2621 réponses à ce sujet

[LiarasShield]

3dand I have my own reasons for not hating reject

[txmn1016]

Drammattex wrote...

MoonsKisu wrote...

I am now extremely satisfied with the ending (actually quite pleased) and want to thank Bioware for putting things right. I even hate the star kid less, he kinda made sense to me now. Thank you for all the work put into this EC. Saved the series for me.

Ditto. 

Loved it.

Bioware, thanks a million for the expanded ending. To me, it felt like the natural conclusion to the game I'd been playing.

When I finished the game prior to the DLC, I was confused and apathetic. 

This time I was engaged,  joyful, sad. Bittersweet. A whole gamut of emotions. The new clarity, more consistent Shepard behavior, and "concluding notes" truly made it into the game I had always hoped it would be.

Thanks, thanks, and thanks again. 

All of this.  This really felt like how the series was supposed to end.  Really great job, BW.  Keep up all the good work! 

[Archonsg]

LiarasShield wrote...

3dand I have my own reasons for not hating reject

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate it. it is my game canon, (head canon's something else) simply because it is the thing my Paragon / Renegade Shepard would do. my paragade / renegon Shepard would choose Control though.

I still want the complete victory ending though.

[3DandBeyond]

Archonsg wrote...

@bluestorm83
I choose the dialogue rejection.
The speech brought a tear to my eye as to me it was the "here is MY Shepard!" moment, to see not a beaten and spiritually dead Shepard but the one we have played with over the years.

Than came the "FU" moment and I was like "..."

I can accept why they did this, just forgive.

I do think the speech was awesome and as good as Hackett's was, I like Shepard's far better in the reject ending.  Hackett seemed to kind of take things over and seems to take tacit credit for unitiing everyone-it hit a really wrong chord with me.

Reject would be my choice, if it wasn't an FU thing.  Choosing it seemed to me to be giving into the reasons why it was put there.  They say it's because fans wanted it, and yet they know that's not what people meant.

I have no choice but to accept this ball of excrement that's got a new perfume.  It's fundamentally the same thing with a fresh new smell.  It requires acceptance of idiocy, the foundation of a flawed premise that never was the theme of ME and never was exemplified fully within ME, or a rejection of that idiocy that is a slap in the face.  That's not how businesses should treat their customers.  I can forgive because that helps me, but forget well I don't know if I'll ever be able to do that because this impacts all of my gaming purchases from here on out.  And gaming was my main form of entertainment.  I enjoyed pre-ordering games and getting release day delivery, but I'm gun shy and won't just dump my money anymore.  From now on companies must do what they say they will do, mean what they say, and deliver on promises or I will find other entertainment-I have Netflix. 

The big thing is in the past I think all of us tended to ignore the fact that game publishers are businesses.  This brought it all home.  We've seen the erosion of game quality, replaced by better graphics, but short or awful campaigns and games that opt for self-play (multiplayer).  ME did it differently-it was not an open sandbox and it wasn't a linear tale but it had aspects of both and at least superficially seemed player directed.  This was the biggest promise, unstated, but real, that Bioware made.  The game itself was the promise of what future games would be.  They broke that promise fully in the end and inserted their choices as to how the game should end.  We never truly directed anything because the game finally was intended to be about nothing that we ever experienced in the games prior.

ME hit home for me.  In 30 plus years of gaming, it was the game series I had been waiting for-I didn't know it until I played it, but there it was.  It was a story, I though I controlled somewhat.  And it was a game.  What I forgot was how closely this was all related to what is owned by the business and I forgot that things that were promised can be easily torn apart when business intercedes.  Foolishly, I thought Bioware might see that good business sense is making customers happy, and putting an unhappy one back into the happy column.  I thought they'd see that having broken promises before was not a good business decision and I kept a hope at the back of my mind that this time they might keep their promises.  I didn't expect it, but I hoped they would.

Again this comes down to the make or break deal for me-it's not for everyone but it is the one thing (not the only thing) I always hoped could happen and it's what closure meant for me.  The reject ending could have had it as an outcome-that could have been used to put a kink in the kid's program and allow the Crucible to become the weapon it was supposed to be.  There were so many things they could have done to give me closure.  I know I'm stupid.  I'm an older lady and I've earned that right.  I'm also a hopeless romantic. 

I didn't expect an ending where people run to each other across a meadow and embrace, but I did want just one final scene so that I could see that the Shepard I created was happy at last.  No ponies, no sugary sweet thing, no sap or crap, but some, "hey you're alive" face to face would have satisfied my romanitic heart.  In my opinion you don't make a story that features romances and that even tries to force them on people that are not interested in that in a video game (some have complained about this) and then think that has no importance at the end of the story.  Video games are visual-I want to see what happens.  I can imagine everything and grew up constantly told to use my huge imagination, but in this VIDEO GAME, I wanted to be given that visual element.  Otherwise, why not just go back to text adventures because you don't need to see it to SEE it.

I've never suggested the game have only one super happy ending-that's not realistic and isn't what others wanted, and I always wanted them to get the things they wanted for closure.  I just figured those of us that wanted a reunion, our closure might get that too.  I was very wrong.

[Paladin1337]

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

Wesker1984 wrote...

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

What the endings really mean:

Control: You fought your way through the Thorian, Sovereign, Saren, the Geth, Collectors and Cerberus. For what? So you can be the foreman on a series of construction projects for the buddies you left behind who are, by the way, all out partying on beaches and dancing in Afterlife. When you are not doing that, you are the equivalent of a third grade teacher breaking up fights between squabbling children. Oh, and even though the Reapers have to do what you tell them, after all you've been through with them, you know deep down, they hate you. P.S. Someone else is now sleeping with your love interest. Embrace eternity.

