220 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

....then I can show how bunch of hypocrites the fan base is.

Lets see......Throne of Bhaal introduces a major plothole regarding the origin of the protagonist. Neverwinter Nights is run on plot holes. How about the almighty KOTOR, with Bastila "Plot Hole" Shan even turning to the dark side....nevermind the fact that she was clearly light sided, and preaches as so, or nevermind the ultimate light sided act of sacrificing herself to help you get away from Malak. Yeah, she becomes a dark sided fundamentalist all of a sudden just because the bad guy tortured her...yeah. Its either a plot hole or really bad contrived storytelling. As badly as Anakins turn to Vader was executed in Ep. III, at least he had proper buildup. Same thing with his turn back in Ep. 6.

Or how about the fact that the Closed Fist side of Jade Empire was a complete and total writing failure, so wildly inconsistant you cannot pin if the character was a true practictioner or a complete spawn of Satan who betrays everyone. Hell, another plot hole, why the hell would the Water Dragon even trust a Spirit Monk this completely treacherous? I don't know, so we can move the plot....lol. And don't say the "Lets go to Dirge" moment wasn't completely and utterly contrived.

Or how about the fact that DAO can hardly stay focused on the main plot? Maybe because the writers were lazy in that they were to busy fleshing the world to tell a great plot....or that the plot was so boringly generic that the side quests and stories were more enjoyable to do. Nevermind the fact that in most older Bioware games...the characters outside the dueteragonist and the tritagonist squadmates have little to no character development and any development they recieved is tying up loose ends unrelated to the main plot. Oh and most of the cast are one or two dimensional as well. Well DA2 brings in stronger character development, more human characterization, and better character participation in the plot, as well as a far less generic storyline, but also brings in bad plot holes because of th eneed to rush it out the door. And don't forget Awakenings completely lackluster story.

And I haven't got into the story flaws of ME1 and ME2.

And yet, I still LIKE the above games DESPITE their flaws.

The PROBLEM is the very notion that Bioware could do no wrong back then and everything is classic. No, they have done plenety wrong an dreally the plot formulas were recycled over and over and so was their character archtypes. Nevermind the formula they used for characters was flawed when it comes to real character development and even character importance because they have no story importance, like almost all of DAO's cast.

Or the notion that Bioware can no longer do right....because they are under EA and EA is evil and I supposed to hate them or I am not a good fan. In fact under EA, Bioware has had far more riskier storytelling, far better character developement, far better focus on the importance to make the characters more human, hell the dialogues gotten far better.

Yes, Bioware stumbled on ME3's ending, but quit acting like Bioware is on the decline. We get it, it wasn;t very good. But at least they are trying to ADDRESS the problems with a 1.9 GB free DLC....however, their old games, the "classics: have major storytelling problems as well and they are far from flawless.

[Leafs43]

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

[Fireblader70]

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

To be fair, I don't think a lot of people know what it means...

[alec1898]

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

Yeah I stopped reading when OP said bastila turning to the dark side is a plot hole.

[txgoldrush]

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

No, ME3 ending bashers do not know what it means...hell the ending is so ambigious plot holes really can't even be proven.

However having Bastila completely step out of her character in KOTOR is a plot hole.

[thesnake777]

About Kotor
You know nothing of the Dark Side....I also find your lack of Faith disturbing.
Deep down she knew the sith way was the right way. Embrace it..Embrace it.

About Bioware.
There have always been minor inconsistencies in the older games. I think the big difference in the reactions was what was advertised and promised to the fans up to two weeks before launch and what was given. This may seem strange but that fact that so many people are upset about it, shows how much people love the company. *shrug*

[txgoldrush]

alec1898 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

You keep using the phrase "plot hole", but I don't think you know what it means.

Yeah I stopped reading when OP said bastila turning to the dark side is a plot hole.

It is....simply put.

Bastila would easily been tortured to death or given herself to the force in that situation. While she did have some inner conlfict before her turn, the way that its presented, she would never have turned dark side in that manner.

Revan, Anakin, and Jacen Solo turns were far better done.

