220 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

thesnake777 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
The Closed Fist side of Jade Empire also fails in the same three ways you mentioned. It fails gameplay wise because to doesn't allow the player to not play a far less evil CF character without the puppy kicker ending. It fails storytelling wise because the implementation was so inconsistant and haphazard, and it fails emotionally because it forces you once again to be the most evil possible without allowing the player to actually foillow the discipline in how they want. Ruthless Open Palm characters aren;t allowed as well.

Forgive me, its been a while since I have played Jade empire..but when was the morality system said to be a nutrel system?  Open palm and closed palm were just things that went with the theme behind the game. It was basicly the same system that they had in Kotor...just with a asian theme. 

Smiling Mountain and the promotional materials....even stating the Closed Fist path is not necessarily evil.

And really, how is stepping out of your station and focusing on self advancement always "evil"? Hell, how is perserving  harmony always "good"?

The problem is that made it too much like KOTOR.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 23 juin 2012 - 09:09 .

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Not to mention all the hype over this "epic" game being lies.

and why does everything have to be "epic"?

How many other trilogies can you just name off the top of your head that involve all of your decisions affecting the world in some form or another, with those choices then carrying over into the sequels and affecting those as well?

and why do all the decisions have to affect the world?......why can't they be personal, like the fate of your companions or even the fate of another soul?

Th eproblem with gamers is that they mostly judge how good something is by how "epic" it is.

Wow.

Way to completely dodge the point.

Also nice generalization. Because you know so many people.

[FedericoV]

txgoldrush wrote...

The Closed Fist side of Jade Empire also fails in the same three ways you mentioned. It fails gameplay wise because to doesn't allow the player to not play a far less evil CF character without the puppy kicker ending. It fails storytelling wise because the implementation was so inconsistant and haphazard, and it fails emotionally because it forces you once again to be the most evil possible without allowing the player to actually foillow the discipline in how they want. Ruthless Open Palm characters aren;t allowed as well.

I admit I never played the closed fist path and I never felt the need to document about it. I played open palm and I have warm memories of the ending of that game even if I do not remember the specific at all (see, emotions clouding judgement). I guess that the different reactions can be explained in many ways and there is not hypocrisy:

- JE has never been a popular franchise.
- JE is an older game and in those days the expectation were lower (even because Bioware wasn't using marketing in such an invasive and viral way).
- JE wasn't a trilogy and you have not to expect 5 years to see how the tale ended.

[txgoldrush]

wiggles89 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
Yes, Bioware stumbled on ME3's ending, but quit acting like Bioware is on the decline.

They stumbled well before the ending when they introduced the idiotic Crucible plot device and created a bunch of continuity problems like Cerberus having an abundance of resources, what they did with the geth-quarian conflict, and several characters acting horribly out of character.

Cerberus had an abudnace of resources in ME2, or did you completely ignore the Lazarus Project.

And who acts out of character?

And whats worse thatn The Crucible project.....actually making the feared Reapers be able to be beaten conventionally, which destroys their whole point of then being a overpowering threat.

[Feixeno]

The problem really is the ending doesn't fit the rest of the story. Not to mention the rest of the game is on a sliding scale of "Good to Excellent" so when out of nowhere we get this "2001" sequence in a "Star Wars" sci-fi, it's jarring.

Not to mention there was a lot of pre-release hype about how epic the ending is. which turned out to be all lies.

Everything in the mass effect franchise was building up for an epic ending, that ended horribly.


I understand you want to be a fan, but you don't have to accept and defend everything to be a fan. I love Bioware, and I loved ME3 until the last five minutes. I want to keep giving Bioware my money, but I feel like after DA2 and ME3's ending sequence they might not be making games I'm interested in playing anymore.

Modifié par Feixeno, 23 juin 2012 - 09:19 .

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
Yes, Bioware stumbled on ME3's ending, but quit acting like Bioware is on the decline.