Synthesis: For three games you've been fighting against hulking machines purging the galaxy of all organic life. The enemy is a group of machines that are part organic and part synthetic. So you beat them by....wait for it...turning every living creature into an organic/synthetic concoction. Plus, everyone you know now has big green eyes. If they also grew red hair, they'd be Irish. So basically, you make everyone Irish. Also, meals now take hours. It's like eating unboned fish. "Waiter, there is a capacitor in my salad!"

Destroy: You've spent at least a game and a half learning that what separates your electric toothbrush from a sentient being is self-awareness leading to a "soul." It is a good thing you've been brushing up on your buddhist discourse. You're going to need it. Enter the biggest bully on the galactic playground, StarBrat. He's after a lot more than your lunch money, by the way. And, he's a clever kid too. Showing early aptitude, StarBrat has figured out that you might actually want to kill him off along with all of his Reaper pals. Obviously, a future Mensa member. You can get rid of the Scut Farcus of video games and all of his giant shrimp machines, but you have to kill off all of your new "soul-mates" to do it. Why? Because StarBrat says so, that's why. Duh! As sad as that is, at least after your done, you get to dig out of your personal rubble pile, dust yourself off and go watch a football game with Ashley (you know she loves football), or a National Geographic special with Liara. You get the picture. Plus, you won't miss any of your favorite shows from now on because you know you're not going to be in any Mass Effect sequels. In honor of your lost friend, you name your flatscreen "EDI."

Reject/"The Finger": Let's be honest. The best parts of the "original endings" of Mass Effect 3 were StarBrat, a gun, and unlimited ammo! Even more funny was watching YouTube video after YouTube video of people shooting StarBrat over and over and over again. Apparently, this moment of player improvisational freedom was not appreciated by certain Mass Effect 3 "ending writers." Shoot the StarBrat now and it's time for the biggest temper tantrum in galactic history (for both StarBrat and the writers). BratBoy screams, pouts, and takes his Reaper toys home along with all organic life. Except the Yagh. (By the way, don't Google 'Yagh.' Trust me.) We didn't spend a lot of time with the Yagh in the Broker DLC. But I do remember his twitchy ears. After watching what happens now when you shoot the StarBrat, I suspect that there are some other people at BioWare who also have twitchy ears. Just sayin'. The good news is that, like all Brats, Star and otherwise, eventually someone kicks their butt. It just won't be you. Or your friends. Or anyone else you know. It will be a big fat Yagh. With twitchy ears.

So you see, what could there possibly be to complain about?

You are not funny. And the green eyes mean they are all now part synthetics dont act like an ignorant by saying such negative things you worth more than that. Be happy we got the altered endings for free.

And dont get why peoples are so upset about the REFUSE option, during the entire game we hear more than once that we can't beat the Reapers with conventional means.

I respect your opinion.  I just don't agree with it.  At all.

What BioWare describes as further "closure" on the endings was, in fact, a complete rewrite of the "original endings."  The "original endings" were just empty cinematic vessels, and, frankly, you could have done almost anything and said you were just expounding upon them.  If that way you need to describe a rewrite so you don't have to concede that the endings were a major problem and strongly disappointing to your customer base, that's what you say.  You can verbalize that you were true to some undefined vision, but I don't think the EC can be called anything but a substantial rewrite. 

What I suspect happened here is that the portion of Mass Effect 3 that is the "ending" was not written by the same team that wrote other parts of the story.  In fact, I can't imagine that the people that gave us other parts of the story thought these "original endings" were remotely faithful to the prior art.  Not only were they artistically inferior (and they are) but they were also commercially foolish. 

There is art in video games.  No question.  But any product producer needs to understand its customers.  I actually think EA knows its customers.  Imagine EA putting out Madden NFL without the Super Bowl champion.  Not smart.  I think BioWare let its project get highjacked in creating the endings.  And I would love for someone in the media to tell that story.  It will take some real investigative reporting, but it is a story worth telling.

BioWare forgot that the Mass Effect franchise was innovative, funny, progressive, all while letting its consumer battle a detestible but clever enemy and shoot it in the face.  You got to make friends, form a team, and win.  The decision to depart from that successful formula was a serious error in art and marketing.  You can't look back on what has happened and conclude differently, in my opinion.  It was bad business, pure and simple. 

To me, it feels as if the endings were highjacked internally.  There is none of the creativity that other parts of the story reflect.  And the EC seems to me like those people who produced other, better parts of the narrative were called in to rescue the ending.  But all they could really do was put lipstick on a pig.  Now, all we are debating is whether we like the shade.  If you do, fine.  But for the first time in this trilogy, there was fan fiction that was really significantly better that the narrative BioWare created.  I wasn't an indoctrination theory believer.  (I believed that there was a story within BioWare about what happened to the creative process with the endings from the time ME3 was released.)  But the IT theory was creatively better than what BioWare produced; it was also responsive to customers. 

I think history will show that this episode did real damage to the brand.  Someone at EA may realize that producing Tiger Woods PGA Tour without Tiger Woods is, well, pretty silly.  And pointless.  And unnecessary.

But I am interested in some reporter telling the real story of the "Ending of Mass Effect 3."

In honor of PuppiesofDeath2's post I have named my flat panel monitor on my desk EDI.  I laughed so freaking hard at this, I was actually doubled over.  Hilarious bro, thanks for the laugh.  

