it or something.  Like I pointed out before, the Catalyst is incapable of using the thing, so it's highly unlikely that the thing was built intending to have him interface with it. 

Logically, the Catalyst cannot. Aside from destroy, but then it may not be able to "self-terminate".
It cannot use control. This is redundant. It already controls.
It cannot engage synthesis, it requires an organic/synthetic template to initiate the process.

The possibility of which was not known to the Catalyst prior to the Crucible connecting to the Citadel.

The possibility already exists in the Reapers. The method by which all life in the galaxy is altered is not known.

The fact that the game tells us Shepard ended the Reaper threat tells us they didn't come back hostile.

Again, it says this specifc threat was ended.

As I said, its method of concealment in one cycle would work for each following cycle, as the Reapers never had to deviate from their patterns until our cycle.  If it was put in a place where the Reapers would have missed it once, they would have missed it every other time as well.

Then it would work for other things. Where are the records of the Inusannon, and of the trillions of species that came before? None of them thought themselves worth preserving in any manner?

Keep in mind that TIM knew things about the Crucible that the Alliance did not, specifically that it could be used to control the Reapers.  Perhaps he got the plans intact, or mostly intact himself.

Yes and they never say why he knew. He pretty much assumes that it is so. The people building the Crucible should find out something about it's functions but they don't due to plot-induced stupidity.
Again, TIM is not building the Crucible. So he needs the others to build it, which means them having full access to the plans works in his favour.

[David7204]

I am so scared they're just going to add a few lines of dialogue to 'answer' all the uncomfortable questions and then move straight to an epilogue...

Modifié par David7204, 24 juin 2012 - 12:10 .

[brummyuk19]

I am going to cry if this does not work out. I hope we get to see some more space battle scenes of our war assets fighting... you don't see the geth if you have the qurians along for the ride, which sucks plus you don't see them doing any fighting you just see them coming in that's it!

[Geneaux486]

Logically, the Catalyst cannot. Aside from destroy, but then it may not be able to "self-terminate".
It cannot use control. This is redundant. It already controls.
It cannot engage synthesis, it requires an organic/synthetic template to initiate the process.

The Crucible relies on those things, as it is independant of the Catalyst.  If it did have control over what the Crucible was capable of, it would not lay out its own destruction as a viable option.

The possibility already exists in the Reapers. The method by which all life in the galaxy is altered is not known.

It doesn't exist in the Reapers.  What they do is make everything else into more of them.  While we do not know how synthesis works, we do know that it does not result in the creation of more Reapers, as we see people retain their individuality.

Again, it says this specifc threat was ended.

Yes, specifically the Reaper threat.

Then it would work for other things. Where are the records of the Inusannon, and of the trillions of species that came before? None of them thought themselves worth preserving in any manner?

It probably did work for other things, just not beyond one cycle.  All we had were records of the Protheans.  The Protheans had records of the Inusannon, and so on and so forth.  Hell, some things we thought were prothean tech were actually Inusannon (like Illos).  If Liara had remained an archeologist, she may very well have discovered more on previous cycles.

Yes and they never say why he knew. He pretty much assumes that it is so. The people building the Crucible should find out something about it's functions but they don't due to plot-induced stupidity.
Again, TIM is not building the Crucible. So he needs the others to build it, which means them having full access to the plans works in his favour.

I don't think he was assuming, he seemed way too sure of himself to not have it backed up with some knowlege.  The people building the Cucible had a general idea of what it would do, they were able to determine, for instance, that it would put out massive amounts of energy, and that it would broadcast via Mass Relays, but I can suspend my disbelief enough to accept that they were unable to determine specifics without actually firing the thing first.  Same was true with the atomic bomb, as Hackett pointed out.  They weren't sure exactly how devastating it would be before actually using it.

[BlueStorm83]

Geneaux486 wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...

---  The crucible is a weapon of unknown origin and purpose.  The very fact that the Catalyst, who admits to controlling the reapers, suggests that you use it puts the idea into my head that no matter what I should NOT use it.

A leap of faith is required in activating it, to be sure, but for both Shepard the character and the player, it is the only way forward.  As we see in the cinematic afterwards, the Crucible behaves in the way the Catalyst told you it would.

Due to the lack of time-travel available to Shepard, we can't use a cutscene that plays afterward as evidence that the Crucible is a good thing.

---  Also, the Catalyst suggests the Destruction option.  He says that to destroy the Reapers, we have to SHOOT.  A.  PIPE.  That would never have occurred to Shepard had he not pointed it out.  If he does not accept the destruction of the Reapers along with all Synthetic Life, why would he offer it to Shepard?  He could have just stood there and let Shepard bleed to death.  Then the Reapers would have continued onward, and done what they've always done.