They stumbled well before the ending when they introduced the idiotic Crucible plot device and created a bunch of continuity problems like Cerberus having an abundance of resources, what they did with the geth-quarian conflict, and several characters acting horribly out of character.

Cerberus had an abudnace of resources in ME2, or did you completely ignore the Lazarus Project.

And who acts out of character?

And whats worse thatn The Crucible project.....actually making the feared Reapers be able to be beaten conventionally, which destroys their whole point of then being a overpowering threat.

A large number of Cerberus employees are killed in Retribution, and in the same novel, they lose a vast amount of their funds.

Miranda acts out of character, for starters. Legion also acts out of character on Rannoch. Then you have Hackett, who is otherwise a military genius, suddenly turning into a blathering idiot, and Anderson, who's either the world's ballsiest hero, or even dumber than Hackett.

Yes, a genius ploy. Pour ALL of our resources into this ancient object that may or may not work. Never mind that they don't ever learn what it's potential functions may be despite them building it.

The Reapers are massively retarded too. Every cycle up to now has been contributing to the Crucible plans, and the Reapers haven't seen it or heard anything about it? What happened to the Reapers having indoctrinated citizens in high-ranking positions?

Modifié par o Ventus, 23 juin 2012 - 09:22 .

[thesnake777]

txgoldrush wrote...

Smiling Mountain and the promotional materials....even stating the Closed Fist path is not necessarily evil.

And really, how is stepping out of your station and focusing on self advancement always "evil"? Hell, how is perserving  harmony always "good"?

The problem is that made it too much like KOTOR.

I honestly dont remember the promotional stuff and apart from a few things closed fist was not that bad, Except for wild flower and I guess deaths hand, if you look at that as bad.  The majority of biowares games have gained themes from Kotor if you havent noticed. the good and evil morality system has been in every game since Kotor..not so much in the DA series they have been messing with it there but the basic principle stays the same. Also Jade empire was not one of Biowares "hits", in comparsion to the other games of its generation. 

[txgoldrush]

Feixeno wrote...

The problem really is the ending doesn't fit the rest of the story. Not to mention the rest of the game is on a sliding scale of "Good to Excellent" so when out of nowhere we get this "2001" sequence in a "Star Wars" sci-fi, it's jarring.

Not to mention there was a lot of pre-release hype about how epic the ending is. which turned out to be all lies.

Everything in the mass effect franchise was building up for an epic ending, that ended horribly.

And how is the game "Star Wars Themed"?

And yes, we get it, they underdelivered on the ending, but once again, Bioware fans want to completely ignore past flaws of their old games.

And companies lie about their products all the time.

Bethesda lied about th eending variations to Fallout 3.

CD Projeckt also fibbed on the number of TW2 endings...hell they had to FIX THEIR ENDINGS as well.

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

And how is the game "Star Wars Themed"?

Where, in any part of his post, did you see the word "themed"?

[1337haxwtg]

Sure, there are plot holes in any given game. The issue with Mass Effect 3 was abandoning the established universe, failing to make diverse endings with meaning to our choices, and utterly destroying the point of the series.

As for Star Wars, it seems every character in the universe is willing to throw away their morals if they do so much as stub their toe. It has never made sense, but who cares? Lasers and ****.

I also don't think NWN was ever intended to be as driven by story or canonical fact explanations. It was a fantasy RPG, so "magic did it" was an acceptable choice there.

I can't really speak on the Dragon Age part, as it has been a while since I played it. I don't recall any plot issues, but I really enjoyed the gameplay too much to care. I never bought DA2.

Modifié par 1337haxwtg, 23 juin 2012 - 09:27 .

[thesnake777]

Also adding onto the Cerberus funding...If you remember EDI mentions in ME2 that the lazurs project hurt Cerberus funding for that year. TIM literally spend everything he had equipping shep.
another thing that needs to be pointed out is that retribution happen at the very least a few weeks after the events of ME2..which was only 6 months prior to the beginning of ME3.. TIM was able to get funding and have an army with the ability to openly engage everybody all over the galaxy in what? 5 months.
I have not even tried to factor in the events that happen on omega into that timeline.....