And on to the "serious" stuff, of course the ending were hijacked, of course they screwed up.  We already knew this.  They knew this.  Hudson wanted to write the end himself orginally, and he messed up huge.  To give him credit, he probably knew what he wanted and it made sense to him, but there was a massive disconnect ont he execution.  What is really cool though is they took input you can actually read in THESE forums and included it in the extended cut.  The whole refusal ending was totally fan based, one of my posts even included comments that it was ridiculous that we wouldn't argue with starboy.  Hundreds of us screamed that this is BS, we would argue with him or just start breaking stuff on the citadel.  Youtube videos showed people shooting him over and over.  The writers took that and incorporated it and how cool is that!  Now THAT is a mass effect.  We complained, pointed out that WE are consumers, WE are the reason Bioware exists, and they responded.  

Some day the whole story will come out and someone will make a lot of money off that book.  The first person to retire or leave Bioware and say "heck with this nondisclosure contract, I will make three times the damages they sue me for in my book royalties!"    But regardless they at least tried to make it right, and for me they did.  I had an awesome experience playing it again and choosing the synthesis ending because the Catalyst (no longer star child to me) actually convinced me and it was what MY Shepard would choose.  Getting the most gain for the least loss, myself.  I didn't help the Geth and EDI just to sacrifice them.  And EDI's voice at the end confirmed my choice for me.  I thought it was great.  No I will play a more renegade style and blow all synthetics to hell, and then go watch some football with Ash, BREW HA HA!

[Paladin1337]

Why do people keep saying Shepard dies no matter what? It is quite clear in the "perfect" destroy ending that no matter how improbable, he is alive in the wreckage of the citadel when he takes a breath. So use your imagination and play out that scene that you all want where he has a speedy recovery in the med bay, then goes down to a nice meadow near the beach, the Normandy repairs its engines and other components damaged by the death of EDI and lands nearby, and he and Ash (or your lame love interest if you picked someone else) run across the meadow and kiss and make sweet love right then and there while not caring who is watching. Then the rest of the crew comes out and you all have a rocking beach party into the night. The end.

[Paladin1337]

Redbelle wrote...

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

@PuppiesofDeath2,
You made my day. Hits the points exactly and had me laughing.

Thanks to all of you guys for your generous remarks.  It was fun to write.  Cathartic too.

lol, maybe the control ending should have had an extra ending.

Shreaper: Hi LI. I promised I'd come back to you!

LI: Holy space hoppers! You enormous!

Shreaper: I know alot's changed baby but I want you to know I still love you and want to make a go of it. All of us do.

LI: All of u......... What's that dreadnaught doing here?

Shreaper1: That's me too. We're watching you in Stereo.

Shreaper2: We want to get back together again. And him

Shreaper3: And me!

LI: But your as tall as a skyscraper! How are we supposed to take a walk in the park like this?

Shreaper1: Don't worry about the park. I kinda stepped on it earlier on my way here.

Shreaper 3: My bad!

Add two more lines.

LI: Holy space hoppers! You enormous!

Shreaper: I know alot's changed baby but I want you to know I still love you and want to make a go of it. All of us do.  And as a bonus, ALL parts of me are enormous now.

Shreaper 3:  And I'm a sovereign class so I've got even more enormous goodies!

[Sydeno]

Sorry if I misunderstood but where can I see, in this DLC, that you have removed the A, B or C choices we were not supposed to get? Wasn't it supposed to fix the end?

Just adding a D choice is not an actual fix... It's like lying to someone and telling him : If I lie to you one more time with a better lie, you'll like it...

I can say loud and lear : I didn't like the first lie, when someone said we wouldn't have A, B or C choice... I still don't like neither the A, nor B, nor C, nor D... Trust me, your EC has not erased your lie...

How come anyone can have, just by choosing at the very end, the same endings than me...

[Wesker1984]

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

Wesker1984 wrote...

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

What the endings really mean:

Control: You fought your way through the Thorian, Sovereign, Saren, the Geth, Collectors and Cerberus. For what? So you can be the foreman on a series of construction projects for the buddies you left behind who are, by the way, all out partying on beaches and dancing in Afterlife. When you are not doing that, you are the equivalent of a third grade teacher breaking up fights between squabbling children. Oh, and even though the Reapers have to do what you tell them, after all you've been through with them, you know deep down, they hate you. P.S. Someone else is now sleeping with your love interest. Embrace eternity.

Synthesis: For three games you've been fighting against hulking machines purging the galaxy of all organic life. The enemy is a group of machines that are part organic and part synthetic. So you beat them by....wait for it...turning every living creature into an organic/synthetic concoction. Plus, everyone you know now has big green eyes. If they also grew red hair, they'd be Irish. So basically, you make everyone Irish. Also, meals now take hours. It's like eating unboned fish. "Waiter, there is a capacitor in my salad!"

Destroy: You've spent at least a game and a half learning that what separates your electric toothbrush from a sentient being is self-awareness leading to a "soul." It is a good thing you've been brushing up on your buddhist discourse. You're going to need it. Enter the biggest bully on the galactic playground, StarBrat. He's after a lot more than your lunch money, by the way. And, he's a clever kid too. Showing early aptitude, StarBrat has figured out that you might actually want to kill him off along with all of his Reaper pals. Obviously, a future Mensa member. You can get rid of the Scut Farcus of video games and all of his giant shrimp machines, but you have to kill off all of your new "soul-mates" to do it. Why? Because StarBrat says so, that's why. Duh! As sad as that is, at least after your done, you get to dig out of your personal rubble pile, dust yourself off and go watch a football game with Ashley (you know she loves football), or a National Geographic special with Liara. You get the picture. Plus, you won't miss any of your favorite shows from now on because you know you're not going to be in any Mass Effect sequels. In honor of your lost friend, you name your flatscreen "EDI."