[Greed1914]

True, the older games weren't flawless either, but they also didn't bungle those nearly as bad as this. And seeing as how ME3 was Bioware's next game after DA2, which caught a lot of flak, it's pretty easy to see why people think the company is on a decline. Even more so when many looked at DA2 as a fluke and believed the ME3 would restore their faith in the company.

[Xellith]

Not to mention all the hype over this "epic" game being lies.

[RobotMilk]

Word.

I didn't fallow some of that stuff in the middle, and I don't know how in the hell you remember all that s*** about Jade Empire, but I agree with your basic thesis.

[txgoldrush]

Greed1914 wrote...

True, the older games weren't flawless either, but they also didn't bungle those nearly as bad as this. And seeing as how ME3 was Bioware's next game after DA2, which caught a lot of flak, it's pretty easy to see why people think the company is on a decline. Even more so when many looked at DA2 as a fluke and believed the ME3 would restore their faith in the company.

No, they bungled many elements of Jade Empire pretty badly, such as the moral system.......presenting it as morally grey but making it a sblack and white a spossible in practice.

And really, fans simply want to ignore their clear flaws.

[txgoldrush]

Xellith wrote...

Not to mention all the hype over this "epic" game being lies.

and why does everything have to be "epic"?

[DonYourAviators]

lol

[julio77777]

Yes.

[Jadebaby]

DonYourAviators wrote...

lol

This^

[MstrJedi Kyle]

Well clearly Bastilla turns to the Dark Side because they have cookies. That's why every one turns. I thought this was common knowledge.

[Ryven]

This thread reminded me of something. Where is Spiderman? I haven't seem him all day.

[Greed1914]

DarthKilby wrote...

Well clearly Bastilla turns to the Dark Side because they have cookies. That's why every one turns. I thought this was common knowledge.

I have a shirt that confirms this. 

[thesnake777]

DarthKilby wrote...

Well clearly Bastilla turns to the Dark Side because they have cookies. That's why every one turns. I thought this was common knowledge.

Seriously... 

[txgoldrush]

Speaking of plot holes, BGII had a major one...a tvtrope contributor actually nails it on the head.


Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal retcons the protagonist's childhood so that their mother was a priestess of Bhaal who belonged to a cult that was trying to sacrifice Bhaalspawn children to effect his resurrection. This ceases to make sense when you try to figure out the timeline: The game takes place in the year 1369 and the protagonist is twenty years old at the beginning of the first game a year earlier and was an infant when the cult was active. But Bhaal, who had sired his mortal children to be fuel for his eventual resurrection after his foreseen death, died in 1358. So in fact the evil cult was trying to sacrifice the children while he was still alive, which at the very least would mean they had misunderstood his plans very badly. ◦ More to the point, the flashback also reveals that the protagonist was apparently conceived during the Time of Troubles, which also happened in 1358. So the main character suddenly is ten years old?

[FedericoV]

txgoldrush wrote...

And yet, I still LIKE the above games DESPITE their flaws.

In my opinion, plot holes has never been the problem. Most ending to serial fiction does not make a lot of sense in term of logic and structure because of the collaborative and/or episodic nature of the media. Allways in my opinion, the community started to really focus on plot holes when Bioware, the media and some apologetic fans started to talk about "artistic integrity" and entitlement whatever they mean.

Imho, differently from the other Bioware games you quoted (maybe with the exception of DA2) ME3 ending managed to be a failure on three fundamental levels:

- It's a failure in strict gaming terms, since it does not recognize all the work the player has done in the rest of the series. Standard has been raised in that department in the last years and the game promised a lot of branching. I reckon that they have adressed that problem with the EC and I'm happy of that.
- It's a failure on a storytelling level, since it thematically discard what the player has achieved in the previous chapters of the story. In the last ten minutes, the authorial narrative takes over the player narrative. It's happened in past games but the devs were smart enough to sacrifice their artistic vision to support natural players expectation. I guess that they have not solved that problem with the EC and I'm not happy of that... but it could still work.
- Most importantly, it's a failure on an emotive level. We start to use reason when our emotions does not cloud our judgement. If suspension of disbilief (wich imho is an emotive state of mind) is stopped, you start to see the cracks in the wall. ME3 ending (at least starting with the arrivar of the StarChild) is dry, conceptual and involute. I hope they could fix that in the EC because at the end is just about smoke and mirrors.