[txgoldrush]

wiggles89 wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...
Cerberus had an abudnace of resources in ME2, or did you completely ignore the Lazarus Project.

They were crippled in the Retribution novel, or do you not pay attention to those sorts of things?

And who acts out of character?

Wrex, for one. Remember when he said that the genophage isn't what's the krogan, rather it's the krogan that are killing the krogan? He believes the complete opposite in ME3 without any sort of explanation whatsoever. Moreover, in ME1 and ME2 he was rather pragmatic, but in ME3 he becomes a raving zealot.

And whats worse thatn The Crucible project.....actually making the feared Reapers be able to be beaten conventionally, which destroys their whole point of then being a overpowering threat.

Let's funnel all of our resources into a a device that we have no idea what it does. hurrdurr.

Also, there's the idiocy of the Reapers never discovering the Crucible even though it was worked on by numerous cycles.

Oh wait, nevermind that Wrex completely admonishes Wreav and his philosphy, and nevermind that he is a complete foil of him. Nevermind that Wrex seeks to unite the clans. If you want to call Wrex a zealot...compare him to Wreav....you will find that he is no zealot. Nevermind he actually gives a salarian credit for curing the genophage. Yeah, some zealot.

And what makes you think they can't build back up using Reaper tech? Which they were using to build an army. Nevermind that extensive knowledge TIM has in both ME2 and ME3.

Nevermind the fact that they admit that they are taking ashot at building a device they do not know what it does...its not like they don't admit it.

[thesnake777]

1337haxwtg wrote...
As for Star Wars, it seems every character in the universe is willing to throw away their morals if they do so much as stub their toe. It has never made sense, but who cares? Lasers and ****.

Alright on a serious note about bastillia. She was extremly arogant and looked down on everybody...bealiving that she was "special" because of her battle meditiation...She was also attracted to revan and through out the plot line had issues controlling her emotions..examples being when she dealt with her faimily..and her wanting revan..(if revan was a guy) and going with the jedi mindset, everything leads to the dark side..Malak shows up tells her how the sith do things and what do we get? a convert. Welcome to the Empire baby! 

Modifié par thesnake777, 23 juin 2012 - 09:34 .

[FedericoV]

txgoldrush wrote...

Nevermind the fact that they admit that they are taking ashot at building a device they do not know what it does...its not like they don't admit it.

C'mon, that's retarted no matter how you put it. There were countless way to justify the crucible in a more elaborated manner that could make some sense.

Modifié par FedericoV, 23 juin 2012 - 09:30 .

[1337haxwtg]

Also, the resources being thrown into the crucible were monetary and scientific. Military assets were still being put to use elsewhere. Why would you ignore a possible solution to your problems just because it might not work?

[Feixeno]

"Star Wars Themed" in that it's not a hard scifi, it's an adventure scifi like Star Wars. Up until the final moments, you can always get the best outcomes for everyone and so on. It's not a grimdark type of experience. Mass Effect is dark, but it's also got trappings of lightheartedness. The ending is grimdark because apparently dark = art.

This lie was important to me, because I really cared about the product. Up until the last five minutes, I thought this was one of the best games I've ever played. I've been playing video games for two decades now, and Mass Effect was my favorite franchise ever. So it took all the joy I had and ruined it. I was planning on making a new Shepard in ME1 and playing the entire trilogy over again, but instead I was just so upset I couldn't pick up and play other video games for a while.

So yeah, I think the lie was important to me. I was expecting a really outstanding and cathartic conclusion to the series.

By the way, getting into apologetics over every little thing doesn't protect or help Bioware you know. It weakens them.

Modifié par Feixeno, 23 juin 2012 - 09:32 .