Reject/"The Finger": Let's be honest. The best parts of the "original endings" of Mass Effect 3 were StarBrat, a gun, and unlimited ammo! Even more funny was watching YouTube video after YouTube video of people shooting StarBrat over and over and over again. Apparently, this moment of player improvisational freedom was not appreciated by certain Mass Effect 3 "ending writers." Shoot the StarBrat now and it's time for the biggest temper tantrum in galactic history (for both StarBrat and the writers). BratBoy screams, pouts, and takes his Reaper toys home along with all organic life. Except the Yagh. (By the way, don't Google 'Yagh.' Trust me.) We didn't spend a lot of time with the Yagh in the Broker DLC. But I do remember his twitchy ears. After watching what happens now when you shoot the StarBrat, I suspect that there are some other people at BioWare who also have twitchy ears. Just sayin'. The good news is that, like all Brats, Star and otherwise, eventually someone kicks their butt. It just won't be you. Or your friends. Or anyone else you know. It will be a big fat Yagh. With twitchy ears.

So you see, what could there possibly be to complain about?

You are not funny. And the green eyes mean they are all now part synthetics dont act like an ignorant by saying such negative things you worth more than that. Be happy we got the altered endings for free.

And dont get why peoples are so upset about the REFUSE option, during the entire game we hear more than once that we can't beat the Reapers with conventional means.

I respect your opinion.  I just don't agree with it.  At all.

What BioWare describes as further "closure" on the endings was, in fact, a complete rewrite of the "original endings."  The "original endings" were just empty cinematic vessels, and, frankly, you could have done almost anything and said you were just expounding upon them.  If that way you need to describe a rewrite so you don't have to concede that the endings were a major problem and strongly disappointing to your customer base, that's what you say.  You can verbalize that you were true to some undefined vision, but I don't think the EC can be called anything but a substantial rewrite. 

What I suspect happened here is that the portion of Mass Effect 3 that is the "ending" was not written by the same team that wrote other parts of the story.  In fact, I can't imagine that the people that gave us other parts of the story thought these "original endings" were remotely faithful to the prior art.  Not only were they artistically inferior (and they are) but they were also commercially foolish. 

There is art in video games.  No question.  But any product producer needs to understand its customers.  I actually think EA knows its customers.  Imagine EA putting out Madden NFL without the Super Bowl champion.  Not smart.  I think BioWare let its project get highjacked in creating the endings.  And I would love for someone in the media to tell that story.  It will take some real investigative reporting, but it is a story worth telling.

BioWare forgot that the Mass Effect franchise was innovative, funny, progressive, all while letting its consumer battle a detestible but clever enemy and shoot it in the face.  You got to make friends, form a team, and win.  The decision to depart from that successful formula was a serious error in art and marketing.  You can't look back on what has happened and conclude differently, in my opinion.  It was bad business, pure and simple. 

To me, it feels as if the endings were highjacked internally.  There is none of the creativity that other parts of the story reflect.  And the EC seems to me like those people who produced other, better parts of the narrative were called in to rescue the ending.  But all they could really do was put lipstick on a pig.  Now, all we are debating is whether we like the shade.  If you do, fine.  But for the first time in this trilogy, there was fan fiction that was really significantly better that the narrative BioWare created.  I wasn't an indoctrination theory believer.  (I believed that there was a story within BioWare about what happened to the creative process with the endings from the time ME3 was released.)  But the IT theory was creatively better than what BioWare produced; it was also responsive to customers. 

I think history will show that this episode did real damage to the brand.  Someone at EA may realize that producing Tiger Woods PGA Tour without Tiger Woods is, well, pretty silly.  And pointless.  And unnecessary.

But I am interested in some reporter telling the real story of the "Ending of Mass Effect 3."

And i respect your opinions when you are serious. I have nothing against you.

[tholloway93]

control seems the best ending to me now; anyone else agree?

[3DandBeyond]

tholloway93 wrote...

control seems the best ending to me now; anyone else agree?

Only if having Reaper nannies makes sense.  I can't see how anyone would think that people that had seen Reapers committing mass murder would think it's wonderful to have them as the galaxy police no matter who controls them.  Personally, I'd want them gone permanently.  They have the goo of people in them.

[tholloway93]

3DandBeyond wrote...

tholloway93 wrote...

control seems the best ending to me now; anyone else agree?

Only if having Reaper nannies makes sense.  I can't see how anyone would think that people that had seen Reapers committing mass murder would think it's wonderful to have them as the galaxy police no matter who controls them.  Personally, I'd want them gone permanently.  They have the goo of people in them.

it just seems to me that the cut scenes now seem to suggest this, ive always gone with destroy personally. I get the space police thing, but having the reapers on the side of the galaxy helping rebuild what they destroyed and creating probably the most advanced technology the galaxy would ever see seems like the 'best' solution / ending. I do agree however, personally I'd still want them gone. (But we may have thought that about the geth in ME1 too?)

[darkway1]

I'll be honest,the new ending DLC has made a massive difference to my views on the game.

Syntheses ending and it's direct link to crew member EDI was touching,it expressed gratitude that saving the galaxy could never deliver,it's was personal,I liked that.