In a Low EMS scenario, Destroy is the only option available.  Why, if the Catalyst says that there are new possibilities, but he can't AND WON'T (low EMS dialogue) make them happen, would he then say "But if you shoot that pipe, all Synthetic Life is destroyed."  Because that is apparently what he wants.  No being suggests a course of action that he is actively trying to stop.

---  Make another observation:  If the Catalyst was a weapon, designed by organics, designed for the specific purpose of destroying the Reapers... why is there no control to destroy the Reapers?  Why, to destroy the Reapers, must you also destroy the Crucible???  Not a detonation, but you must cause it damage, you have to, in essence, sabotage it.

---  Anyway, these are reasons why I'd believe that the Crucible was a Reaper invention.  And these are also reasons why the EC should remove Starboy outright, instead of just "clarifying" him.

[David7204]

Goddamnit...this ending needs to give us something, something, goddamnit, about the Catalyst or the Crucible or the Reapers. I was so damn sure that there was something else going on, so damn sure that there was something we didn't know about the Crucible. And it sounds like they're just pushing all that to the side so they can show us their pretty epilogue.

[BearlyHere]

Velocithon wrote...

You know it's funny, at first I was all like "this ending is so bad" and I was on these forums for like 2 months actively protesting it.

Now, I just flat out do not care anymore. It's still awful and the entire game still feels horribly rushed, but I just don't care.

This is probably a good thing since the EC will either do nothing for me, in which nothing changes, or rekindles my love for the franchise.

I find myself of a similar mind. If the ending hadn't been so attrocious, I know I would be about halfway through another playthrough of all three. Bioware has been my goto game source since Baldur's Gate 2. I would love to have them rekindle the love.

[MIBO765]

David7204 wrote...

I am so scared they're just going to add a few lines of dialogue to 'answer' all the uncomfortable questions and then move straight to an epilogue...

The DLC is made to exlplain THEIR ending. What else do you expect?

[Geneaux486]

BlueStorm83 wrote...
Due to the lack of time-travel available to Shepard, we can't use a cutscene that plays afterward as evidence that the Crucible is a good thing.

Actually, we the players can use that as evidence that the Crucible is a good thing.  Shepard can't, hence why I pointed out that a leap of faith is required, and that the Crucible is the only option left to the character in the end.

Also, the Catalyst suggests the Destruction option.

He doesn't really "suggest" any of them, he simply tells you which functions your machine is capable of.

He says that to destroy the Reapers, we have to SHOOT.  A.  PIPE.  That would never have occurred to Shepard had he not pointed it out.  If he does not accept the destruction of the Reapers along with all Synthetic Life, why would he offer it to Shepard?  He could have just stood there and let Shepard bleed to death.  Then the Reapers would have continued onward, and done what they've always done.

By the Catalyst's own admission the goal of the Reapers is to ensure the continuity of organic life.  The Crucible represented both proof that the Reapers were no longer capable of this function because the device was more powerful than they were, and proof that organics had come up with a better solution to the percieved problem.  The Catalyst, remaining objective, was left with no choice but to acknowlege its own defeat and submit. 

In a Low EMS scenario, Destroy is the only option available.  Why, if the Catalyst says that there are new possibilities, but he can't AND WON'T (low EMS dialogue) make them happen, would he then say "But if you shoot that pipe, all Synthetic Life is destroyed."  Because that is apparently what he wants.  No being suggests a course of action that he is actively trying to stop.

Again, it's not what he wants.  The Crucible is proof that his solution will no longer work, even if destroy is the only option.  The Catalyst tells you this itself. 

Make another observation:  If the Catalyst was a weapon, designed by organics, designed for the specific purpose of destroying the Reapers... why is there no control to destroy the Reapers?  Why, to destroy the Reapers, must you also destroy the Crucible???  Not a detonation, but you must cause it damage, you have to, in essence, sabotage it.

I see it as being more akin to igniting powder to fire a gun.  Maybe that much power output just needs the chemical reaction of an explosion to get it going.

Anyway, these are reasons why I'd believe that the Crucible was a Reaper invention.  And these are also reasons why the EC should remove Starboy outright, instead of just "clarifying" him.

Removing the Catalyst means they'll simply have to insert some other expositional tool to fill in the remaining gaps of information.  None of your allies have access to that knowlege, and Harbinger would be a worse choice than the Catalyst as I doubt he would be objective enough to acknowlege his own defeat.  Really, the only thing that bothered me about the Catalyst was the form it took.  I get that they spent the whole game making the image of the child out to be important in Shepard's mind (as it should have been, because paragon or renegade Shepard would have some kind of psychological reaction to seeing so much death at the hands of a force as large as the Reapers), but I don't think they needed to make the Catalyst take on that shape as well.  I once saw someone suggest that it could have taken the form of Ashley or Kaidan, depending on who you left behind on Virmire, which I think would have been pretty cool.  Would have been hilarious if it wound up being Avina.  Actually I wouldn't even mind if it was just shapeless holographic static like Vigil was.  It's not a huge deal to me that it was the kid, just one of those things.