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

Oh wait, nevermind that Wrex completely admonishes Wreav and his philosphy, and nevermind that he is a complete foil of him. Nevermind that Wrex seeks to unite the clans. If you want to call Wrex a zealot...compare him to Wreav....you will find that he is no zealot. Nevermind he actually gives a salarian credit for curing the genophage. Yeah, some zealot.

And what makes you think they can't build back up using Reaper tech? Which they were using to build an army. Nevermind that extensive knowledge TIM has in both ME2 and ME3.

Nevermind the fact that they admit that they are taking ashot at building a device they do not know what it does...its not like they don't admit it.

Wrex and Wreav being foils has nothing to do with anything. Congratulations on the empty point. In ME1+2 he's starkly against curing the genophage, but from his appearance in ME3, all the way to the end, he's "CURE CURE CURE CURE".

Also, Reaper tech can't buy Cerberus the couple thousand sets of armor and weapons their troops need. Seriously, Reaper tech isn't the philosopher's stone.

The Alliance admitting to building the Crucible doesn't negate how f**king stupid it is.

[txgoldrush]

thesnake777 wrote...

1337haxwtg wrote...
As for Star Wars, it seems every character in the universe is willing to throw away their morals if they do so much as stub their toe. It has never made sense, but who cares? Lasers and ****.

Alright on a serious note about bastillia. She was extremly arogant and looked down on everybody...bealiving that she was "special" because of her battle meditiation...She was also attracted to revan and through out the plot line had issues controlling her emotions..examples being when she dealt with her faimily..and her wanting revan..(if revan was a guy) and going with the jedi mindset that every leads to the dark side..Malak shows up tells her how the sith do things and what do we get? a convert. Welcome to the Empire baby! 

Still if she is in love with light sided Revan....plot hole still stands.

Nevermind shw had solid moral principles despite her emotions and flaws....unlike Anakin or Jacen. Sorry, but her turn is much less developed than those two characters.

[1337haxwtg]

thesnake777 wrote...

1337haxwtg wrote...
As for Star Wars, it seems every character in the universe is willing to throw away their morals if they do so much as stub their toe. It has never made sense, but who cares? Lasers and ****.

Alright on a serious note about bastillia. She was extremly arogant and looked down on everybody...bealiving that she was "special" because of her battle meditiation...She was also attracted to revan and through out the plot line had issues controlling her emotions..examples being when she dealt with her faimily..and her wanting revan..(if revan was a guy) and going with the jedi mindset that every leads to the dark side..Malak shows up tells her how the sith do things and what do we get? a convert. Welcome to the Empire baby! 

It has been a long time since I played that as well. But look at how often the "turns to the dark side and maybe turns back" theme plays out in Star Wars as a whole. They tell that story over and over, and it almost never makes sense. Anakin's turning was even poorly played out if you consider all of the details.

"I'll do anything to protect whats-her-face!"

*force chokes whats-her-face*

I can't take Star Wars seriously as sci-fi, or even a story, now that I'm all grown up. The old republic games (idk about the mmo) are still one of my all-time favorite games, and the story was a major part of that.

[txgoldrush]

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Oh wait, nevermind that Wrex completely admonishes Wreav and his philosphy, and nevermind that he is a complete foil of him. Nevermind that Wrex seeks to unite the clans. If you want to call Wrex a zealot...compare him to Wreav....you will find that he is no zealot. Nevermind he actually gives a salarian credit for curing the genophage. Yeah, some zealot.

And what makes you think they can't build back up using Reaper tech? Which they were using to build an army. Nevermind that extensive knowledge TIM has in both ME2 and ME3.

Nevermind the fact that they admit that they are taking ashot at building a device they do not know what it does...its not like they don't admit it.

Wrex and Wreav being foils has nothing to do with anything. Congratulations on the empty point. In ME1+2 he's starkly against curing the genophage, but from his appearance in ME3, all the way to the end, he's "CURE CURE CURE CURE".