Control ending just knocked me side way's.......it was awesome.

Destroy was acceptable now that we know that the universe gets rebuilt,relay's,blah,blah,blah....

The refuse ending was fair,some thing I'd never pick but for the hardened,my way or no way doom lovers it was a nice inclusion.

I think every ending is allowed a few cliffhangers or question marks,Shepard's breathing moment is still unanswered but I can live with that.

Apart from the refuse ending all the other ending's create a platform for further games in the Mass franchise,some thing the original ending didn't address,again some thing that I'm happy with.

If the original ending to Mass3 was not so obviously flawed,if Bioware and the industry hadn't responded to fair criticism with such distaste originally then gamers would not have been so bitter,overall I think that if Bioware considers it's product as art (it is) then just like any other art form it should be viewed and open to criticism...........in this case fair and just criticism has led to a far superior product.

I pretty much wanted the Extended cut to deliver answers,it did (for me) and I'm delighted that Bioware took the time to address issue's and delivering a new and superior ending.My faith has been restored and I'd like to say thank you Bioware for listening.

Modifié par darkway1, 28 juin 2012 - 06:59 .

[tholloway93]

darkway1 wrote...

I'll be honest,the new ending DLC has made a massive difference to my views on the game.

Syntheses ending and it's direct link to crew member EDI was touching,it expressed gratitude that saving the galaxy could never deliver,it's was personal,I liked that.

Control ending just knocked me side way's.......it was awesome.

Destroy was acceptable now that we know that the universe gets rebuilt,relay's,blah,blah,blah....

The refuse ending was fair,some thing I'd never pick but for the hardened,my way or no way doom lovers it was a nice inclusion.

I think every ending is allowed a few cliffhangers or question marks,Shepard's breathing moment is still unanswered but I can live with that.

Apart from the refuse ending all the other ending's create a platform for further games in the Mass franchise,some thing the original ending didn't address,again some thing that I'm happy with.

If the original ending to Mass3 was not so obviously flawed,if Bioware and the industry hadn't responded to fair criticism with such distaste originally then gamers would not have been so bitter,overall I think that if Bioware considers it's product as art (it is) then just like any other art form it should be viewed and open to criticism...........in this case fair and just criticism has led to a far superior product.

I pretty much wanted the Extended cut to deliver answers,it did (for me) and I'm delighted that Bioware took the time to address issue's and delivering a new and superior ending.My faith has been restored and I'd like to say thank you Bioware for listening.

im not sure if the synthesis ending choice would be viable for future games or not; they'd have to make sure every single being in the universe had glowing greeny skin and bright green eyes lol, assuming the future mass effect game would take into account your ending choice

Modifié par tholloway93, 28 juin 2012 - 07:02 .

[3DandBeyond]

tholloway93 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

tholloway93 wrote...

control seems the best ending to me now; anyone else agree?

Only if having Reaper nannies makes sense.  I can't see how anyone would think that people that had seen Reapers committing mass murder would think it's wonderful to have them as the galaxy police no matter who controls them.  Personally, I'd want them gone permanently.  They have the goo of people in them.

it just seems to me that the cut scenes now seem to suggest this, ive always gone with destroy personally. I get the space police thing, but having the reapers on the side of the galaxy helping rebuild what they destroyed and creating probably the most advanced technology the galaxy would ever see seems like the 'best' solution / ending. I do agree however, personally I'd still want them gone. (But we may have thought that about the geth in ME1 too?)

I am happy you found an ending you like so I mean no disrespect.  It's just that in accepting the reapers as some new saviour, rebuilding and creating everything, where's the real growth  of people come from.  People can just sit back and let the reapers do it all.  Sure the reapers might somehow teach people what they know, but that's no substitute for learning things yourself.  You learn also by your failures and people might even create something better than what the reapers have come up with if left to their own invention.  But there would be no need and Mordin said it to Shepard.  It's the reason the wheel was invented.  A need was seen and so strife created a need which created knowledge.  Using this same thing, there'd be no need for a wheel-you'd just call in a reaper to move the load you need moved.  This would lead to stagnation just as surely as Synthesis would.

[tholloway93]

3DandBeyond wrote...

tholloway93 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

tholloway93 wrote...

control seems the best ending to me now; anyone else agree?

Only if having Reaper nannies makes sense.  I can't see how anyone would think that people that had seen Reapers committing mass murder would think it's wonderful to have them as the galaxy police no matter who controls them.  Personally, I'd want them gone permanently.  They have the goo of people in them.

it just seems to me that the cut scenes now seem to suggest this, ive always gone with destroy personally. I get the space police thing, but having the reapers on the side of the galaxy helping rebuild what they destroyed and creating probably the most advanced technology the galaxy would ever see seems like the 'best' solution / ending. I do agree however, personally I'd still want them gone. (But we may have thought that about the geth in ME1 too?)