That's why people are so angry (not to mention that it's the third PR failure on a row after DA:A and DA2 with all the lies they told the fans during the development of those games). And they have many right to feel so in my opinion.

Modifié par FedericoV, 23 juin 2012 - 08:56 .

[txgoldrush]

FedericoV wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

And yet, I still LIKE the above games DESPITE their flaws.

In my opinion, plot holes has never been the problem. Most ending to serial fiction does not make a lot of sense in term of logic and structure because of the collaborative and episodic nature of the media. Allways in my opinion, the community started to really focus on plot holes when Bioware, the media and some apologetic fans started to talk about "artistic integrity" and entitlement whatever they mean.

Imho, differently from the other Bioware games you quoted (maybe with the exception of DA2) ME3 ending managed to be a failure on three fundamental levels:

- It's a failure in strict gaming terms, since it does not recognize all the work the player has done in the rest of the series. Standard has been raised in that department in the last years and the game promised a lot of branching. I reckon that they have adressed that problem with the EC and I'm happy of that.
- It's a failure on a storytelling level, since it thematically discard what the player has achieved in the previous chapters of the story. In the last ten minutes, the authorial narrative takes over the player narrative. It's happened in past games but the devs were smart enough to sacrifice their artistic vision to support natural players expectation. I guess that they have not solved that problem with the EC and I'm not happy of that... but it could still work.
- Most importantly, it's a failure on an emotive level. We start to use reason when our emotions does not cloud our judgement. If suspension of disbilief (wich imho is an emotive state of mind) is stopped, you start to see the cracks in the wall. ME3 ending (at least starting with the arrivar of the StarChild) is dry, conceptual and involute. I hope they could fix that in the EC because at the end is just about smoke and mirrors.

That's why people are so angry (not to mention that it's the third PR failure on a row after DA:A and DA2 with all the lies they told the fans during the development of those games). And they have many right to feel so in my opinion.

The Closed Fist side of Jade Empire also fails in the same three ways you mentioned. It fails gameplay wise because to doesn't allow the player to not play a far less evil CF character without the puppy kicker ending. It fails storytelling wise because the implementation was so inconsistant and haphazard, and it fails emotionally because it forces you once again to be the most evil possible without allowing the player to actually foillow the discipline in how they want. Ruthless Open Palm characters aren;t allowed as well.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Not to mention all the hype over this "epic" game being lies.

and why does everything have to be "epic"?

How many other trilogies can you just name off the top of your head that involve all of your decisions affecting the world in some form or another, with those choices then carrying over into the sequels and affecting those as well?

Also, the endings are complete horse****.

Modifié par o Ventus, 23 juin 2012 - 09:06 .

[thesnake777]

txgoldrush wrote...
The Closed Fist side of Jade Empire also fails in the same three ways you mentioned. It fails gameplay wise because to doesn't allow the player to not play a far less evil CF character without the puppy kicker ending. It fails storytelling wise because the implementation was so inconsistant and haphazard, and it fails emotionally because it forces you once again to be the most evil possible without allowing the player to actually foillow the discipline in how they want. Ruthless Open Palm characters aren;t allowed as well.

Forgive me, its been a while since I have played Jade empire..but when was the morality system said to be a nutrel system?  Open palm and closed palm were just things that went with the theme behind the game. It was basicly the same system that they had in Kotor...just with a asian theme. 

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Not to mention all the hype over this "epic" game being lies.

and why does everything have to be "epic"?

How many other trilogies can you just name off the top of your head that involve all of your decisions affecting the world in some form or another, with those choices then carrying over into the sequels and affecting those as well?

and why do all the decisions have to affect the world?......why can't they be personal, like the fate of your companions or even the fate of another soul?

Th eproblem with gamers is that they mostly judge how good something is by how "epic" it is.