Also, Reaper tech can't buy Cerberus the couple thousand sets of armor and weapons their troops need. Seriously, Reaper tech isn't the philosopher's stone.

The Alliance admitting to building the Crucible doesn't negate how f**king stupid it is.

Oh wait, didn't Wrex pull a gun on Shepard in ME1 because he was trying to destroy the base that is working on curing his people? Doesn;t seem like he is against curing the genophage there. Nevermind that even in the first game, he openly hates the Salarians and distrusts the Turians.

And how can you prove that they cannot afford armor and weapons for thousands? What f it doesn;t cost as much as you think?

And yet beating the Reapers conventionally is even more stupid.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 23 juin 2012 - 09:45 .

[thesnake777]

txgoldrush wrote...

Still if she is in love with light sided Revan....plot hole still stands.

Nevermind shw had solid moral principles despite her emotions and flaws....unlike Anakin or Jacen. Sorry, but her turn is much less developed than those two characters.

Oh please anakin was a little sissy in the movies....he flip flopped all over the place and whined constantly, his turn was a joke..."oh sidous your in trouble, now I need to slaughter the childern"... Yea he slaughter the sand people village after his mother was killed then he went back to normal like "nothing happened" he kills count dooku because sidous tell him too..then its back to the jedi ways. then Bam kill all of the childeren........(I will admit order 66 was the best part of the movie...I clapped and cheered but I digress)
Also the fact that shes in love with a light sided revan would not be a problem with the Sith however with the Jedi.."love leads to jeaously jealousy leads to anger anger leads to hate hate leads to the dark side"
as I said everything leads to the dark side. The fact that she already had major issues with it and it is shown that she really does not have a strong will (on the ship she amits that she wanted to you tell him so he would stop shocking her) Combine that with the fact she does not like the council and starts to doubt them throughout the plot line......Sith Pary Time...

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Oh wait, nevermind that Wrex completely admonishes Wreav and his philosphy, and nevermind that he is a complete foil of him. Nevermind that Wrex seeks to unite the clans. If you want to call Wrex a zealot...compare him to Wreav....you will find that he is no zealot. Nevermind he actually gives a salarian credit for curing the genophage. Yeah, some zealot.

And what makes you think they can't build back up using Reaper tech? Which they were using to build an army. Nevermind that extensive knowledge TIM has in both ME2 and ME3.

Nevermind the fact that they admit that they are taking ashot at building a device they do not know what it does...its not like they don't admit it.

Wrex and Wreav being foils has nothing to do with anything. Congratulations on the empty point. In ME1+2 he's starkly against curing the genophage, but from his appearance in ME3, all the way to the end, he's "CURE CURE CURE CURE".

Also, Reaper tech can't buy Cerberus the couple thousand sets of armor and weapons their troops need. Seriously, Reaper tech isn't the philosopher's stone.

The Alliance admitting to building the Crucible doesn't negate how f**king stupid it is.

Oh wait, didn't Wrex pull a gun on Shepard in ME1 because he was trying to destroy the base that is working on curing his people? Doesn;t seem like he is against curing the genophage there.

And how can you prove that they cannot afford armor and weapons for thousands? What f it doesn;t cost as much as you think?

And yet beating the Reapers conventionally is even more stupid.

And if Wrex survives Virmire, shocker, he agrees with Shepard that curing the genophage isn't the right way to go about things. It's called character development. Except here it's character assassination. Please, learn basic literature.

How far into your ass did you reach for that excuse? Buying thousands of sets of armor, and thousands of guns (Or parts for the guns, if Cerberus is manufacturing them on their own) will cost them a LOT of money. buying thousands of ANYTHING will cost them a LOT of money. Seeing how the effectively went bankrupt at the end of Retribution, they should barely be keeping together, if not disbanded.

Yeah, conventional victory is so stupid. That's why we're both told and shown numerous examples of it.