I am happy you found an ending you like so I mean no disrespect.  It's just that in accepting the reapers as some new saviour, rebuilding and creating everything, where's the real growth  of people come from.  People can just sit back and let the reapers do it all.  Sure the reapers might somehow teach people what they know, but that's no substitute for learning things yourself.  You learn also by your failures and people might even create something better than what the reapers have come up with if left to their own invention.  But there would be no need and Mordin said it to Shepard.  It's the reason the wheel was invented.  A need was seen and so strife created a need which created knowledge.  Using this same thing, there'd be no need for a wheel-you'd just call in a reaper to move the load you need moved.  This would lead to stagnation just as surely as Synthesis would.

i took no disrepect no worries but carrying on with the wheel analogy you used - surely we are already stagnating with cars etc? why move things around ourselves when we can put things in a van? we only learn things from asking people who know; each different 3 endings would make a drastic change to how any future ME game would turn out - destroy i feel it would be similar to the ME universe we have now, snythesis well we'd all be green wouldnt we! and control.. the universe you'd have to say would be far more technologically advanced due to the help of the reapers. Its an interesting topic to discuss i think; which makes me wonder if there are any future ME games which are set in the future, how it would work; i can only think that they couldnt take your end choice into consideration as the game would be needing to be 3 games in one

[3DandBeyond]

tholloway93 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

tholloway93 wrote...

control seems the best ending to me now; anyone else agree?

Only if having Reaper nannies makes sense.  I can't see how anyone would think that people that had seen Reapers committing mass murder would think it's wonderful to have them as the galaxy police no matter who controls them.  Personally, I'd want them gone permanently.  They have the goo of people in them.

it just seems to me that the cut scenes now seem to suggest this, ive always gone with destroy personally. I get the space police thing, but having the reapers on the side of the galaxy helping rebuild what they destroyed and creating probably the most advanced technology the galaxy would ever see seems like the 'best' solution / ending. I do agree however, personally I'd still want them gone. (But we may have thought that about the geth in ME1 too?)

Well, yes but  the big difference with the geth would be though they did kill, they didn't do it on such a huge scale and they did so not necessarily by their choice, and they did not turn people into goo and then carry them around in that state.  Shepard chooses control even as bodies still lay in piles in the Citadel.  If you think about the reapers though I could foresee someone wondering something like this, "they killed my family.  Which Reaper has them?  And I see conflict arising from this."

The geth on the other hand would most certainly be less appreciated mainly by the quarians, but they created their own problem and I do think in some ways that's a fair price to pay.  The geth are not going to do everything for them, but have formed a kind of symbiotic relationship in a way.  And most of the sins of the geth if you can call them that occurred in the past since for the most part they stayed near Rannoch.  It's a fair comparison, but not as direct as it might seem.

[3DandBeyond]

tholloway93 wrote...

i took no disrepect no worries but carrying on with the wheel analogy you used - surely we are already stagnating with cars etc? why move things around ourselves when we can put things in a van? we only learn things from asking people who know; each different 3 endings would make a drastic change to how any future ME game would turn out - destroy i feel it would be similar to the ME universe we have now, snythesis well we'd all be green wouldnt we! and control.. the universe you'd have to say would be far more technologically advanced due to the help of the reapers. Its an interesting topic to discuss i think; which makes me wonder if there are any future ME games which are set in the future, how it would work; i can only think that they couldnt take your end choice into consideration as the game would be needing to be 3 games in one

But the ability to learn still exists-it is necessary.  If the reapers came and did everything, it no longer would be necessary.  Just because cars exist doesn't mean we can't reinvent the wheel.  The car isn't doing everything for us-it serves a purpose.  A sentient being that created all of our technology or that created tech upon which all of what we know of tech is based upon, that then is doing everything for us stifles learning.

Back to the car-there is a good analogy.  We are reaching perhaps a crisis state.  We need to further our learning and find new ways because fossil fuels are limited.  If today some powerful being came down and dropped the solution down upon us, we'd use it, but in doing so we wouldn't learn anything.  It's about how we learn.  If you hand your child everything, your child never learns how to do for himself.  Maybe the mass relays are good things, but what about developing new things that might be better, faster.  Innovation comes from adversity.  Why have we stagnated as far as cars and the internal combustion engine.  Because gas was plentiful and relatively cheap.  This new adversity will mean we have to find new ways.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 28 juin 2012 - 07:17 .

[darkway1]

3DandBeyond wrote...

tholloway93 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

tholloway93 wrote...

control seems the best ending to me now; anyone else agree?

Only if having Reaper nannies makes sense.  I can't see how anyone would think that people that had seen Reapers committing mass murder would think it's wonderful to have them as the galaxy police no matter who controls them.  Personally, I'd want them gone permanently.  They have the goo of people in them.

it just seems to me that the cut scenes now seem to suggest this, ive always gone with destroy personally. I get the space police thing, but having the reapers on the side of the galaxy helping rebuild what they destroyed and creating probably the most advanced technology the galaxy would ever see seems like the 'best' solution / ending. I do agree however, personally I'd still want them gone. (But we may have thought that about the geth in ME1 too?)

Well, yes but  the big difference with the geth would be though they did kill, they didn't do it on such a huge scale and they did so not necessarily by their choice, and they did not turn people into goo and then carry them around in that state.  Shepard chooses control even as bodies still lay in piles in the Citadel.  If you think about the reapers though I could foresee someone wondering something like this, "they killed my family.  Which Reaper has them?  And I see conflict arising from this."

The geth on the other hand would most certainly be less appreciated mainly by the quarians, but they created their own problem and I do think in some ways that's a fair price to pay.  The geth are not going to do everything for them, but have formed a kind of symbiotic relationship in a way.  And most of the sins of the geth if you can call them that occurred in the past since for the most part they stayed near Rannoch.  It's a fair comparison, but not as direct as it might seem.

Shepard's main goal was always about ending dispute and bringing opposing forces together,to unite for a common goal.The Salarians and Krogan,Geth and Quarians,the Motly Crew in Mass2,even saving the Rachni queen......he bring's an end to the conflict......picking control/Synthesis is just more of the same,the end of conflict and uniting opposing forces for a common goal....peace.