The DLC is made to exlplain THEIR ending. What else do you expect?

As it should be, seeing as how it's their story.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 24 juin 2012 - 02:02 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The DLC is made to exlplain THEIR ending. What else do you expect?

As it should be, seeing as how it's their story.

I totally agree.

Also I think you see it not that far off how I see it. Though I think you did better job of explaining it than I would. However I have to say I never thought about the form the catalyst took if would of been nicer using another form that now I have thought about it would not have been a bad idea but it never really bothered me that much in the first place. I can understand the desire for emotional tie in to the child he or she saw die and therefore bring forth his nightmares and what he has grown to fear seeing in his dreams over and over.

The visage of the child was probably picked by the catalyst due to being at the forefront of Shepards mind a person or character with strong emotions attached. It could of been probably better at least reaction from the fanbase drama wise if had taken an adult VI form. Atleast it would not be called starbrat/child by everyone who hates it, I wonder what other nickname they would of given it had that been the case of adult form... Probably something as unimaginative as starman lol.

The way I see it as mentioned elsewhere rather than retyping it all in different way... Food for thought.

Crucible is what the other races developed it has the three choices built into it, they were designed by the other races. The catalyst is the AI core of the citadel, the core is guarded by the keepers and they kill anyone who tries to enter where the AI aka core (catalyst) is housed (mentioned in ME that noone has even been that ddep inside the citadel due to the keepers). The other races through the cycles developed it (crucible) with this in mind and knew what the core aka catalyst was. In order for what the other races developed to target the reapers all at once through it's (catalyst) link to them.

The AI cannot use the constructed choices that the other races created aka the crucible because it was designed that way, same with indoctrinated cannot use it; all programmed into the crucible controls aka three choice structures. I imagine the crucible also altered the core (catalyst) to assist anyone who was not indoctrinated who happened to arrive once crucible and citadel are combined. The AI was not helping Shepard out of the kindness of it's heart, it was doing so because of the altered programming once interfaced with crucible.

The catalyst already had it's link to the reapers cut off prior by the code the protheans developed (part 1 of 2 part plan) and sovereign tried to re-establish. The crucible was designed to re-establish this link once the crucible and citadel merge at same time when overwritten the code to force catalyst to assist a non-indoctrinated person (who just happened to be Shepard and also part 2 of the 2 stage plan, link cut through code which is part 1 - crucible merged with AI core and link re-establishes in order to carry out purpose which is part 2) at which time it had no choice but to help and with it's link now established once more it carries out the choice (aka races who developed the crucibles functions) a non-indoctrinated person makes in this case Shepard.

The child form itself is merely the VI form of the AI core. Shepard is part organic and syntheic due to circumstances in ME2 at the start, therefore the AI could probably find a imagine in Shepards mind of form to take which just happened to be that of the child Shepard saw die early on, the death of the child that plagued his memories ever since with nightmares of that moment. As far as I see it the person who can use the crucible can be partly synthetic as long as his mind remains organic and free from indoctrination which probably is a chemical change within the neural pathways which the crucible can detect if present.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 24 juin 2012 - 02:56 .

[CuseGirl]

BlueStorm83 wrote...
Due to the lack of time-travel available to Shepard, we can't use a cutscene that plays afterward as evidence that the Crucible is a good thing.

---  Also, the Catalyst suggests the Destruction option.  He says that to destroy the Reapers, we have to SHOOT.  A.  PIPE.  That would never have occurred to Shepard had he not pointed it out.  If he does not accept the destruction of the Reapers along with all Synthetic Life, why would he offer it to Shepard?  He could have just stood there and let Shepard bleed to death.  Then the Reapers would have continued onward, and done what they've always done.

In a Low EMS scenario, Destroy is the only option available.  Why, if the Catalyst says that there are new possibilities, but he can't AND WON'T (low EMS dialogue) make them happen, would he then say "But if you shoot that pipe, all Synthetic Life is destroyed."  Because that is apparently what he wants.  No being suggests a course of action that he is actively trying to stop.

---  Make another observation:  If the Catalyst was a weapon, designed by organics, designed for the specific purpose of destroying the Reapers... why is there no control to destroy the Reapers?  Why, to destroy the Reapers, must you also destroy the Crucible???  Not a detonation, but you must cause it damage, you have to, in essence, sabotage it.

---  Anyway, these are reasons why I'd believe that the Crucible was a Reaper invention.  And these are also reasons why the EC should remove Starboy outright, instead of just "clarifying" him.

Removing the Starchild would mean they are admitting 14 lines of dialogue in the ending make no sense whatsoever and that on some level, the fans are "right". They will never do it.