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

3DandBeyond wrote...

tholloway93 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

tholloway93 wrote...

control seems the best ending to me now; anyone else agree?

Only if having Reaper nannies makes sense.  I can't see how anyone would think that people that had seen Reapers committing mass murder would think it's wonderful to have them as the galaxy police no matter who controls them.  Personally, I'd want them gone permanently.  They have the goo of people in them.

it just seems to me that the cut scenes now seem to suggest this, ive always gone with destroy personally. I get the space police thing, but having the reapers on the side of the galaxy helping rebuild what they destroyed and creating probably the most advanced technology the galaxy would ever see seems like the 'best' solution / ending. I do agree however, personally I'd still want them gone. (But we may have thought that about the geth in ME1 too?)

Well, yes but  the big difference with the geth would be though they did kill, they didn't do it on such a huge scale and they did so not necessarily by their choice, and they did not turn people into goo and then carry them around in that state.  Shepard chooses control even as bodies still lay in piles in the Citadel.  If you think about the reapers though I could foresee someone wondering something like this, "they killed my family.  Which Reaper has them?  And I see conflict arising from this."

The geth on the other hand would most certainly be less appreciated mainly by the quarians, but they created their own problem and I do think in some ways that's a fair price to pay.  The geth are not going to do everything for them, but have formed a kind of symbiotic relationship in a way.  And most of the sins of the geth if you can call them that occurred in the past since for the most part they stayed near Rannoch.  It's a fair comparison, but not as direct as it might seem.

I find myself in agreement with 3DandBeyond.  I don't want goo-filled Reaper cops who have spent three games killing people.  Now they are going to help me put a deck on the house?  No thanks.  After after a few years of Shreaper telling them they can't ever turn people into goo again, don't you think they are just going to tell him to take a hike?  Synthesis is the ultimate "space magic" ending.  Other than the fact that you no longer need a flashlight in the dark ("Close your eyes please, I'm trying to sleep") it doesn't make any sense and it is inconsistent with the rest of the series.  Mass Effect is about killing the galactic bad guys with your buddies with humor and style and against impossible odds.  Destroy is the only ending that comes close to that.  Then just imagine your own ending if you think it's unfair to EDI or the Geth.  (Legion was one of my favorite characters, but he's "dead" anyway.)  BioWare didn't give you the option of just punching the StarBrat in the nose and high-fiving Garrus.  So Destroy is the closest thing.  Then just don't give into some writer who tried to be the Stanley Kubrick of video games and imagine the rest of the story in a way that suits you.  For me, its a cookout with all my squaddies and a game of touch football in the backyard.  Jack keeps making the ball fly all over the place; Zaeed keeps shooting it.

[3DandBeyond]

I know I keep rambling on about this, but one of the reasons why this bothers me so much is because once again there seems to be an attitude towards fans that is distressing.

A fan asked Jessica Merizan before the EC was released if there would be a possible reunion with teammates. I know what the question meant and I am sure everyone knows what it meant. She said yes there would be. There isn't and people again asked her about it and she said that it's implied, clearly implied. You know damn well that isn't what the question was about, head canon. But, at the very least it would have been nice to know that up front that it was implied not shown. Or just say you can't answer that.

So, called on it, she now says that it was implied because people wanted to see different things in reunions. No one asked if it was implied-it was implied before. And the fact everyone wanted a different reunion is a cop out. But now to find out what really happened you have to follow her on twitter, because twitter is the place to go to explain what happens in Bioware games.

She seems like a heck of a nice person, but twitter is no substitute for in game content.

[3DandBeyond]

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

I find myself in agreement with 3DandBeyond.  I don't want goo-filled Reaper cops who have spent three games killing people.  Now they are going to help me put a deck on the house?  No thanks.  After after a few years of Shreaper telling them they can't ever turn people into goo again, don't you think they are just going to tell him to take a hike?  Synthesis is the ultimate "space magic" ending.  Other than the fact that you no longer need a flashlight in the dark ("Close your eyes please, I'm trying to sleep") it doesn't make any sense and it is inconsistent with the rest of the series.  Mass Effect is about killing the galactic bad guys with your buddies with humor and style and against impossible odds.  Destroy is the only ending that comes close to that.  Then just imagine your own ending if you think it's unfair to EDI or the Geth.  (Legion was one of my favorite characters, but he's "dead" anyway.)  BioWare didn't give you the option of just punching the StarBrat in the nose and high-fiving Garrus.  So Destroy is the closest thing.  Then just don't give into some writer who tried to be the Stanley Kubrick of video games and imagine the rest of the story in a way that suits you.  For me, its a cookout with all my squaddies and a game of touch football in the backyard.  Jack keeps making the ball fly all over the place; Zaeed keeps shooting it.

Yeah, exactly.  If I wanted more speculation I'd have just stuck with the original endings.  Synthesis is perfection now?  Only if you've always dreamed of being part reaper tech.  I want to be smart, I want to know everything, but I want to earn that knowledge and make my own mistakes along the way.  I don't learn anything if it's all given to me.  And I have no reason to learn if I can snap my fingers and bob the reaper comes a running.  If I becomes some child's view of perfect by having my DNA (same as the original) be converted to a hybrid thing, then I have no reason to try.  The things you don't earn for yourself have no value.

I still see Synthesis as abhorrent and a molestation-it's actually more so, because the kid says it couldn't be forced but that's exactly what happens.  The only person with a choice is Shepard and Shepard forces it on everyone else. 

[BlueStorm83]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I didn't choose any ending but Destroy because I saw that still as the goal all along. I have however watched all endings on youtube. My cousin played it and I watched other endings. I think Hale does a fantastic job in that refusal speech-Meers is wooden in my opinion and yes it's done well and I can't fault them for that ever. They do show the things they show well, if that makes sense. I just object still to the arbitrary nature of the costs of moral objection (because is this not also a morality play in many ways?), the definition of perfection and the audacity to suggest everyone sees it in one certain way, the devs' rewards to players who decided that death was the only authentic response to all this. I just think that in having moral objections to these things there should be some way forward.

I mean I picked Destroy because it was the reason we came there. This time around it really hurt because I could convince myself before that well EDI might make it, and knew the geth died. This time the kid hinted they might not die, but then there's EDI's name on the wall. I didn't see it the first time around and saw that in a post, so I went back and looked for myself and I was crushed. And then I noticed you don't see the geth in any slides, so they must have died too. I didn't just choose it so Shepard could live, but for me that was the most authentic choice. But it's apparently what they think is the most selfish. Shepard hasn't suffered enough. This is a video game, and that means you get video (visual content) and a game. Both of these indicate a win with pictures. But only those that wanted a dead Shepard got closure. You think it should end happier, well F U. That's what this game says to me.

I see Destroy as the only thinking quasi moral choice even with genocide. I don't want EDI and the geth dead, but at one point EDI did say she was prepared to die for an end to the reapers. I can convince myself she'd understand. The geth well I must do much the same thing. And I can't choose anything else. I won't give up the choice and let someone else make it sometime in the future-it is my choice. And I'm not offered any other way to reject it all other than to shut off the game.

I won't tell people, force people, or make people be children forever fated to not advancing as they see fit and in their own time-growing into themselves. All along my Shepard has been a real Shepherd to the future of the human soul. My Shepard helped people become alive and learn to care. My Shepard wouldn't want to be an example in the end of how wrong she was about all that, telling people that they aren't worth much without outside "direct intervention". All of Shepard's friends and teammates were flawed misfits, children. Shepard helped them become adults. So, my Shepard couldn't tell them they never were.

Just being stupid trying to explain why I never chose anything else.

---  I agree.  I think that the conclusions that they gave us still suck, in all those same ways.  I don't believe that any natural scenario is a no-win scenario.

But they give us one here.  It sucks, but since I'm never actually forced into one ending, I have to accept that.

But it sucks.

But I accept that the sucky situation is one that only has sucky options.  It's like making the best of a bad situation.  It succeeds as a narrative, but fails as what a videogame should be in the end - a triumph.

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

I suspect that there was a lot of corporate politics, ego, and internal intrigue at BioWare about how to fix the disastrous "original endings" of Mass Effect 3, which were objectively terrible. They in no way appear to be the work of the team that wrote the rest of this series, and, as I said, it feels like someone decided that they would use the popularity of the prior series installments to become the Stanley Kubrick of video games. The result was calamitous. Imagine now all of the palace machinations once the scope of the business disaster was realized. I am sure that people who had a good relationship with customers (fans) were sent out to do public damage control. I am not surprised that those people, well-intentioned, got out ahead of the people who created the problem. Ultimately, I suspect the writers who made the series great were hailed in to help triage the mess, but in a way that didn't completely embarrass those who made it. The result is the imperfect EC DLC we got. A rewrite of the endings for sure, but not so completely divorced from the "original endings" that you couldn't plausibly contend it was just a "clarification." End result, mediocrity. Not good business but perhaps necessary for the egos involved.

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

3DandBeyond wrote...

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

I find myself in agreement with 3DandBeyond.  I don't want goo-filled Reaper cops who have spent three games killing people.  Now they are going to help me put a deck on the house?  No thanks.  After after a few years of Shreaper telling them they can't ever turn people into goo again, don't you think they are just going to tell him to take a hike?  Synthesis is the ultimate "space magic" ending.  Other than the fact that you no longer need a flashlight in the dark ("Close your eyes please, I'm trying to sleep") it doesn't make any sense and it is inconsistent with the rest of the series.  Mass Effect is about killing the galactic bad guys with your buddies with humor and style and against impossible odds.  Destroy is the only ending that comes close to that.  Then just imagine your own ending if you think it's unfair to EDI or the Geth.  (Legion was one of my favorite characters, but he's "dead" anyway.)  BioWare didn't give you the option of just punching the StarBrat in the nose and high-fiving Garrus.  So Destroy is the closest thing.  Then just don't give into some writer who tried to be the Stanley Kubrick of video games and imagine the rest of the story in a way that suits you.  For me, its a cookout with all my squaddies and a game of touch football in the backyard.  Jack keeps making the ball fly all over the place; Zaeed keeps shooting it.

Yeah, exactly.  If I wanted more speculation I'd have just stuck with the original endings.  Synthesis is perfection now?  Only if you've always dreamed of being part reaper tech.  I want to be smart, I want to know everything, but I want to earn that knowledge and make my own mistakes along the way.  I don't learn anything if it's all given to me.  And I have no reason to learn if I can snap my fingers and bob the reaper comes a running.  If I becomes some child's view of perfect by having my DNA (same as the original) be converted to a hybrid thing, then I have no reason to try.  The things you don't earn for yourself have no value.

I still see Synthesis as abhorrent and a molestation-it's actually more so, because the kid says it couldn't be forced but that's exactly what happens.  The only person with a choice is Shepard and Shepard forces it on everyone else. 

All true.  Well said.