[Benchpress610]

CuseGirl wrote...

BlueStorm83 wrote...
Due to the lack of time-travel available to Shepard, we can't use a cutscene that plays afterward as evidence that the Crucible is a good thing.

---  Also, the Catalyst suggests the Destruction option.  He says that to destroy the Reapers, we have to SHOOT.  A.  PIPE.  That would never have occurred to Shepard had he not pointed it out.  If he does not accept the destruction of the Reapers along with all Synthetic Life, why would he offer it to Shepard?  He could have just stood there and let Shepard bleed to death.  Then the Reapers would have continued onward, and done what they've always done.

In a Low EMS scenario, Destroy is the only option available.  Why, if the Catalyst says that there are new possibilities, but he can't AND WON'T (low EMS dialogue) make them happen, would he then say "But if you shoot that pipe, all Synthetic Life is destroyed."  Because that is apparently what he wants.  No being suggests a course of action that he is actively trying to stop.

---  Make another observation:  If the Catalyst was a weapon, designed by organics, designed for the specific purpose of destroying the Reapers... why is there no control to destroy the Reapers?  Why, to destroy the Reapers, must you also destroy the Crucible???  Not a detonation, but you must cause it damage, you have to, in essence, sabotage it.

---  Anyway, these are reasons why I'd believe that the Crucible was a Reaper invention.  And these are also reasons why the EC should remove Starboy outright, instead of just "clarifying" him.

Removing the Starchild would mean they are admitting 14 lines of dialogue in the ending make no sense whatsoever and that on some level, the fans are "right". They will never do it.

Funny, I thought no matter what kind of business you are in; “the customer is always right” rule is always applicable. Guess Walters/Hudson don’t abide by that principle.

[3DandBeyond]

Redbelle wrote...

Is art a process of creation? Or the final product?

I mean, yes, I can walk into a gallery and be surrounded by 'art'. But that's from a 3rd person perspective. When I draw I'm dimly aware that I'm producing something that could be considered art. But if it goes to pot and I make a hash of my subject then I see it as failed art. Whereas if I get everything I intended to portray, then it's successful art. That however is from an artists perspective. Putting that art into the public arena will generate a whole host of verdicts on what type of art it is.

Artistic vision is one part of the whole work of art but it's the most important-it's why something is created.  Any work is begun with an idea in mind.  It's one of the things most often criticized when speaking of ME3.  There seemed to be no view of an ending in mind, but authors often tend to write that first, at least in their minds. Paintings too tell a story from the perspective of the creator.  Any work of art, book, story, creation, is something meaningful to the creator.  Authors are told at least at first to write what they know.  So, if someone writes their story and I copy it, it wasn't ever my vision.  The same is true of any creative effort.  Now, it's true people do get inspiration from others-a lot of the Impressionist artists of the 1800's used to paint scenes together, but each person's vision of the work showed something that was uniquely them-right or wrong, good or bad.

How does that apply?  Well, 2 artists can paint the same scene and create a whole different flow-they see the scene differently.  However, if you are purposely copying a work, the flow, the angles, the perspective, it all looks the same-the use of paint may be different, but the vision (the why) is the same. 

In writing a story it's even worse.  Writers are drawing a picture with words, too, but it's very hard to make that written sentence say something different from the original especially when you are trying to copy the original.  And, the vision cannot be said to be anyone's but the person who originally wrote it.  It's worse when something someone else wrote is attached to some story for which it was never intended.  It'd be like JK Rowlings deciding that the ending to Harry Potter should be that Harry was really born on the planet Krypon and his real weakness or problem isn't Valdemort, but pieces of his home world, Kryponite.  He decides he wants to be a journalist/super wizard and is leaving town with an outfit his mom made for him.  That vision wasn't Rowlings'.  It was the vision of a guy named Jerry Siegel.  It may have meant something to Siegel, but isn't authentic for Rowlings and doesn't fit Harry Potter.

That's the problem with the Deus ex as it is in ME3.  They could have had a god in the machine, but did it need to be so blatantly copied from the Deus ex game?  Destroy, Control, Merge are the 3 choices in the Deus ex game. 

Even the game Deus ex took some things from literary pieces (the story of Medea, Helios), but it was not a direct copy of structural items such as the 3 choices and what each choice is.

Then you can go look on youtube for the Babylon 5 Chaos and Order ending conflict.  I can understand getting inspiration from things, but directly copying it stretches the meaning of the word art and it is using someone else's vision.

[Geneaux486]

Benchpress610 wrote...
Funny, I thought no matter what kind of business you are in; “the customer is always right” rule is always applicable. Guess Walters/Hudson don’t abide by that principle.

A friend of mine once said that the expression should be "The customer is always right in their own mind."  It's definetely fitting when applied to the ME3 ending controversey.